Episode 184

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:21.452)
I'm sure you have been warned as a parent about the terrible twos. ⁓ Are you currently in the midst of raising kids this age or are you well past it or are you fearing it? It's going to happen. I know when we were raising kids, when our kids were young, ⁓ that popped up all the time is this ⁓ fear about the toddler years.
Well today we wanted to bring on an expert just specifically about those toddler years and how when you parent that differently, it will change your relationship all the way through the teenage years and into the adult years. So that's why we wanted to bring on the Instagram ⁓ influencer author, Devin Koontzman. She's currently got almost a million ⁓ followers on social media and she's just now coming out with her new book, Transforming Toddlerhood.
She is a powerhouse in modern parenting and is on a mission to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is a terrible stage. ⁓ And I love this conversation that Sarah and I get to have with her where she kind of helps you reframe how you see these toddler years and actually make them a very wonderful, sweet time with your little kids, but also how those skills that we are doing with our toddlers are so important for them and for us on how we're going to change.
our relationship going forward, how we're going to co-create our life together. So whether you've got a kid that is a toddler or whether you know someone who has toddlers ⁓ or whether, you know, your kids already in the senior years, these skills, they go across all ages. ⁓ And if you know somebody for sure, take a moment to like and share this, this episode in particular, because ⁓ it is going to transform how they're interacting with their toddler. So take a moment ⁓ and enjoy this conversation we have with Devin Kuzmin.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.222)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, when we look back at our parenting, right, and the way in which we have grown as parents, I would think, like, for me personally, one of the biggest stages where I really had to just kind of change how I saw behavior and how I saw ⁓ what our kids was doing was those toddler years, right? Yeah. I know we even went into it, like a lot of parents.
maybe you I only you totally had this idea. ⁓ Yeah, but I definitely had that idea of no, they're about to become to this is gonna suck. Yeah. Right. And then and then I remember you were telling me it doesn't have to suck. Yeah. Yeah. No, ⁓ I got ⁓ kind of got thrown into working with zero to five at work. Yeah. And found out how brilliant these little people are and learn stuff. And I thought how do people parent without this information?
Yeah, which leads us to today and why I'm really excited about today. Yeah. Yeah. So today we want to ⁓ welcome Devin Koonsman to the podcast. Hello Devin. And Devin, the reason why we wanted to have you on is you are like the expert when it comes to the toddler years. And I know so many people listening to this podcast. want to, whether you have a toddler or not, you are going to want to hear what Devin has to say because

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (1:1.666)
Hi, thanks for having me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:18.992)
those toddler years, what's so vital about them and what Devon's gonna talk to us about is they're the foundation of not only how your kid is gonna learn certain skills about how to ⁓ manage their emotions and how to communicate better, but it's also the years that we as parents are gonna grow a lot and it's gonna set the stage for those teenage years. So whether your kid is currently in it or not,
What we're gonna talk about today will help you through all those years. And Devin, we're also excited. I mean, you're killing it on Instagram. You got about a million followers on there, which is awesome, so congrats. ⁓ But you also have a book coming out called Transforming Toddlerhood. And in that book, you're gonna give so many fantastic tips and tricks and techniques to help people through those hard times. So what inspired you to write the book?

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (1:53.870)
Thank

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (2:8.494)
Yes. Well, you know, I started transforming toddlerhood in 2018 and since 2019, I've had a lot of publishers ask me to write a book, but it just never felt right because I really wanted to write a book that was going to make a big difference for parents and just didn't feel like I was quite there yet. But then with so many years of receiving so many emails and DMs from parents asking the same things over and over again, I started to realize that there wasn't just one
trusted resource that parents could go to to get all of their questions answered about parenting kids ages one to five. So everyone is just getting burned out, scrolling Instagram, searching Google, all of these things. So I decided to create basically the equivalent of what to expect for toddlerhood, right? A comprehensive, ⁓ easy reference guide that really covers all of the challenges of toddlerhood from the challenges that we face as parents and caregivers like
wanting to stay calm or maybe having a parenting partner that's not on the same page as you, ⁓ understanding the sensory system, decoding behavior, understanding expectations all the way through challenging behaviors, whether it's ⁓ screen time or whining, crying, or ⁓ maybe introducing a new sibling, parental preference, all of the things. I have a chapter for each one with FAQs and scripts and

