Episode 185

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:31.946)
Whenever you are raising kids, one of the biggest obstacles that you will run into so often with little kids and big ones ⁓ is anxiety. There's so many things that kids and parents get anxious about, whether it's school, if it's food, if it's ⁓ new activities or new adventures that you want to go on. And so many times, ⁓ I think his parents were confused about how to handle anxiety. I know in the old days it was kind of
just like shove the kid towards it, almost like ⁓ throw the kid into the pool, he'll learn how to swim. And then ⁓ other stuff parents have done, they just backed away altogether. And then the kid ⁓ never seems to face their fears or their anxiety. But I want you to know there's a different way to approach it. And that's why we wanted to bring on Dr. Tamar Chansky. She is the founder of the Children's and Adult Center for OCD and Anxiety.
She's helped thousands of children overcome fears, negative thoughts, and OCD. Dr. Chansky is committed to helping children, teens, and adults understand and overcome the tricks the mind can play. She's the author of several books. Some of my favorites are Freeing Your Child from Anxiety and Freeing Yourself from Anxiety. So she's written a great book for parents as well. So I want you, if you're seeing this at all, which I know you are if you're a parent of kids of any ages, you're seeing anxiety pop up.
in all different types of ways. Well, she's gonna help you have specific strategies, specific tips ⁓ on how to get better at having the conversation in your family ⁓ about this feeling that seems to disturb ⁓ so much of our hopes and dreams for our kids. ⁓ So sit back, take a moment and get ready to learn how to better handle anxiety in your family today.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.496)
Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, right now, ⁓ so many people in this kind tumultuous world, you know, there's so much crazy stuff going on. We're seeing so many parents who are confused on how to handle the anxiety that their kids are feeling. Yeah, there's a lot of worry, a lot of fears right now. And I know throughout our time raising our kids,
There's all different moments where they have felt anxiety in different ways, whether it's food anxiety, whether it's anxiety about going to sleep, whether it's our own anxiety that they won't go to sleep or like, or they won't eat the food. We've definitely experienced all different types of anxiety. And I know we've read a lot of different books about it, but one of the books that I love the most, I'm going to show our audience on YouTube right now. And if you aren't watching us on YouTube, get over there. You should be doing that. But one of my favorite authors, Dr.
Tamar Chansky has a book called Freeing Yourself from Anxiety, and that's for adults, but an even cooler one when you have kids, is Freeing Your Child from Anxiety. And this is just two books that she's written. She's written several others more specifically about OCD and about other topics like that. And so we thought, let's get her on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, it's an exciting day. Right, so without further ado, Dr. Tamar, I wanna welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Tamar Chansky (1:19.851)
Thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:23.015)
Now I'm curious, did you, ⁓ why are you so excited about writing about anxiety? What was it that drew you into this topic?

Tamar Chansky (1:32.299)
You know, ⁓ like you said, right now, there's so many things that, you know, the world is ⁓ going through, right? And so, and we are here ⁓ trying to help ourselves, our families, you know, the folks that we work with, but it's kind of always been that way. Right? I think about the headlines of the age of anxiety recently.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:41.368)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:57.868)
Yep. Yep.

Tamar Chansky (1:59.809)
But since I've started doing this work, those have been the headlines, especially for kids. ⁓ So partly, I think that's a reason ⁓ to stay in here ⁓ and keep trying to help people understand what the process is, what happens when you're anxious, when your child is anxious, and head the direction that may be kind of counterintuitive.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:4.077)
Mmm.

Tamar Chansky (2:26.807)
which is not just to swoop and rescue. There's nothing wrong with that. We're wired for that. But in the long run, and even in the short run, we want kids to be able to talk about their fears and anxieties, fact check them themselves, ⁓ with our help kind of scaffolding along the way, so that they learn how to not be afraid of their own thoughts and feelings, ⁓ and really see, kind of put things in perspective.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:29.986)
Yes. Yep.

Tamar Chansky (2:55.587)
and what they can do to help themselves. I just, yeah, I stay in this work because I love it like you guys do too, right? And yeah, there's just so much that we can learn, but we are wired to not do that. We're also wired to learn, but it's sort of like our second instinct is to do that. So.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:1.464)
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:16.750)
Yeah, yeah, almost it's like our first instinct, like you said, is to just either run away from it or, you know, just kind of rescue our kids from it. We just want to get away from it. But I think learning about it is so important. So if you could take a moment to kind of define what is anxiety?

