Episode 161

Episode 161 Transcript:

Kyle Wester (0:1.102)
All right, this is the intro for our interview with Lori Sugarman. Okay, here we go. Take one.

Kyle Wester (0:20.142)
Okay, here we go.
Hmm. Let me think here. Okay.
Do you ever as a parent dream of a time when you and your kids and your spouse are all working together as a team to do all the stuff, all the responsibilities around the house, the dishes, the cooking, the lawn care, and we're all doing it together instead of using punishments or rewards or yelling and threats and bribes? Well, today we want to bring on a guest who knows how to make that happen. Lori Sugarman Lee has a beautiful book called Our Home.
me
Sorry. Okay, yeah. Okay, sorry. Do you ever, this is take two. As a parent, do you dream of a time when you, your spouse and kids are working together on a daily and weekly basis to just make the homework, right? Doing the stuff that we all know needs to be done, right? The laundry and the cooking and the cleaning and taking care of the pets and all that kind of stuff.

Kyle Wester (1:27.298)
And do you dream or think it's possible to have a place where it's not done with threats or of punishment or bribes or just even shaming and yelling? I know so many times that becomes a daily and weekly struggle in a lot of homes. So that's why we wanted to bring on a special guests, Lori Sugarman Lee. She's the author of a beautiful book called Our Home, the Love, Work and Heart of Family. And she talks to us about how to talk with your kids about
creating a collaborative teamwork type effort to where we're all joining together to create the home we want to have. So take a moment because you're going to get some great tips. She's going to give you three clear things that you can change today. The way you're seeing it, the way you're talking about it to then begin opening the imagination for you, your spouse and your kids about how this whole kind of story, this dance that we're doing around chores.
can look completely different. So take a moment and if you could pause, we'd love it if you take a moment to rate, review, comment, share, all that stuff means so much to us. It is the currency of the podcasting world and helps other people be able to find us. So please take a moment to do that if you haven't done that already and then sit back, get ready to enjoy this great conversation with Lori Sugarman.

Kyle Wester (0:1.208)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I am Kyle. I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, something that we, I didn't even think this was gonna be possible actually when we had kids. Cause I didn't imagine it much. Cause in my home, when it came to doing stuff around the house, it was typically a lot of threats. So it was like, get up. It's time to get up and clean this out. Your mom said, the house is too dirty. So we need to get it cleaned up. So.
I always saw helping around the house as a real chore and I was happy if I got paid for it. Typically I didn't, but I always imagined that's kind of what it had to be. A miserable process where everyone's drug through it. Yes. Yeah. Well, where every kid reluctantly, even if they do it, they're like, Oh gosh, this again. And everybody's very upset about doing frustrated about doing. It's not fun. It's not something that's happy. Right. And you definitely have to either threaten them with punishment or
go them with reward to even get them to do it, right? And that's kind of how I imagined it. But then as we had kids, it's just not, it's not playing out that way. Like we've been able to create ways of connection through that. And that's where, when we met our guests, Lori Sugarman Lee, she's got a fantastic book. I'm going to show it to you now from, this is her book, Our Home. And it's exactly about creating a different way of seeing this type of.
like the way we're doing chores, the way we're doing responsibilities around the house to where it's a family gathering. So welcome Lori to the podcast.

Lori (1:34.317)
Thank you so much for the opportunity to chat with your community.

Kyle Wester (1:38.424)
Well, I would love to hear what was your inspiration from writing this book, because I know so many families that listen to us and that we run into, this is a big source of contention and conflict, and they feel like it's just part of raising kids, right? But what inspired you to kind of go into that conversation?

Lori (1:55.277)
So I had a fabulous 15-year career in marketing and strategy. And when I had my first baby, I was in Canada. We had a year-long maternity leave, which was a wonderful experience to sort of sink into this sort of new chapter. And when it came time to go back to work, the company I was with at the time, Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts, ended up not being a terrific fit. The job entailed a lot of long travel, which before kids was fabulous.

Kyle Wester (2:23.468)
Yeah.

Lori (2:23.695)
But after kids, my priorities had really shifted. And so my husband and I talked about it and I pivoted into the economy of care and was really thriving uh sort of unexpectedly right after being a professional for so long. But I really had taken all of my passions and skills and discipline and applied them to the work in my home and the work in my community. And I was really loving this. And we ended up moving internationally twice, first to London, England.

Kyle Wester (2:31.810)
Hmm.