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:9.370)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:27.482)
Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (3:33.740)
tips and everything you need to know. And I just realized that we needed one trusted resource that also included the sensory system and behavior red flags, because the second biggest question I always get is, is this normal? And so parents just want to know, is this normal for this stage? So I was ⁓ really one include behavior red flags, so parents could tell if behavior might be getting outside the realm of what's typical during ⁓ toddlerhood.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:47.536)
Yes, my god. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:0.630)
Especially when you have that first kid. Yeah, I remember there's a lot of times I was looking at Sarah like is this right? ⁓ Is it what what is what she doing now weird? You know, if you could you speak to us, know, I still today when I'm coaching parents You know Devon there's there's still parents who see those those two-year-old times as the terrible twos, right?

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (4:3.277)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:19.610)
you know, and they kind of have that, that picture and they're, actually kind of gripping like, no, they're about to turn two and kind of talk about how you reframe that. Cause I feel like it's the same kind of journey we had to go through. ⁓ where eventually the two year old time was fantastic. Like we, we thought that was great, you know, but, it tells how you see those, ⁓ the years going into the toddler years and how you reframe them.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (4:36.034)
Mm-hmm.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (4:41.902)
Yeah, well, the thing is, that toddlerhood has a really bad reputation, right? We hear terrible twos as soon as our kids born basically, or if two seems to be going fine, then people are saying, just wait until they're a three-nager, right? So it's like, it's just we can't escape this. And so what is so important to understand that yes, while

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:54.637)
I know. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (5:3.694)
Childhood is definitely a challenging developmental period for both adults and for kids and we can get more into that but it's also a critical developmental period and it truly sets the foundation for the rest of your child's life in terms of their brain development and their emotional regulation and resilience. It's very very important developmental period. So if we are just white-knuckling it through and wishing away these days and these years to get out of this, you know terrible period
then we miss this beautiful opportunity to support our child in growing and learning the skills that they need to be successful in life. And honestly, the opportunity for us to grow and learn alongside them.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:46.916)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Cause I think there's that you're highlighting this big as a parent, you're thinking, okay, they're having this really big meltdown. And like you said, is this, is this too long of a meltdown? Is this too big of a meltdown? Am I doing the right thing for this meltdown? And in the midst of that, as a parent, you're very, you can be very dysregulated. You can be, you're exhausted. ⁓
you know, maybe have a newborn year. I mean, I was up all night with a newborn, then I've got my toddler melting down ⁓ and, I'm working, I'm exhausted and holding all of those things. This care for how do care for myself? How do care for my toddler, my preschooler in the middle of this? And I love the reframe that you give it about it being communication. And I think that for me, ⁓
⁓ When I saw it through a different lens than this terrible child terrible little child I've got to fix right like they're broken. I need to fix them ⁓ That like it was communication. It sort of eased up this it led me into curiosity and going ⁓ what's happening right now? I would love to hear you talk kind of more about that communication and what's happening or how you look at that with toddlers ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (6:55.564)
Yeah, so you know, when it comes to behavior, it's so easy to want to label it as good or bad, right, and look at it through this dichotomous lens because that's how our brain makes sense of the world, right, by labeling things. It's just part of how our brain categorizes things. However, it can be extremely unhelpful when it comes to behavior because truly behavior is communication. It's communicating ⁓ your child's level of development.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:2.683)
Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (7:22.040)
their level of skills or their lack of skills on life experience. They're ⁓ communicating your child's feelings and emotions and their needs, whether it's sensory needs or basic needs such as ⁓ being hungry or being tired, or if it's developmental needs ⁓ that are very prominent during this developmental period like the need to experiment and explore and move into.
be independent and feel capable and have a sense of control and feel powerful. These are all needs that all humans have, but they're very prominent and drive your child's behavior ⁓ between ages one and four, one to five. It's very important part of what's happening. So if we just label these behaviors that challenge ⁓ our illusion of control, ⁓ if they just, they're constantly challenging us or these behaviors that
really we find unacceptable or ruffle our feathers, if we call them bad, we're more ⁓ likely to react harshly, ⁓ to use shame, blame, guilt, judgment, and fear ⁓ to really ⁓ respond in a way where we're feeling triggered, we're feeling upset, and then everyone is having a hard time. ⁓ Whereas if we look at behavior as communication, as you were saying, it leads to this idea of curiosity. Curiosity is probably one of our
most powerful parenting tools that just lives right inside us, right? It's this ability to get curious of what could be happening here. Why ⁓ would my toddler do this? What could they be communicating? And they're communicating any of those things that I just said. And quite frankly, you don't need to know exactly what they're communicating all the time. You just need to know it's communicating something that they're not, quote unquote, being bad.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:50.010)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:8.380)
⁓ Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I want to say something. Do it. This is a point. knew you were about to go. was about to go. was about to go. It was so good. I wanted to go. Okay. This is one those points where I want to say this bridges into the teenage years so beautifully because it's the exact same thing. If you see their behaviors instead of like all my bad teenager who just blew curfew. Yeah. You know, if you move in with that curiosity, that communication, the stuff you're telling parents,
It just works through all the years. And so just wanted to highlight that. you're saying there. Yeah. Let's put that right. That same lens. Look, let's look through that same lens for these teenage years, because it's exactly it, you know, and they can also be dysregulated and they're communicating a need or a want or
they might not even realize what they're trying to communicate. And for us to stay in that space of curiosity. okay. Well, was just going to say similar to that was that's where I learned it. What Devon's saying is I learned at that early age, like, this isn't bad or good when they just screamed and then threw that toy, they were trying to tell me something and I want them to be curious. So I'm going to model curiosity to them.
So then they can also be curious about what they were trying to say to me. What was it that they really wanted? And if you're able to start doing that these early years, Devin, like you're saying, then now I'm really skilled at it. So when my teenagers do something similar, maybe they're not throwing a toy across the room, but maybe they're rolling their eyes or you know, making some, then I'm like, what's going on? And I want them to think the same thing as well.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (10:40.014)
⁓ Yeah, you know, the whole point of toddlerhood, which is also very similar to the teen years, is really developing a sense of self, becoming an individual. ⁓ teens are going through that for a second time. Toddlers are going through it for the first time. And ⁓ specifically in toddlerhood, why this is so hard is that toddlers…