Tamar Chansky (3:33.603)
Yeah, so fear is again wired in. We need to be afraid of things because we have to be able to keep ourselves safe. If we didn't have that wiring, we would not be here today, right? But anxiety is sort of the extra layer of interpretation, prediction, looking ahead, and looking ahead not like with excitement, but with.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:45.240)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:0.042)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (4:0.675)
⁓ worst-case scenario, ⁓ the spiraling and predicting of negative outcomes, which ⁓ can really be dysfunctional because maybe ⁓ there are some things we need to do in the present that would be helpful to prepare ⁓ for a test for a new situation, but with anxiety left unchecked, we're just going to feel so overwhelmed.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:28.994)
Mm-hmm.

Tamar Chansky (4:29.632)
that we might even ⁓ opt out of things. And our kids too, just really coming to us distress, like, can't go to soccer trials, or I can't do this, I can't do that. ⁓ Because why? The situation, not so much. It's really the narrative of what their thoughts are telling them about that situation. And that's really the kind of place of change that we can, by not being afraid, and to go in and,

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:40.216)
Yes. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (4:59.710)
not just correct and say, this is how you should see this. ⁓ But can we just say for a moment, isn't that what we all want to do? ⁓ Only that worked. So we can't do that. But what we can do is say, you know, we can empathize and say that, you know, I get why that sounds, why that feels so scary. If I were thinking those thoughts, I would feel really scared too. Let's take another look. What's the scariest part? What's your brain telling you about this?

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:7.822)
⁓ yes. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (5:28.290)
Do you have another idea about it? Can we fact check it? Then, you know, that whole thing can just take ⁓ seconds or minutes. It's just about the, it's not like a long drawn out thing. It's knowing to head in that direction rather than away from, you know, what your child is afraid of.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:47.502)
Yeah, that's what I was, I was kind of thinking of, of, I know you, talk a lot about this in your book, but how, how is it that you, um, frame fear and anxiety for your child, you know? Cause, cause that to me, you see kids, they're just like big guy, you know, they're feeling it all over in their body. How do you help them to look at and like, what, is anxiety? What is this fear? How do you help kids as a parent, you know, kind of
How do I help them understand what's happening right now and what this is in a way that's, I wanna say healthy, you know, but you're just feeling this, I'm scared, run away, you know, but how do you help them kind of shift that and look at it? ⁓

Tamar Chansky (6:27.840)
Yeah, yeah, so important to sort of think about the first step is really, ⁓ you, if we really think about what ⁓ state the body is in when we're afraid, it's not a time to do careful ⁓ assessment of details, right? We are wired to ⁓ run or fight. That's not like read the directions. So.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:49.058)
Mm-hmm.

Tamar Chansky (6:55.946)
The first thing is just really understand. think the more we understand that even about ourselves too, that we might, you know, with empathy connect, but then just take a second to ⁓ rather than rushing in with a lot of questions and information might say like, I get why you are feeling so afraid. If you're thinking that let's just take a second. I really want to look at this together. And that's kind of might seem like that's a throw away phrase. Like what, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:25.134)
⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (7:25.794)
⁓ except not having a lot of information at first actually gives everyone a chance to exhale. ⁓ And that exhale brings us more into our recovery mode where we could then do the careful sifting and kind of looking at the details. So, you know, we are ⁓ such evolved and ⁓ refined and complicated ⁓ beings, but at the same time, we're not. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:55.469)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (7:55.709)
You know, just so not, ⁓ you know, when you were saying, Sarah, you ⁓ see the look of fear on your child's face or something like that. Let yourself respond to that by just like, OK, you know, I see how overwhelming this is. Let's just take a second. I really want to talk this through with you. And just the sort of that contracting that connection helps everyone ⁓ down regulate.
and that's going to help. And the next steps are really about finding out what your child is thinking and the way, you know, kind of simple things that you can say to, you know, you don't have to go into a whole like neuroscience explanation, but you might say, you know, so there's a part of the brain that just, always ⁓ tells us what could go wrong. What's that part saying? You could say that to a four year old pretty much.
you know, a 16 year old, a 56 year old, you know, so just as kind of as simple as that. ⁓ And but we do want to get those two tracks going. So we might say, you know, what is that part of your brain saying to you? And then what do you think of that?