Lori (2:50.529)
and now to Chicago where we're based. And when we landed here in Chicago, my husband said to me, listen, we don't have a safety net here. We have no friends yet, no family support. If God forbid something happens to you, he said, I would have to take a leave. Let's look into getting you disability insurance. And I thought, sure, why not? So I went through all the rigmarole, filled in all the forms, only to be summarily rejected by the insurance salesman who said to me, I don't understand. You're just a housewife.

Kyle Wester (3:7.800)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (3:13.454)
Hmm.

Lori (3:22.405)
If something were to happen to you, there's no loss really because you don't receive a salary. And the sort of shock of that moment, it was like a smoke coming out of my ears, flames coming out of my nose, realization that all of this work that in my little bubble had been so valued beyond that at a societal level and certainly in the insurance industry was not

Kyle Wester (3:25.294)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lori (3:49.659)
And it was a moment that I sort of, couldn't unsee, unhear. And uh I became a part of the movement to make the unpaid labor of home more visible, more valued, and of course more equitably shared, because I do believe that if men were more involved in this work, then we wouldn't have moments like, you know, of these kind of devaluing. And I kind of was searching from

Kyle Wester (3:50.764)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (3:55.479)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle Wester (4:6.114)
Hmm, yeah.

Kyle Wester (4:16.482)
Yeah, you'd be a greater appreciation, you're saying, of the work, yeah.

Lori (4:18.495)
Yeah, exactly. And I was searching for my role in this space and I started writing. And the first thing I did was create a LinkedIn profile for myself as a quote unquote stay at home mom, because I thought if I want other people to see this as work, I have to be able to articulate it as such. Everything I do in a day, all of my accomplishments, my achievements, my growth, my contributions to my community, even though they're unpaid, really still

Kyle Wester (4:37.100)
Yeah.

Lori (4:46.079)
significant um and I wrote an article on LinkedIn called I don't get paid so what am I worth and I really it started like a discourse and a lot of people had a lot to say um and I thought oh I really want to get more involved in this and I found Eve Rodsky and the book Fair Play became a Fair Play facilitator and I saw all of these colleagues of mine impacting corporate policy impacting government policy and I was like what

Kyle Wester (4:52.814)
Mmm.

Lori (5:13.997)
can I do with the platform that I have? And I thought, I can talk to kids. I'm at home with my kids. I'm very involved in their school. I'm particularly involved in children's charities worldwide. So I thought, this is really a chance to impact the future of gender equity and domestic labor and the value of care.

Kyle Wester (5:15.778)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (5:34.188)
Yeah. Wow. That's so, I mean, we've had lots of conversations and I love how I feel like that is the getting much it's seen more than it used to be seen. think we still have a lot of work there, but we do need to see, cause I think there's all these, I can't even think of the number of moms I know that.

Lori (5:36.907)
Hahaha

Lori (5:52.248)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (5:59.456)
are working, that are stay at home, or maybe they even have job, you know, some kind of a side thing or job or what, but all it's, what do you do? What's your career? You know? And it's all, there's still so much work to be done in that space of look at all the things they're doing, all the things they're managing. And of course we know, I think,

Lori (6:5.133)
Hmm?

Lori (6:10.069)
Right.

Kyle Wester (6:21.942)
You see a lot of praise where if a guy goes and gets groceries, if the dad went out and got groceries, big, whoa, thank you. Thank you. got groceries. She probably made the list and she's probably doing the dinners, but you went to the store and bought some things and you know, and just, if you turn the tables that like gets shine, but you know, for women it's, well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. very much, I would think it's very important for the kids.

Lori (6:30.123)
You

Lori (6:46.211)
I think.

Kyle Wester (6:50.466)
to hear those kinds of conversations. Because I know I didn't hear those conversations at all as a kid. I definitely thought that one person was going to work and making money in my home. My mom was doing both jobs. She was going and making money at a job, coming home and doing all the other stuff at home. And I look back and think how my mom pretty much never had time to do anything but work. And then a lot of times as a kid, I was upset because if I tried to hang out with my mom and just watch a movie or something with her, she fell asleep because she was just exhausted from all the work she was doing.

Lori (7:10.989)
Yeah.

Lori (7:16.983)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep, it's so true. And I think you're so right that we are seeing a shift now. And I think, you know, when you go to Whole Foods on a Sunday morning, there's loads of dads there, you know, with the kids and pushing the cart around. And so it's fantastic that uh there's more of a joint effort at the executional level. But what we know is that the mental and the emotional carries so much weight and so much of that still rests

Kyle Wester (7:30.286)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.