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:48.474)
Mmm, yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (11:1.976)
have these competing needs where they want to be independent, they want autonomy, but at the same time, they're reliant on us to meet their physical ⁓ and emotional needs. And that can bring up a lot of big behaviors and a lot of big feelings. then think if you're like developmental drive inside of you is saying you need to be independent, you need to be your own person, but you lack a lot of control over your life. mean, toddlers really

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:28.922)
Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (11:31.139)
get to make very few decisions about how their life goes, right? Like we're telling them and then they're just doing stuff in the in-between. So that's why we tend to see so many big emotions and so many big behaviors because when you couple all of this lack of control and these competing needs with the lack of brain maturation and they don't have the emotional regulation skills to deal with all of this, that's why toddlerhood can just feel so hard.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:34.331)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:59.536)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. I love that. And I think it is really hard for parents. And we do feel I often even with you know, was I was immersed in this age group and all this and I still had so many moments when I thought, what what do I do right now? Or am I doing the right thing? And you you get you know, you second guess yourself or you have moments where you really do regret what you just did. You know, like I lost it right there. ⁓
I know that you had mentioned a discipline reset tools and I want to kind of hear about that because I think as a parent you often do feel a little lost ⁓ in ⁓ what do I do? Like what what guideposts do I use when I'm dealing with a toddler preschooler? Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (12:40.460)
Yes. Well, I mean, think the biggest thing, if we just think of it on a macro level, like a guidepost, the most important mindset shift to remember is that we shouldn't punish toddlers for having a lack of skills, to having a lack of brain maturation. We want to support them ⁓ in ⁓ meeting the ⁓ limits and expectations that we set. We want to support them in learning the skills that they need to be successful.
because you wouldn't punish a child for falling down when they're learning to walk or when they're learning to ride a bike. Like you wouldn't punish a child for the lack of physical skills. So why would we punish a child for their lack of emotional skills? But it's so much harder because those skills are like intangible, right? They're soft skills, they're intangible. And so ⁓ it makes it so much ⁓ easier to have unrealistic expectations. And so when you think about