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:9.186)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (9:11.030)
What does that sound like to you? Does that ⁓ some of that sound true? Some of that not sound true. So it's, it's just, it's so humbling, I think, and interesting that ⁓ as much as we want to give the direct correction, and we all do, you know, we do this all day, it doesn't matter, we still want, you know, we know that that's not going to be helpful. But that is our instinct, you know, that it's just giving kids ⁓ agency to ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:33.944)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (9:40.833)
by asking questions. What do you think about that? How does that sound? Does that remind you of something? Or ⁓ if you were taking a test on that at school, would that be the right answer? What do you think? So it's not sort of why are you worried about that? That doesn't make sense. You're really making the worry kind of that third party to say, ⁓ asking your child to say, what do you think about what worry is telling you?
course it's trying to protect you, do you think you know do you need that kind of protection in this moment or you need something else? ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:11.084)
Hmm. Can you say that again? So what do you think about what worries telling you? You know, I love that kind of self reflective question, but I don't think any parent I know is asking their kid that right but it sounds like they're what you're doing. Yeah, I know. What do ⁓ you think?

Tamar Chansky (10:24.844)
Well, hopefully now ⁓ they will. If you take one thing away. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:31.202)
Yeah, yeah, what do you think worry is trying to tell you there? Right? So then I what I hear you saying there, it's kind of teaching the skill to reflect to be curious. But also there's the sense of differentiating yourself or separating yourself from the worry. Like the worry isn't you. ⁓ The worry is a feeling that's trying to say something to you. So be curious. What's it trying to say? And then like then you add it on. Maybe that worry has helped at times.
But is it helping you now?

Tamar Chansky (11:2.812)
Yeah, exactly. Thank you. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:5.164)
Yeah, no, that was great. No, I was trying to unpack it there because you get, said it so quick and I really wanted our listeners to hear that, that I know it might sound strange to talk that way, but it really is so helpful to kids because then it's almost like they can befriend those feelings. They don't have to be scared of them. Worry doesn't have to be an enemy. Anxiety doesn't have to be their enemy. It can actually be something there that's just there to talk to them, you know?
You know, so I would ask you, what would you add? There's so many families, you know, kind of building upon what you're saying. So many families I'm seeing right now who maybe ⁓ they didn't have these skills when the kids were little, right? And now the kids have grown up and they are not friends with their anxiety. They very much, they very much have seen it modeled.
by their parents or other adults and anxiety is not something you want to befriend. ⁓ It very much has been something they don't talk about. They try to avoid as much as possible, whether it's on their phones, by watching TikTok or whatever it is, they try to get away from it. And now when push comes to shove and their teenagers...
And life is actually getting ⁓ so much more anxious because they're having to make big decisions. Like, where am I going to go to college? How do I pass this class and get the grade to get that scholarship and so on and so forth? What I have seen, and this is not just with one family, but many families, the kids aren't even going to school. ⁓ They're so anxious they'll miss a couple days because they thought they were going to fail that test. And then once they've missed those couple days, then they get anxious of the thought of going back.
and then everybody asking them why they missed. And then it just starts to snowball. then pretty soon the parents are like, the parents at first are kind of doing what you're saying. like, this is easy to solve. Just get out, go talk to him. And then all that information even like snowballs the anxiety more to where now the kid isn't even coming out of their room or things like that. I've just said, when you see stuff like that, what...