Lori (7:46.977)
with women and on top of that, exactly to your point, women have five fewer hours of leisure time per week than men and the combination of the weight of the mental load and the lack of time for the creativity, the joy, the exercise or whatever it is, is impacting women's wellness and I say women but we see these trends in girls as young as eight and we must.
break the cycle for future generations and focus on families as a team, looking at our home as an organization and ensuring wellness for all.

Kyle Wester (8:25.644)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear more about that. I want to hear more about the idea of the home ah being a space we're all in and the family being a team. Cause I don't know. think maybe we can say that, but what does that look like? What does that really mean in the day to day?

Lori (8:41.953)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think there's kind of three things I love to talk about. The first is visibility, and the second is the why, and then the third is the energy. And what happens is really a lot of the work that happens at home is largely invisible to kids. As we said, a lot of it is sort of in that ticker tape that's constantly flowing through mom's head, or it's done sort of silently and magically in the shadows.
while kids are at school, while kids are at sleep. So the reality is that they're not exposed to the greater scope of the work of the home in an engaging way. And then connected to that, a lot of families, which I think is terrific, they do engage kids by having some sort of a chore chart or a list, even these great visual calendars and stuff now.

Kyle Wester (9:10.870)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (9:19.586)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (9:27.949)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (9:31.853)
which I think is a terrific first step, but what's really imperative is to engage kids in the why behind all of this work. It's so much more than just an endless list. It all has great meaning in, for example, protecting our investments, like our home and our car, or protecting our health. You know, I have a 14-year-old. If I were to say to him, oh, your chore chart today says you have to change your sheets.

Kyle Wester (9:39.918)
you

Lori (9:59.649)
Well, that's uh gonna elicit a groan. But if I take the time to explain to him, buddy, I don't know if you know, but sleeping on a clean pillowcase is really important for facilitating clear skin. Well, suddenly, as a 14-year-old, he understands, a minute, this is for me. Like, this is not me helping you, me doing you a favor. This is directly benefiting me, and I'm in.

Kyle Wester (10:2.456)
Yep.

Kyle Wester (10:12.339)
Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. That's right. Yes.
Yeah. Yes.

Lori (10:27.403)
And those sheets are off the bed faster than you can snap. I also give the example of, in terms of protecting our investments, you know, if you have a really well loved vehicle that does a lot of carpools, pickups and drop-offs, and you're taking neighbors, kids and whatnot, there's probably like a delightful array of granola bar wrappers, crumbs, banana peels, all over the place. You can yell at your kids that the car is a mess, right? Or you can explain to them, hey,

Kyle Wester (10:52.652)
Yep. Yep.

Lori (10:56.951)
I don't know if you guys realize this, but when we got this car, it was worth this many dollars. If we want to sell it in five years, if we keep it well, it will be worth this many dollars. I'm holding my hand up high. If we don't look after it, it's going to be worth quite a bit less.

Kyle Wester (11:4.187)
Yep.

Kyle Wester (11:14.487)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (11:20.715)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (11:21.117)
as a family, if we keep it well and we're able to sell it for the higher amount of dollars, we can decide what to do with that extra money. What are we dreaming about as a family? And so you connect it to them having a win, having a benefit to something impacting the wellness of your own family and not just like, this annoying thing that I have to do. And then the third, oh yeah, go ahead. m

Kyle Wester (11:40.014)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (11:45.314)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even I, yeah, I was going to say, Lori, with that example, I remember even just with, um, like picking up the dog poop and those kinds of things that, can be very unappealing to do, but something since we've had the dog is just, this is how we love the dog. This is how we, this is how we love our lawn is we don't want poop just hanging out. can walk, have fun in the backyard playing, part of having an animal.

Lori (11:54.580)
Oh yes.

Lori (12:3.107)
That's it. That's it. Yeah. So, yes.

Kyle Wester (12:12.398)
the asset that they are is they give us opportunities to serve and to love in ways that we just don't get opportunities to do. So I try to encourage them. I don't want you to see picking up the dog poop is something you have to do. It's something we get to do because we have an animal that you love.

Lori (12:16.877)
Yeah. Yes.