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:13.520)
Yes, yes, yeah. ⁓
Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:27.172)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:35.418)
Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (13:38.275)
Discipline and you're like, okay gosh. Okay. So if I'm not gonna punish behavior I'm gonna help my child give them the support that they need I like to talk about the recipe for healthy effective discipline or what I call it developmentally smart discipline, which is creating connection Setting limits and following through and teaching skills when you have all three of these things present That's where you're going to see success in transforming behaviors because you're using connection and curiosity ⁓
⁓ to meet your child where they're at, but you're not permissive. You're ⁓ setting limits and helping your child follow through on them. But in the calm moments, you're also teaching skills so your child can learn and grow. ⁓ And then things will get easier and easier as they practice.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:13.018)
Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:24.700)
Yeah. And I love how you point to learning other skills. Like my brain immediately goes to, you know, we've watched our kids play soccer and nobody thinks that they're going to learn how to dribble a ball or shoot a ball just by going to a couple of practices. Like my daughter is now nine and she's been playing soccer for like five years and she's still practicing some of the same skills over and over and over. And yeah, they're fine tuning it and getting them a little sharper, but they're still dribbling and shooting and passing and, it's like,
that's how skills are learned, whether they're soft skills or they're soccer skills. And I think lots of times as parents in those early years, because we are afraid that we're messing up, we do think our kid is acting weird and outside of the norm in some way, we feel like we've got to get control of the situation. And so I think that's what kind of exasperates those early years. And I think if we approach it the way you're talking, then I don't get into that habit.
where then our relationship is based on us being adversaries and me trying to be against you. It's all about me supporting you, coming alongside you, connecting with you, because that's really what the kid wants ⁓ all through their life, even into their adult years. They hope you will take that approach. And so like, ⁓ I'd love you emphasizing that. ⁓ And with you and your own kids, ⁓ how did you kind of, I'm curious, how did you stumble upon this, Dev? And like, did you just start reading?
Did you just like, ⁓ watch your kids and make it up? How did you come to this?

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (15:49.935)
⁓ That's such a great question. Well, first of all, I do have a degree in psychology with a focus in child development. I'm also an ICF certified coach, but I spent a long time as a nanny for families all over the world. And in the middle of that, of ⁓ working with all these families all over the world, I took a break and I was also the executive director of a nonprofit that had an orphanage and a farm in Rwanda.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:3.610)
⁓ yes, ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (16:18.666)
And so I have had the ⁓ really great pleasure of working with so many different kids in so many different cultures ⁓ on completely opposite ends of ⁓ life. ⁓ And ⁓ through all of that, I started to notice, especially in the manning, that there is a lot of miscommunication happening between parents and their toddlers, that parents would come home from work at the end of the day, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:18.704)
Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (16:46.058)
Maybe their child would be taking a bath and then their child would just get weepy or start testing limits or something like this and Parents would get so frustrated and then now Toddlers having a tantrum at a meltdown and parents are having a meltdown and kind of feeling like why they even come home ⁓ but that made the child cry more because the child just really wanted to be close to their parents and so it just I realized there's a lot of miscommunication and then inside of that I also had my

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:8.284)
Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (17:15.174)
own ⁓ moment because when you're ⁓ in a position of where you're trying to keep everything going smoothly, for a long time I really felt that if the child's behavior was quote unquote good and they were listening that I was doing a good job, I was great at my job, I'm succeeding, I'm succeeding, I'm doing it, right? And then if they were quote unquote bad and melting down and running amuck and then I was like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:30.574)
Mm hmm. Yes. Yep. Yes, I've been there. I've been there. Yeah, yeah, I've been there. Yeah. Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (17:44.515)
man, I got to get control of these kids until one day I was on the floor in tears. This four year old was also in tears. Everyone was so upset and I just realized what are we doing here? We are just human beings doing our best ⁓ and all of this behavior is communication and the more time you spend trying to control your child ⁓ and ⁓ use like your power to like coerce them into