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:59.944)
What's some kind of answers or some things to help those parents? Lots of what I'm doing is trying to encourage them and being like, hey, let's stay the course, keep connecting with the kid, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on

Tamar Chansky (13:10.698)
No, exactly. And I think that's such a, you know, it's such a poignant example of just what just the stress that kids are under their interpretation of what they need to do. ⁓ You know, many feeling like they couldn't ask for help early on, or they couldn't get a bad, you know, a bad grade, what is a bad grade, you ⁓ know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:21.240)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:31.341)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:35.554)
Yes. Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (13:37.731)
to perform as well as they'd like and that that would be so bad that that's the thing to be avoided. When really it's like we want kids to feel like there is just much more of a landing pad and room for just being human, like your podcast, because none of us perform.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:56.812)
Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (14:4.770)
perfectly ever, you know, it's we're trying to optimize how we perform. So anyway, just to say, it's it's so broad this, ⁓ you know, these challenges just affect all students. You know, it's like, if I think about this, I will answer your question. I will make sure I do. But ⁓ I ⁓ was thinking about how just when I I don't know, I'm older than you. But

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:21.622)
I know you will. I'm waiting for it, I will, I will. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (14:34.754)
⁓ You know, when I was in school, the word stress didn't exist. It wasn't like we didn't have problems or whatever. We didn't talk about that, you know? Then it started to work its way in. ⁓ If you asked students now if they were stressed, they would just look at you like, ⁓ are you breathing or something? Like, of course, everyone is. So I just, think that ⁓ that's a, ⁓ that's the...

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:55.400)
Yes. Yes.

Tamar Chansky (15:2.688)
that's sort of the situation that all kids are facing and really ⁓ is ⁓ why we need to be having these conversations as much as possible. So all is to say, you know, if parents are at the point like you were just describing where it's just, there's sort of a shutdown because now in a way you could say there is a reality component to those fears because they have to catch up. They have to have answers to ⁓
what their friends are going to say, but you know what? All of those things ⁓ can be solved. A lot of times, ⁓ you know, if you just are willing to go into the nitty gritty ⁓ about, say with friends, ⁓ you know, they just, when they ⁓ say, you know, well, where have you been? They don't want a dissertation. There is just one line you need to fill in.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:38.083)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:54.754)
Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (15:58.913)
whatever it is, I was really having a hard time, which these days, no one would blink an eye like that would be the answer that everyone, you know, all the all your colleagues in high school, you know, would would understand that. Then the brainstorming with, you know, the teachers about how to catch up and things like that. But I think that as you were saying, going in with empathy and just saying, look, there are times that just feel like
You can't fix, they're unfixable. ⁓ can't, in a normal life, in the course of life, competent people can have that feeling. That is a feeling, that's a thought, you know, so if you're feeling overwhelmed, that doesn't mean this is impossible, but it means it feels that way. Let it, you know, when you're ready, and just sometimes kids just, you know, think about teens. They want to feel normal.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:31.032)
Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (16:58.454)
whatever that means. just ⁓ already they may feel like, ⁓ the way Yeah, everyone's stressed out. But the way I did it was wrong. Like no one did it like me. So just really parents doing that kind of containment and connection to say, if it feels like, you know, just so overwhelming, I get it. And that doesn't mean we can't, you know, figure this out together. ⁓ Then you're really so you know, hopefully then everybody exhales a little bit. It's like, okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:6.840)
Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (17:27.052)
They're not just gonna say, why don't you tell me last ⁓ month that you were having these, or whatever. ⁓ Not the time for that. ⁓ But then ⁓ really ⁓ trying to get to what I think of as the gems. ⁓ What are the hardest parts? Like what is that youngster, that teenager thinking of? ⁓ I can't make up that chemistry work, okay? That's one. You just start to get more projects.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:36.910)
Sure.

Tamar Chansky (17:56.173)
then you might say, okay, which one do you feel ready to talk about? Sometimes ⁓ when you just start listing things, ⁓ things feel more manageable because again, if we think about the nervous system, when we're overwhelmed, we're just not in thinking mode. When we can have someone help us down regulate and start to name things, okay, then we're up in our thinking part, then we can be problem solvers.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:23.938)
Yeah. Yeah. Can you give, cause you're talking right now as you're, as you're talking about that, the nervous system and I've seen so many times, you know, even in my own kids where they're clearly very dysregulated, their nervous system is just haywire. ⁓ What are some things as a parent, you can look at your teenager or your child and just, you can see it for starters, we need to calm your body down, you know?
What are some things, cause you try to have that conversation and you know, there's oftentimes I feel like I jump, I jump into that too early, you know? And I'm like, Oh wait, well they're not even calm yet. And I'm, I'm like, so let's, let's pull us apart. But what are some, what are some of your favorite ways that parents can go to their child and just kind of help them take that deep breath and help them down, you know, calm down, down, regulate, get their nervous system into a better state.