Lori (12:27.657)
I so love that example, love it. The third thing I wanted to touch on is just the energy that we give to all of this. And like, let's acknowledge, okay, the work of home and care and family is a heavy load, right? And the surgeon general even sent out like a warning, you know, that parents most days are completely overwhelmed by the state of the job right now. But when we talk about things like chores,

Kyle Wester (12:32.716)
Yes, yep. Yes, yep.

Kyle Wester (12:46.606)
Hmm.

Kyle Wester (12:50.082)
Yeah.

Lori (12:56.136)
It's a shame that we really have applied and embraced that word because the word sure really refers to repetitive unappealing dreaded work.

Kyle Wester (13:2.210)
We agree, know, yes, it sounds like something you don't want to do. It's going to suck. Yes, of course. Yep. Yep.

Lori (13:5.922)
Immediately, like immediately it's sort of like a downer, right? And so I don't know that we're going to be able to change the word, but we can change the energy that we give to it. And again, that is like emotional labor by parents, right? But it's a great investment really upfront to say, this is actually the work of gratitude for all that we have, for those with whom we share a space. This is how we care for one another. And that care

Kyle Wester (13:20.984)
Uh

Kyle Wester (13:27.160)
Yeah.

Lori (13:35.661)
comes back to us. And so, yeah, we don't always feel like folding the laundry, but what if we agree that when it's time to fold the laundry, like we sit and do it together and like catch up on our week or when you fold the laundry as my 12 year old does, he gets to watch Premier League soccer highlights, you know, to make it fun, to make it enjoyable. I mean, you, right? You want them to succeed. You want them to thrive and not just always dread this work.

Kyle Wester (13:53.951)
Mmm, that's right. Yes. m

Kyle Wester (14:3.914)
Yeah, yeah, think that that is such a great point because you know all the fancy chore charts Kind of are trying to hint at making it fun, but really it's that building that community of okay. We'll listen to music We'll turn you know we use I used to Make it fun. We would kind of do we would I would act like I was if you've seen Annie, you know, I'd yeah we

Lori (14:24.951)
Yeah, yeah

Kyle Wester (14:26.828)
we would just when they really didn't want to clean I'd come in with my fake, get in here and as a, you know, and they would just be cracking up and then they would be doing the chores, you know, but in it, but they would be completely distracted from it being a job, you know, and it was,

Lori (14:33.868)
Love it.

Lori (14:42.967)
because of your energy. I love that so much.

Kyle Wester (14:46.382)
But I think that, now I forget that all the time. Just this morning, I gave my daughter a list of things to do and it was definitely just a list of chores. As you were talking, I was thinking, okay, yeah, I need to revisit that and make it the why behind what you're doing. know, the why for her, she has a friend coming over and she wants these, you know, it like, Oh, pick up your clothes, you know, things like that for her friend to come over. But I didn't focus on that. I focused on the list. You know, and then, and it's a hard thing to, you know, how do you keep.

Lori (15:0.419)
You

Lori (15:10.988)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (15:15.284)
spinning that around to, okay, what's the why behind this? Why are we doing this? It's not just a list, but it's a, you know, there's a deeper reason we're all showing up to do this stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Lori (15:26.893)
And that's a really compelling example you just gave. as my kids get a little bit older, I'm envisioning a time when they're living independently, right? And about to grow into partners of other folks. And I can even say to them, you know, in a few years, you're going to be inviting someone over to your space.

Kyle Wester (15:36.994)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lori (15:47.975)
And you have to think about what's gonna make them feel comfortable, what's gonna make them feel safe. You you hear the stories about like the frat boys that don't wash their sheets for the whole year, freshman year of college, right? uh And that is not gonna make someone else feel very welcome. So getting in, building these muscles now and getting into good habits now will really will serve them when they live independently.

Kyle Wester (15:51.310)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (16:2.519)
Yeah

Kyle Wester (16:8.930)
Well, that was a big shift for me to finally understand some of that work because my parents just were too busy and didn't have the knowledge to have these conversations. know, so it was almost like going into those college years was like freedom from being asked to do any of that stuff, you know. But what I learned as I, as I talked to some good mentors, had some challenging conversations with other friends who just had more intentional conversations with their parents, it was this.

Lori (16:26.443)
Right.