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:46.737)
Yep.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (18:13.890)
compliance, then it's going to erode the connection and the relationship until there's depending on the child, if you have a more meek and mild tempered child that they just kind of like slip into people pleasing. If you have a strong will child like I was dealing with, everyone's just miserable with each other all the time. And so ⁓ once I realized all of this, that's how transforming toddlerhood was born.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:20.006)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:31.804)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:39.172)
Yeah, man, that's great. Yeah, I love that. And you started to go in this direction. I want to pull on that thread a little bit ⁓ of instead of kind of saying, I'm going to go do this to this child, ⁓ but like we're all in this together.
And I've seen that in your stuff of just kind of, ⁓ are doing this with our child. And that's something, that's a message we personally also really love. How are you coming alongside your child to manage these moments or learn these skills or, just grow? ⁓
So you asked me kind of what that looks like. Yeah. Well, I would like to just hear your, I would just like to hear you say, you know, just explain that, you know, cause I think especially with little kids, mean, I think it's a little easier buy in with an older kid, but with a little two year old, you're kind of going do something like, how do I, how do I collaborate with my two year old? know, cause I'm, know, you see yourself in this space of here I am taking care of you, teaching you.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (19:28.578)
Ha ha ha ha.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:36.378)
But what does that look like? Cause I've heard you kind of mention it and I'd like to dive into that. even to add to that, it's kind of like lots of people in those early years, Devin, they get into doing it for their kid or doing it to their kid. And of course we're teaching doing it with your kid. And I think that that's one of the biggest ⁓ like changes. You start to set up that dance with your kid that I'm with you. I'm not doing it for you or to you. So yeah, what does it look like for you? ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (20:0.089)
Yeah, this is great. So, I mean, what I hear you describing is basically the difference between trying to control your child and be in control versus being in charge. ⁓ Being in charge means you're being the leader, but as a leader, you can still partner with your child because parenting is a relationship. Just like all the other relationships in our lives, it goes better when we partner with people. That doesn't mean that your child's in control. It means you're in charge and they get to be part of the process.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:9.166)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:23.781)
Yes, yep.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (20:29.538)
So one visualization I always like to use to really explain this is imagine a small stream or a brook and you and your child are on each side of it and there's a little bridge. ⁓ And you are standing on one side and you're saying, come here right now. Come here right now. You're trying to control them and you're saying, if you don't come here then you're not going to have dessert. You're not going to watch Bluey, whatever it might be.
using fear, ⁓ know, blame, shame, guilt, judgment, and fear to like try to get them over the bridge versus being in charge and using connection and allowing your child to feel seen and heard and see you as part of their team. Instead of an obstacle in the way you walk over the bridge, come next to your child, hold hands and walk over the bridge together. However, it might not always be at your pace. It might be at
the child's pace, will not look like our pace. So what this looks like in everyday life is like when you have a child ⁓ who maybe ⁓ you said no about something and your child ⁓ bit you or something like this. This is where you might say, ⁓ you bit me because I said no. That was upsetting and I won't let you bite me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:26.970)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:42.895)
You ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (21:54.723)
Biting hurts. It's unsafe. And then, you you work through those emotions, let them come out, and then you teach a better way next time. Or say that it's time to leave, right? ⁓ Or time to go take a bath, whatever it might be. Instead of demanding that your child come to the bathtub, ⁓ you come to them and you say, hey, it's time to take a bath.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:2.960)
Yes.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (22:18.604)
Are we gonna do bubbles tonight or colors? know, like you can like throw a little tab into the water and make colors or throw a glow stick in or something like that. Or you might be like, ⁓ are we going to race ⁓ or do you want a piggyback ride? That's what it looks like to come alongside your child.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:23.184)
Yep, yep, yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:32.602)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that, Deb. I remember there was a specific moment.
when our kids, our two oldest were really young. And we came out of a restaurant in downtown Tulsa and it was kind of late, the kids were tired. And I remember I had one was a baby still or kind of maybe like six months to a year, I'm holding that one. And then the other one I'm grabbing her hand because we're downtown, it's kind of unsafe. And that's when she for the first time ever pulled away from me and then like was just gonna run across the street.
And immediately I was filled with fear. And so I did what any parent I think would do. I grabbed her hand really hard and then she did what any kid will do. She pulled away. And so we started doing this power struggle where I'm grabbing harder, she's pulling harder. So then I pick her up and just like get her next to me. At that point, she starts like kicking and hitting me. ⁓ And now I'm getting really frustrated. And so by the time we get into the car,
I'm, you there's this thought like every parent has like, I'm trying to save your life here. goodness sakes, you know, like show some gratitude kid, you know, and, and, I knew on the drive home, I could feel that fear, that shame, all that stuff that I had towards my daughter. And I could see her in the backseat. She looked a little worried, like that she had broken something with me ⁓ and she knew I was upset about it. And so that night I immediately began to game plan. How do I help us do that better tomorrow?
You know, so the next day I said to her, Hey, let's go outside and let's ⁓ play across the street. Cause there was like a little play thing across our house and she's like, yeah, let's do it. And so she just runs across the street and now this street wasn't that busy, but she ran across it. I knew it was safe. So I just got to the end of the driveway and said, honey, I'd love to play with you, but we're only going to do it when we're safe. So I'd like you to come back over and I'd like us to hold hands across the street again.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:23.356)
And eventually she came over and did that. And I tell parents when I'm coaching, I'm like, she never did that again. You know, like I taught her there that crossing the street isn't about me doing something to you or trying to make you not run into the street. It's about helping you know that we're on this together. And then from then on, she became like, when we went to target or other places like that, she'd tell her brothers and sisters, everybody grab hands. We're in the parking lot or we're crossing the street because she realized
That was the way we as a family were gonna be safe in getting from point A to point B.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (24:56.844)
Mm hmm. Yes. And I really empathize with your story because there are times where our toddlers are just living right in the present moment with like zero regard to what's happening around them because that's how they operate in life. And so ⁓ it is our job as the adult to keep our children healthy and safe. And sometimes we have to cross a child's bodily autonomy to do that. Right. Like whenever your child like ran off, you grabbed her because