Tamar Chansky (19:17.964)
Sure. Yeah. I I think one ⁓ important ⁓ way of starting that process is the framing and making it a we thing instead of a you thing. ⁓ Can we, can we just take a second? ⁓ You might even say, I need to take a second. Don't want your child to feel on the spot, you know, ⁓ and you're bringing your kind of calm energy in. That's going to be helpful. But you might just say like, can we just take a second? I just need to
I need to exhale for a second, you know, then there's some mirroring that happens there. don't, you know, you don't ⁓ ask them that they have to do that, you know, but you're showing them and you might invite them, you know, when I'm feeling that way, sometimes it just really helps to like sigh ⁓ like that. Or, you know, when I'm feeling that way, sometimes it helps just to, you know, put my hands on my chest and just, you know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:52.546)
Yeah, yeah.

Tamar Chansky (20:14.944)
go back and forth like this, like butterfly breathing and hope. It just helps me to feel calmer and then I can think clearly, do you wanna try that? Again, you're sort of offering instead of telling and that's going to also help a child, certainly a teenager, but even a younger child just feel like they have some agency, they're in charge that will feel better. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:39.372)
Yeah, and so it sounds like what you're doing there is kind of inviting them into it through the we and that there's still some hesitancy to dive into it, then just do it yourself. Just you start doing the activity. I know many times what we did even ⁓ we would ask the kids to take some deep breath with us or do some other kind of calming activity. And especially when they're little, there would be resistance. No, I don't want to do that because they kind of don't want to let go of it. ⁓ And then I'll say, well,

Tamar Chansky (20:43.490)
⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:2.894)
I need to do it, so I'm gonna do it. And then pretty soon they would end up sitting on my lap, taking some deep breaths with me. And I just say, hey, just feel my chest against your body, right? Just feel that, just match it, just match what I'm doing. And lots of times then they find that kind of intriguing, because it's kind of like a game, like we're matching each other and trying to mirror one another. And that seems to help, because it kind of gets away from the you against me, or me trying to control your anxiety, or trying to stop you from being afraid. And I think many times that's
actually what parents are trying to do. It's not actually calming the body. It's just stopping the kid from looking at you know, like they're scared.

Tamar Chansky (21:40.803)
Yes, exactly. That made me think of one, the soft cell, absolutely. That's a great, yeah, great approach. But sometimes it is the calming that is a helpful direction and another, so sort of slowing things down. And sometimes kids need to move. And that is another way of down regulating the nervous system. So you might know your child that,

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:47.971)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (22:8.546)
they do better when they're, if you said, look, we can sit here and just, need to slow down for a second, but we can do that here together or we could go walk the dog. What feel, or do you have another idea? So just moving can also kind of burn off that adrenaline. And sometimes that's more helpful for some kids. So just another choice to put out there.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:32.491)
Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that. That's a really good point. Cause I think we do, or at least I do as a parent often think, we've got to let's just bring everything down. But how often that actually would help to get some movement going, you know, with your, with your little. Yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (22:48.845)
Just putting that, you know, it's really human to human. We all are sort of built the same way. But, you know, yeah, so some of this works for some people, this works for other people. What do you think? What what feels, you know, like what you would like to do?

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:55.854)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:4.794)
Well, then another question we're really interested in hearing your thoughts on is, ⁓ you know, a big part of what we want to do with our kids ⁓ is probably when we were growing up, you know, like I remember being at an amusement park with my parents and I was anxious about the roller coaster because it had some loop-de-loops in it, right? And I was scared to death of this. And my dad was like very serious. He's like, you're riding this roller coaster. If you don't, then you can just go home or something like that, you know? And it was like,
this all or nothing. And I remember, you in my child, I did write it a lot of tears. I did write it, but then I loved it. You know, so then part of it was like to my dad, he's like, look at that. It worked, right? This is how this is how you help your kid overcome their fears is you just threaten them with a bigger fear. And then that will help them face that fear. ⁓ So we and having kids like, don't think we want to do that. ⁓ But but we did notice at times and with people
you know, other people ⁓ who are wanting to parent differently than that kind of authoritarian style ⁓ is they really struggled on helping their kids face their fears. It ended up being like the fears and the anxiety seemed to control their kids and they don't know because they don't want to push them, just like push them into the pool and say swim, ⁓ you know, what's the other option for those parents when they're like, I want to help them do that. I don't want to just say, hey, if you're scared, don't do it. But I also don't want to shove them into it.