Kyle Wester (16:36.824)
conversation about what kind of person do you want to be when you grow up? What kind of adult do you want to be? And I remember those conversations were really important. Once I got out of college, I had roommates, because some of my roommates, they didn't clean, they were super messy. And it would it would irritate me because I'm like, how do you not see that this is not acceptable? But when I had conversations with those friends, they would be like, Kyle, to tell you the truth, I feel like if I leave it long enough, you'll pick it up. You know? Yeah, if I see the dishes need to be cleaned.

Lori (16:39.883)
Yes. uh

Lori (16:46.441)
Yes. Right.

Lori (17:2.001)
Wow.

Kyle Wester (17:4.842)
I can walk away from it knowing that eventually it'll bother you enough, you'll take care of it. And those kinds of conversations were really helpful, because then my friend said, I don't wanna be this way. I mean, when you see it, if you see me slough it off, just call me out. Tell me to go back and clean those dishes. Because he's just like, I had never had somebody do that. My mom just basically took care of all that for me. And so I could see it. I thought this is gonna hurt his marriage someday, because someday his wife is gonna have to be his mom.

Lori (17:15.487)
Yes.

Lori (17:23.555)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (17:30.455)
You got it.

Kyle Wester (17:33.954)
And that's not gonna be good for their marriage. So I think a lot of these things, that's why we're passionate about it, is we want our kids knowing how to take responsibility for those things that we have and those things that they want to create in their life and then doing things to really create those.

Lori (17:51.053)
Superb.

Kyle Wester (17:52.716)
Yeah. And then something else I heard you say about changing the energy, Lori, and I'd love your thoughts on this is I think a lot of what I'm doing with teenagers when I'm talking about these kinds of things and they're very resistant to doing a lot of conflict going on at home, a lot of fighting with mom and dad about this. And of course, the main problem is the energy is how do we get this kid to do this stuff? And I want to shift that. I don't think it's your job to get the kid to do it. It's an invitation. You're inviting the kid into it. But with the kid, the kid typically has this kind of closed story.
They're just, they're seeing it as it's me against them. Like they're trying to make me do this stuff. And it seems like that's what all of life is to the kids. Like the teachers are trying to make me do my homework. You know, the coach is trying to make me practice more. My parents, so it's like, they feel like they have no autonomy and it's the only way they can choose what they want is to resist helping and doing stuff around the house. So I try to help the kids open their hand up and kind of say, let's look at
a different story that could be going on here. Like, does it have to mean that? Because I know it seems to you it has to mean that, but it doesn't have to. This actually could be something you want to do. Like you want to do the dishes. You want to clean your room, right? Because you want to what? Be a human later on who knows how to do these things, right? And it seems like once you kind of help increase their imagination that this doesn't ever have to be a have to or need to, it can just be a want to or get to.

Lori (19:2.659)
Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Lori (19:17.283)
So you just said so many really important points. I want to touch them all. And I think you're right. think, uh yes, lot of times uh kids will put up a barrier to engagement. And I also think a lot of times parents will sort of try to protect their kids from what they know feels like a heavy load because they don't want it to distract them. think with younger kids, we say, oh, let them be little. Let them play. only little once.

Kyle Wester (19:35.360)
Hmm... Yeah.
Good point, yeah.
Yes. Yeah. uh

Lori (19:47.239)
The true story is that little kids want to be with us. They want to be a part of important things. And so instead of putting them in a different room to play with like a plastic kitchen and like in a plastic toolbox, like bring them in, even if they're just watching, right? And through osmosis, they pick so much stuff up. And then with older kids, I think we very much tend to want to protect them from.

Kyle Wester (19:59.222)
Yeah. Yep.

Lori (20:12.205)
just anything that's gonna distract them from their academic focus or their athletics or their creative pursuits or whatever that are going on to build their resume. But as we've been talking about, the reality is holistic parenting entails that we prepare our kids for the entirety of their independent life, right? It's not just about getting into the best school. They have to know.
how to live in a way that they're going to thrive at that school. If they can't make themselves a nourishing meal the night before an exam, right? Or if they don't know that they need to wash their sheets with some regularity, right? They're not gonna be living um that well sort of life. And I think one thing that we can decide to do in our home to sort of shift the narrative around it is changing some of our language. And a lot of it is around this word help.

Kyle Wester (20:39.234)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (20:43.643)
Mmm... yeah.

Kyle Wester (20:49.356)
Yes. um

Kyle Wester (21:5.230)
Yeah.

Lori (21:5.451)
And so when we use the word help, can you help me, I need your help, whatever, it really positions that the work belongs to the mom primarily or the parent in some great families and that the kids can sort of wait in the wings to be called in. But then that doesn't really position them as owners or noticers or...