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:20.506)
Yes, yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (25:24.800)
you wanted to keep her safe, right? But at the same time, it doesn't feel good ⁓ to cross bodily autonomy, especially whenever we're getting triggered and we're upset. So then we have feelings of upsetness towards our child ⁓ and they're pushing back against us. And so I just have ⁓ so much ⁓ empathy for that because this happens to us all. It's happened to me before. And this is where really repairing that relationship is so important. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:26.394)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:37.734)
Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:49.872)
Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (25:52.097)
Also in the moment, doing our best to stay grounded, describing what happened, like what you're doing is I have to pick you up, you're trying to run across the street, it's unsafe, so I'm picking you up to keep you safe. I know you don't like this, it's my job to keep you safe. So at least you're talking through it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:58.064)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:8.697)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (26:11.334)
And ⁓ yeah, and then repairing afterwards and like running through what happened, why and teaching the skills because teaching the skills needs to happen in the moments when our kids aren't kicking, screaming and flailing because they can't learn in those moments. ⁓ So.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:21.498)
Yes, yep. Yeah, well, and what I love about how you described it, ⁓ probably now I would do that, right? In the moment, because I didn't have those skills, I was like, what are you doing? Why are you kicking me? Like, ⁓ just like, ⁓ I'm just, ⁓ because being a first time parent, I was just like, what is happening? Like, why would somebody do this when I'm trying to save your life? ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (26:32.748)
Right?