Tamar Chansky (24:20.396)
Yep. Yep.

Tamar Chansky (24:29.602)
⁓ Yes, ⁓ and let's just say Kyle that that was lucky that that worked out.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:36.540)
Yes, that's right. Yes. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (24:38.402)
Because I certainly have had some other kids who come in, you know, and they're like, I am never doing that again. My parents made me, you know, okay, so that worked out.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:41.228)
Yes!
Yes. Yeah. Well, that's Brussels sprouts. Yeah. I was made to Brussels sprouts. I've never touched them again.

Tamar Chansky (24:54.762)
I'm so sorry, because they're ⁓ so good. Maybe, yeah, Sarah, I don't know how you feel about it, but it might be a desensitization process that could be helpful. ⁓ And it's done before Thanksgiving, ⁓ But I, you know, so when, yeah, it's such an important point. We want to have other options besides kind of parents will say, you know, do I force my child to do this? And, you know, or just say, forget it and, know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:24.066)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (25:24.662)
And there's so many ⁓ options in between which might be, let's say, if you don't have time for a conversation, ⁓ a sideline, the conversation would be, it's okay to feel scared. This is new. You don't know how it works, right? Do you wanna stand and kind of watch the Ferris wheel or whatever, and just see, look at the faces. Are people happy or they scared? Just...

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:46.872)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (25:51.235)
So a lot of times, again, just having that support, you're not, I say, you can leave the area, but try to go, stay as close as possible in a sense so that your child can still observe how things work. Because when we know how they work, likely, that's so much better than what our imagination is telling us about how they are. So asking a child to, if they wanna observe,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:3.660)
Yeah, yeah.

Tamar Chansky (26:20.640)
or what part seems the most scary or how to practice a part of it. ⁓ know, ⁓ kids practicing ⁓ in their backyards, the, you know, the soccer tryout or the, you know, the play or something like that. ⁓ Or ⁓ if you have a child who's especially socially anxious or just new situations are difficult, going and checking out the roller skating place before the party the next week, just so they see we're looking at it online. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:46.082)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (26:50.786)
You know, the thing is, we kids who may have anxiety, I mean, everybody has some anxiety, but, you know, their imaginations, as we said, are just so vivid. And they're, they're always looking at the worst thing. If they look at what something is that's begins to change, you have that conversation between the two pictures and ascend what they're seeing. You know, you could say like, it's fine, it's gonna be fun. You know, that will jump.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:11.693)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:17.688)
That's right. Yes. Yes. ⁓

Tamar Chansky (27:18.850)
⁓ do nothing except maybe they'll be mad that you're not hearing them or understanding. So ⁓ I get it that it's, you know, that you're having a lot of fear, you know, what's what's your worry telling you about this? ⁓ What do you think? Can we fact check it? Do you is there something that would be helpful to do to kind of learn more about this to see, you know, so it might be looking at something online or maybe practicing in real life. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:23.468)
Yes. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (27:48.447)
And the thing about this ⁓ is once you understand where you're headed with ideas like that, it doesn't have to take a whole long time. ⁓ Life moves so quickly. We're all over scheduled over this, over that, right? But once you know what you, the kinds of things that you wanna say, you have those phrases a little bit more front of your mind, then ⁓ these things don't have to take,

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:58.690)
Mmm.