Kyle Wester (21:15.635)
Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, that is good.

Kyle Wester (21:25.261)
Okay.

Lori (21:30.657)
whatever it's gonna take for them to be self-starters and build that muscle. so if we can use language that's a little bit more collaborative, and instead of expecting from the get-go to, from a child to take like a list of chores and just do it on their own, make this stuff that the family does together. know, make it a learning experience, make it a trust and empowerment experience. When I look back to my own childhood, oh

Kyle Wester (21:30.829)
Yeah.

Lori (21:55.979)
My greatest memories of time with my dad were of partnering around the house on this, that, and the other, you know, important tasks. And ah it's interesting to look back. Now I have the sort of experience and knowledge to reflect and say, oh, my dad was actually wired a little bit differently. And he actually had sort of trouble tackling big tasks. And he knew that bringing me in would keep him on track.

Kyle Wester (22:21.623)
Hmm.

Lori (22:21.691)
And so I played actually a really powerful role as a child and doing big things around my house. I felt empowered, I felt trusted, and I was building a muscle that has taken me to where I am today. And also what's important when you're talking to kids is around this topic of wiring, recognize that the space that they need to thrive in is very often not going to be the space that...
works for you or that is the same standard as yours. I am quite a sort of a type A, cleaned off surfaces, like everything in his place. My 14 year old is not. His room is full of sort of memories, nostalgia, every surface is covered. He's got Lego sets that he built seven years ago, an award that he won for Taekwondo when he was two. It's all out. And so for me to go into his room and say,

Kyle Wester (23:0.622)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (23:12.386)
Yeah. m
Yeah.

Lori (23:17.633)
this is ridiculous, everything needs to be put away, right? That doesn't honor him. What really sort of engages and ingratiates your kid into this work is if you understand how they wanna be and help them be their best. So really, as long as the space is like safe and adheres to like health standards, right? You're not gonna have a pizza box under the bed. Like talk to them about...

Kyle Wester (23:20.206)
m Yeah.

Kyle Wester (23:34.530)
Mmm.

Kyle Wester (23:41.518)
course, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lori (23:45.951)
what's meaningful in their own space and then help them get to their best self.

Kyle Wester (23:50.604)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. love the way that that honors children and who they are as a person is as valuable as important as who I am as a person. oh And you know, I'm not coming in as the I know and this is how it should be for everybody because these are my preferences, but working with them and helping them discover that because they don't always have language for it. So you can go in and that partnering is really, really beautiful. um

Lori (24:0.536)
That's right.

Lori (24:7.435)
That's it.

Lori (24:13.804)
That's it.

Kyle Wester (24:19.286)
I wanted to go back to what you were saying about instead of saying help that. I know. hit me too. uh that one. My mind was already going, working with that. Um, what language do you use in place of come help me with the dishes or come help clean the house? What, how do you switch that language out to, uh, I remember in your book, a word that stood out to me a lot was the word team or a team as a family caring for this home.

Lori (24:24.277)
Yes.

Lori (24:47.043)
Mm-hmm, yes.

Kyle Wester (24:48.962)
But I would love to hear more about how you switch that out and what you do, what language you use.

Lori (24:54.221)
Thank you, so I just happened to post about this on my Instagram about a week ago, and I think the opportunity is like a lot more collaborative language. First of all, the opportunity to do something together. So hey, I was just about to do this thing, and it occurred to me that you might never have seen me do it before. Why don't you come watch so that you'll feel good about.

Kyle Wester (25:14.572)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lori (25:18.071)
doing it too, right? Or as I mentioned before with something like the laundry, like, you know, come in with me. And this is important because if your kid is, let's say your kid is a soccer player as mine are, kits are covered in grass stains, mud, whatever. Teach them how to spray the stains, right? Show them how to care for the things. My older son has a collection of concert t-shirts that he prizes, but if a little bit of like ketchup or ice cream drips,

Kyle Wester (25:33.485)
Yes. Yep.

Kyle Wester (25:38.033)
Mmm, yeah.

Lori (25:47.521)
You know, and so I teach him, is how you can make sure that you treat this immediately and get it out. And then just acknowledging when kids do things like, oh, wow, you really did that fast. Or I didn't know you knew how to do that. And I really appreciate your contribution with that. And I really trust you. And just words that feel, that are more about them and the impact of their effort versus

Kyle Wester (26:2.242)
Yeah. Yes.