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (26:36.374)
Right, totally.
Yeah.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (26:45.934)
Right? But you know, and the thing is that didn't make you a bad parent either, right? Like that just makes, that makes you, you're a good parent in that moment. You're keeping your kids safe. You're keeping your kid alive. And sometimes we have to do things that are the right thing to do in our parenting, but doesn't feel good. Right? And so then we have to go back and like, look at, okay, how do we meet our needs and our child's needs next time this happens? What does it look like? And sometimes it's even,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:49.200)
Yes, exactly. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:54.470)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:2.800)
Yes. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (27:15.576)
things that doesn't feel good like, ⁓ basically it's usually around setting limits, right? Because ⁓ it's hard to see our child unhappy, it's hard to see our child upset, but it's completely normal for toddlers to react to a limit because we've just taken away that thing they want the most, their autonomy, their sense of control every time we set a limit. So it's no wonder they have a big reaction.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:19.504)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:31.386)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. ⁓
Well, when I her the thing that also hit me was the idea that this just isn't sustainable. Like we can't keep doing it this way. And then I wasn't thinking at that time, but I look back and think it changed everything about my relationship with her where now that she's 15, you know, now we've spent the last 12 years since that moment working together as a team rather than me doing something to her. now when there's bigger stakes than just walking across the street, it's her driving a car and her

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (27:42.536)
Mm. Right.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:7.868)
going like now we work together as a team to decide how to be safe with that. You know, when I love how you kind of you were mentioned you threw in repair there. I love that because how often we feel as parents, these moments come up and we don't expect it. They come up when our kids are tired and hungry, but they come up when we're tired, we're exhausted, we're stressed. And we kind of stumble through moments all the time. Right. And that's where we can feel so bad. And you feel all that guilt or shame, you know, I really messed that up. And I, and I love how you were bringing up
You can come back later, right? You can, we kind of fumbled through some moments. We all have been there as parents. were like, okay. I don't feel like this is right, but I'm just trying to, you're in that moment and you, know, you don't have the, okay, let me step aside here and just think through this really well. Cause you're walking down the street downtown at night, you know, trying to get your kids home, you know? And so I love that. That followup is so valuable. Okay. Now ⁓ I'm in a better space. I've had a moment.
and or we're let's go back let's go practice this moment and and it's vital i mean it's something that's important to every relationship right like even our marriage yeah coming back around and checking back in with your child and going ⁓ hey you know last night ⁓ that didn't feel good to me or how did you you know and i love that you brought that up that repair because it's so important it's so valuable and i think sometimes as parents like how ⁓
What do you, you know, how do you do that with a two, three, four year old? How are you? ⁓ know, anyway, how do you do that? ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (29:38.617)
Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked this. And this is why in my book, my book has five sections. And the first section is called the toddler parent, which could just be called the parent of children or the caregiver of children, anyone, because everything I talk about ⁓ in that section is applicable to every single parent. But the reason I put the parent first is because we have to work through these things of, you know, what is my role in parenting? ⁓ What do I do with all of my big emotions?
How do I repair when I mess up? ⁓ What I do when my parenting partner is not on the same page, all of these big challenges that we struggle with, how do I stay calm when I feel like yelling? All of these things we have to look at to be able to even implement the things that we talk about. And so in that chapter, I talk about, ⁓ or in that section, I have chapters that talk about repair. And I came up with a four step process for repair because repair to me, ⁓
is more than just apologizing, right? Now, there's nothing wrong with apologizing. That's a great thing. And if we really want to create change and have things go differently and repair looks a little bit different. So what I always say is the first step is to take ownership. To take ownership of what happened. So you might say something like,
⁓ I was feeling really frustrated and I lost control and I yelled. That's not what I wanted to do there. And so you just take ownership. Then you check in ⁓ and you check in to see the impact. And so then you might say to your child, even if they're one or two, you can do this because guess what? They might not respond because they can't yet, but receptive language starts.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:15.580)
Mm-hmm.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (31:31.693)
before develops before expressive language. So kids understand a lot, even by 15 months, they understand so much ⁓ and you're creating the habit of repair. Then by the time your child's three, four or five, it's gonna be like second nature. But anyway, so you say, okay, how was that for you? How did you feel? And then they can either respond and if they can't, that's okay. But if they do, you just repeat back what they said. you felt.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:33.542)