Tamar Chansky (28:18.018)
take an hour out, have a of a therapy session in your living room. It really doesn't have to be like that. It could be driving in the car at the kitchen table, and maybe it's like a 10 minute conversation. And kids start to then learn that these situations can be solved, that you can work through your fears. You can see what you wanna keep, what not.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:30.510)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (28:45.696)
you know what you need to do to practice. So it has the effect in the moment of shrinking worries down to kind of the most important parts. And in the big picture, it just begins to shift the relationship, like you were saying, doesn't have to be the enemy. It's not ⁓ trying to be a friend, ⁓ you know, ⁓ but shift the relationship of how you see these messages.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:5.474)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tamar Chansky (29:11.072)
that you already kind of anticipate that you're going to know what to do to be in that conversation with your, you know, with the messages that your brain is telling you. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:20.620)
So it sounds like if I could unpack that, there's several good things I wanna make sure our listeners get out of that. One is the sense of proximity, that if a kid's saying, I don't wanna do that, it's like, well, that's okay. We're not saying we need to do that, but we are gonna get close to it, right? So we're gonna look at that roller coaster or we're gonna go drive over to that school, right? And maybe just look at it because what's connected to anxiety ⁓ is the imagination starts to develop this really scary.
worst case scenario story, right? And I think every parent can relate to that in their own personal life. And so once I can actually see what is real, rather than just what I've imagined, typically that information will help ⁓ the kid or the adult to start regulate, regulating that anxiety better. And they can now more realistically ⁓ think about that and feel about it in a way that's that we can unpack, right? Then we can have these conversations. And that that led to that third step of just building
skill of having those conversations, making it a normal thing, right? Instead of the skill of stuffing the anxiety, hiding it, masking it, learn how to just make it really comfortable to talk about it. ⁓ And ⁓ I think the hardest part ⁓ for a lot of parents I work with is they're just not comfortable doing that in their marriage. They're not comfortable doing that in their own personal life, right? And so I think they're just not in the habit of befriending it and seeing it as something they can actually talk about.
in a way that doesn't lead to a lot of scary thoughts. You know, is that they feel like if I expose it, there's a lot of shame, like I shouldn't be scared of that. ⁓ so I might be judged for that, you know, all that, because they, they probably experienced that kind of like I was a little bit as a kid at the role. It's like, why are you scared of this? You shouldn't be scared of that, you know? And so there is some shame about it. So I'm wondering, you know, what I'd love to hear is, do you have, ⁓ like, if somebody was saying today, I want to get better.

Tamar Chansky (30:50.966)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:15.670)
not only as a parent, but with my kids, of creating a relationship with anxiety that isn't so overwhelming. I want it to be where I'm more comfortable facing it on a daily basis. Is there some habits that somebody could start implementing today on a daily basis to just start getting more comfortable with that or more comfortable with those conversations?

Tamar Chansky (31:34.785)
Yeah, that's wonderful. think it's such a good point. And the more that we work on that ourselves, then we'll ⁓ feel more comfortable going down those roads with our kids too. But I think, ⁓ I ⁓ frame this as a relationship, ⁓ that the more that you can see anxiety as a messenger, just like any, well, yeah, anyone. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:44.653)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (32:3.478)
anyone that we encounter, right? That we are going to decide what to do with that message. You know, I work with a lot of folks with OCD and I say that's kind of like a junk mail message or spam. It's not personal, you know, and it's really help empower you to sort of understand that these are just sort of impersonal default messages that come up. And OCD is a little different, but you know, there's some... ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:16.664)
Mmm, mmm, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:28.046)
Sure.