Lori (26:17.847)
doing you a favor by pitching in.

Kyle Wester (26:19.788)
Yeah, would you say, Lori, as you're saying that I'm thinking, I kind of do that like now with the dishes, we've got a 15 year old, 12 year old, and nine year old, if I see the dishwashers full, I don't say, will you come help me with the dishes? I just say, Hey, the dishwasher is full, let's go and take care of the dishes, right? And then the kids immediately go and they start taking care of the dishes. I don't think it's something to help me with. Because in my mind, I think that's something they could totally take responsibility for. I think I say the help more often when I think it's something

Lori (26:36.064)
Exactly.

Kyle Wester (26:48.832)
at least at that age or whatever, that is still my job because they're too little to do it or whatever. But I could see how using that language would then just let the kid know it's never your responsibility. It's always mine. only, only, and maybe that's where parents struggle so much with kids not taking initiative. And I'm thinking like, that's where sometimes we get frustrated. It's like, didn't you see that thing and go do it, but they're used to being asked to go help do it.

Lori (26:52.887)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle Wester (27:16.844)
So they're like, I'll help when someone has said, like if you would have just asked me to help, I would have done it, but I'm, it's not my job to look for that thing. ownership in that in certain spaces. It's not like it's owner. They don't own that. It was like a sports team mentality is yeah, maybe my responsibility is to defend that guy, but if I'm pulled out of that play, then the other teammate would go over there and defend that person for me. Right. And then we would work together as a team. see something lacking and we hold the weight together.

Lori (27:40.833)
Exactly.

Lori (27:47.139)
That's it. And be specific about what their contributions are. know, oh, your strength would be really valuable here. Your creativity would really help me to solve this. I can't quite get my head around what I'm going to do here. Can you jump in and collaborate with me? Or just like, hey, I was going to do this thing, but I realize it's actually like a two-person job. Are you available for 15 minutes? Right? It's all sort of more collaborative team language versus like, this is mine. I need you to do me a favor.

Kyle Wester (27:50.017)
Mmm.

Kyle Wester (27:56.494)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (28:11.480)
love that. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (28:16.032)
Yeah, that's so good. So I want to real quick for our audience, I want to kind of just imagine and I know I'm not trying to get into like, uh idealistic thinking, but what this could look like. So if kids were raised this way, what could those outcomes look like? Because I'm imagining it's like kids who
are not, they're not burdened with responsibility, but, we as a family all see responsibility as something that's just part of growing up. It's something that leads to a lot of other great opportunities when we take responsibility for things, right? We get to like learn new skills. We get the, just feels good to actually take care of responsibilities. And so we, as a family, don't walk around burdened all the time by what we have to do or need to do. Instead, we're just looking around at ways we can contribute and work together as a team. So the kids are on a weekend or during the weekday like, Hey,
I'll take care of this or I noticed that that that wasn't done. I'll go take care of that, right? That they're taking initiative. And it's like they're just laughing the whole time with joy, but they are doing it with a mindset of like, this feels good. I like contributing because I'm helping this whole thing run better. Is that kind of how you imagine? How would you add so because I want to listeners like have an imagination over what is possible when you approach it this

Lori (29:30.787)
Great, so a great starting point for families and even little kids can be super thoughtful in a conversation like this. It's just to sit down and say, every day feels so crazy, we're just trying to make it through. It feels like we are all running around, we have so much to do, we have to get done every day. Let's stop for a minute, push pause, and reflect on what are the things that are really important to us? And are there some things that we do
because we think we have to, but we don't, that aren't actually very important to us. And the opportunity to release as a family can be just as powerful as making a list of the things that you're gonna tackle and having family values. Like just saying, what's important to you about like how we roll, how we thrive, how we flow, how we connect? It becomes a North Star, right? That you can always come back to. And what you find is that you then have a family,

Kyle Wester (30:8.610)
Yes, of course. So good, yep.
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (30:19.084)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (30:24.386)
Hmm, yeah.

Lori (30:29.759)
agreement and when you fall off the rails as every family does, it's less about you have to do this because I told you so and more about remember everyone, this is what we agreed was really important to us. And it does take time. mean, especially kids, like it is muscle building and it's not about perfection. And also this is not about pawning off work onto kids. It's about like

Kyle Wester (30:40.216)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (30:51.628)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (30:57.364)
Yes, yes. Yes. Yeah.