Yeah. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (32:1.151)
mad, you didn't like it, you know, whatever they say, validate, then apologize, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that that happened to you, I'm sorry that I did that. And then the redo, to me this is the most important part, next time ⁓ I feel this way or next time this happens, I'm going to blank and then practice it right there, do the redo, this is how we rewire our brains to have it go differently because repair is important.
but repair that also shows the willingness to grow, the willingness to change is what really ⁓ makes the repair ⁓ authentic.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:42.288)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Devon, if I can add to that, I would say that what you just described is the piece that we see so often missing in the the parenting that we help with, right? Is a lot of times parents are maybe doing better and not reacting so big about the tantrum. They're being a little more empathetic, you know, maybe more patient, but they're like, it's not changing. You know, the kid isn't getting better at expressing it. And most of the time they're not doing that follow up. They're not doing that repair that you're
about those steps of learning a new skill. And even I love how you say this because we teach us a lot too is then practice it like do it with them. It's super fun. And then the kid typically likes it because they're like, cool, we get to roleplay. And like they do all that. So any parent listening to that, go back and listen to those steps that Devin just articulated, because you are gonna mess up. We've been doing this for a long time. Devin has to I know she we mess up all the time and ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (33:42.510)
We're all human, we mess up. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:43.428)
Yeah, in the success in our parenting isn't that we do it right. It's just that we know what to do when we screw it up. And then in the same way, you're modeling to the kid what to do with you when they screw it up and what to do with their friends when they screw it and what they
can do with their future spouses someday when they ⁓ choose to have a family of their own. And so those steps were crucial. So I would tell every parent to write those four steps down and make sure when you do mess up, because you will not to spend a lot of time beating the crap out of yourself, but go back and just do those four steps and your kid will thank you for it. It'll build so much trust in the relationship, you know, to know that this you're going to come back to me and we're going to work through this and I can trust.
that relationship and that that repair and things to happen because things get messed up. Even like you said, at doing it this age, Devon, it's so important because this is going to be vital in those teenage years for you to do it. So I love how you pointed out that receptive language. Yeah, there were times I was doing it with our toddler. I felt like a moron sometimes because the kids like, what are you talking about? But like it was a good practice to get into it with them.
And then they started getting more comfortable with that setting. Because so many times when I'm helping kids, especially teenagers, they don't want to do any follow-up or repair with their parents. Because it turns into a lecture, it turns into a shaming moment. And so they learn from the time they're little that those follow-ups are not good or productive. And so if parents can do that early on and make that a moment of growth for you and the kid.
then the kids actually excited to follow up. Cause they know after there's been a blow up, mom or dad are gonna come back and not only will they own their stuff, but it'll give me an opportunity to own my stuff as well.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (35:32.682)
Now, this is really how you keep the lines of communication open with teens, right? Because teens are at the point where they can hide so much from us. They cannot tell us things. They can omit things. And heaven forbid our child is – our teen is in a situation, right, where they need our support but they don't call us because they're afraid of, you know, the shame, blame, guilt, judgment, and fear that might – or punishments, right, that might come out. And so ⁓ this step right here can have such a big ripple effect.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:40.090)
Yes. ⁓

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (36:2.210)
throughout our children's lives and our relationship with our children for many, many, years to come.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:8.570)
Yeah, that's so good. Well, Devin, ⁓ first, I want to thank you for all of the great advice and wisdom that you've shared today. ⁓ And if anybody wants to get your book or they want to learn more about what you do, how could they find you?

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (36:21.292)
Yeah, so you can find my book wherever books are sold or you can go to transformingtoddlerhood.com backslash book to see a list of retailers. ⁓ And if you want to continue this conversation, you can find me on Instagram at transformingtoddlerhood.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:35.118)
Okay, well thank you so much and we're so happy to have this conversation specifically about these years, Devon, because ⁓ we saw it, like I said, as a life-changing ⁓ moment for how we viewed our kids and that's led into a long-lasting connection all through those teenage years. So if you have a toddler, then definitely go back, listen to this again and really put this stuff into practice. And if you don't,
it's okay because they're the exact same skills that's going to work for your teenager as well. So start implementing them there too ⁓ because Devon's information isn't just for those years, it's for the whole lifespan of your kids. So Devon, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. For being a guest. It was fantastic.

Devon Kuntzman, PCC (37:14.297)
Thank you so much for having me.