Lori (30:59.533)
building the strength to be these thriving independents someday. And there's research that tells us, Harvard did a 75 year study on happiness success and the research says that kids involved in the household tasks as young as three see greater self-esteem, greater ability to approach and complete and discuss the requirements of tasks and overall thriving academically and in their social relationships. And so,

Kyle Wester (31:4.972)
Yeah

Kyle Wester (31:18.478)
Hmm

Lori (31:28.311)
there is a direct correlation to sort of building all these skills that really transcend cleaning the toilet, right? These are life skills and just your ability to, again, be um a part of a team. And what you see resulting from that is, of course, that this work takes less time overall for a family. And this is really important to state when you're talking about this is like, listen, if we have all hands on deck,

Kyle Wester (31:35.106)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (31:44.398)
Yeah.

Lori (31:57.725)
We invariably promise we will have more time for joy, more time for rest, more time for creative athletic pursuits, whatever it is that really nourishes your soul. And that's the benefit for everybody that takes part.

Kyle Wester (32:4.366)
you

Kyle Wester (32:10.670)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (32:15.148)
Well, yeah, so you're saying then you wouldn't have a mom who every time we have a leisure activity is falling asleep. Like you'd actually have, you know, because really that's now that you're saying that I'm thinking, man, that would have made all the things my parents were asking me to do feel a lot different. If I knew that my mom could stay awake and enjoy that movie with me, as opposed to her just being wiped out after a whole week of work and then all the stuff she's doing at home and just being exhausted all the time.

Lori (32:20.532)
Right.

Lori (32:35.713)
Yeah.

Lori (32:40.427)
And how meaningful if she had had the language to say that to you as a youngster for her to say, look, this is not easy for me to share, but here's the truth. Like the weight that I am carrying is overwhelming. And the result is that when we have time together, I'm exhausted. I would love to not be exhausted. I would love to watch this movie for you, in order, with you, but in order.

Kyle Wester (32:46.220)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (33:2.786)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Lori (33:9.187)
for me to feel differently in that moment, like I need to carry less of what comes before. So can we restructure our family such that this is shared more equitably?

Kyle Wester (33:19.266)
Yeah, no, that that would have been powerful and it would have reshaped the story for me. Cause every time I saw her fall asleep, it was like, man, mom doesn't care about this movie. I wanted to watch mom is always too focused on other things that matter to her. And she doesn't care about what I want to do with her, you know? But if she would have phrased it that way, you even Lori, I had an honest conversation with my mom about a year ago and she was in tears talking about how she wished she would have had more time to play with us as kids that she never really got to do that.

Lori (33:23.244)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (33:28.242)
Right, right.

Lori (33:34.916)
Oh, yeah.

Lori (33:44.088)
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (33:46.336)
and she misses that connection and she knows she can never get it back, you know, but it was because she just thought it was her duty to work a full-time job, sometimes two jobs, and then come home and cook and clean and do, you know, and just wear herself out.

Lori (33:59.649)
And that's exactly the cycle that I'm hoping to break with my book and foster a future where this work is more equitably shared and takes up less space so that everybody has more space for joy.

Kyle Wester (34:4.642)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:15.254)
Yeah, man, Laurie, tell them if they want to know more about what you're doing, obviously we want that. We'll have the link to your book in the show notes, but where else could they find the work you're doing and connect with you?

Lori (34:25.699)
Thank you so much. So my Instagram is at our home, our pride. And when I talk about pride, it's certainly not a pride in any kind of perfection. It's more a pride in feeling safe and thriving in our own space, whatever we decide we want that to be. If you'd like to find me on LinkedIn, it's Lori Sugarman Lee and my book is available everywhere books are sold. I also do some family coaching, which I love to do. I say I'm like WD-40 for families, helping them get unstuck.

Kyle Wester (34:35.244)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:51.442)
Great, yeah. uh

Lori (34:55.571)
And you can find more information about that on my website, is ourhomeourpride.com.

Kyle Wester (34:55.693)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (35:1.390)
That's great, Thank you so much for helping us rethink this. even Sarah and I think we're pretty on top of this, but the way you framed it's going to give us a lot to talk about and discuss.

Lori (35:10.835)
I'm so grateful for the chance. Thank you so much.

Kyle Wester (35:13.740)
Yes, thank you. Loved having you on.

Lori (35:16.321)
Be too.