Tamar Chansky (32:30.666)
ways that anxiety could fit at least understanding that that's the warning part of the brain that we're grateful for that there if we were crossing a street and a you know car just came out of nowhere that we would help that you know mobilization to jump back onto the sidewalk to safety but it's just it's sort of it's always going to say the worst thing and it's going to get there first and if you understand that then you can ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:40.269)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (33:0.864)
you know, get curious, decide what you want to do. So you could even, ⁓ you know, start to think like, what's my anxiety? Okay, what's my anxiety telling me here? See it in kind of two columns, ⁓ you know, think of those in one column, and then fact check in the other. What if I were talking to a friend about that friend told me those things? What would I think? Would I would I think that was true? Or would I, you know, have a different idea about it? Just you start to ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:10.626)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (33:30.562)
⁓ diminish the authority of those thoughts as soon as you think like, you can't do that. You know, it's like, okay, my brain is telling me I can't. And I feel part of me feels like I can't think in parts. It's another part of me have a different idea, you know, ⁓ if I were talking to a friend about this, what would I say? What's the hardest part? And is there something I can do about that? So ⁓ yeah, talking to ⁓ you know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:34.082)
Hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:37.709)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (34:0.707)
talking to your anxiety, talking, know, the, you know, the inside out movies, ⁓ based on, you know, really how we function, that you could think about that way, you know, think about your emotions that way too, that they're just, they have to be in conversation with each other.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:6.466)
Yes, yes, fantastic. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:22.072)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, and what I love about that movie will be so good for parents who haven't shown their kids it, show it to them. You know, that way then you can see it as this thing separate. I think it's so important is that separation. So I kind of liked that idea of helping kids, especially teenagers and stuff would understand the idea of getting email and that, you know, I spend most of my day trashing the ones I'm going boom, boom, boom, boom, just getting rid of all the ones because you do feel anxious if you lump them all into priority. Like that's going to be way
too overwhelming, but if you start getting rid of some and then you go, wait, I only have like three that I actually need to reply to that now that's totally manageable. Right? So in the same way, like you're saying, if people can get into the habit ⁓ of ⁓ one, not seeing anxiety as an enemy, but a friend. And so when you feel anxious, it's just they're trying to talk to you. So like you said, just then unpack it. What is it saying?

Tamar Chansky (35:15.296)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:20.050)
And is this something I can just toss? Is this something that maybe I need to discuss further? that right? It sounds like it kind of that that's the good habit to get into. And if you as a parent get into that habit, then you teach your kid daily to get into that habit. Just do that check in on a daily basis.

Tamar Chansky (35:35.139)
Yeah, you know, I kind of crystallize this into one example that just happens all day long, which is, you know, a child comes in or a teen comes in and says, I'm so anxious. And what are the options there? We could start to reassure it's OK or whatever it is or like, you know, something like that or distract or, know.
⁓ A third option really is to do that differentiation to say, okay, yeah, what's your worry telling you? So right there, that's just one thing. mean, ⁓ for parents, you would definitely wanna empathize and say, okay, I get it. I have moments like that, I had that earlier today. ⁓ But what's your worry saying? That helps kids know that they are not fused with their anxiety, it's they're not one and the same.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:10.668)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:19.160)
Yeah. ⁓ Yep.

Tamar Chansky (36:31.586)
that they can begin to kind of analyze and evaluate what those thoughts are and decide what they need to do.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:39.406)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a big step and just something that even I forget to do that lots of times, you know, like I'm taking that thought right now. I think there's several clients. I want to start giving that question to them because just the way you're phrasing it is very, it's going to help them reflect more on it and just be more curious about it rather than just thinking they're just going to be overtaken by it. Yeah. Yeah. I love the, I love the idea of, of, um,
taking that message and analyzing it, you know, but asking the kid, what do you think of that? ⁓ You know, like, here's the message. What, what do you think of that? Cause it, feels so empowering to me to give that kid that ability to kind of, it's almost like they're just, imagine them almost taking the thought and looking at it like they would a toy or a, some puzzle or something. And now they're just analyzing it and thinking, you know, you're kind of asking them what, what's inside of you? What do you, what's your thought about it? Cause we want to always tell them our thoughts about it.

Tamar Chansky (37:35.104)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:35.340)
But how neat it is to ask them, what do you think about what this message is saying? And ⁓ do you believe it or do you know, whatever that might be, but just what do they think of it? And I love the power it to me sounds like it gives the child in that moment with the fear that's talking to them. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (37:55.361)
Absolutely. want kids, you know, whether it's messages on the outside, that kid said it wasn't cool. ⁓ That hurts. But what do you think about that? You know, it really is that kind of thing that you want them to feel empowered, whether it's inner messages or things happening on the outside, that they're ultimately the one who decides what the meaning is of the things that, you know, happen within and around them.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:3.916)
Yeah, yep. ⁓
now.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:23.584)
Yeah, well, Dr. Chansky, this conversation has been so good and we could spend so much more time talking to you about all the different types of OCD stuff, ⁓ all those different things. ⁓ But if they, if our listeners are saying, hey, I want to know more about how to dive into this, ⁓ you know, discussion about anxiety, how could they find out more about your work?

Tamar Chansky (38:43.062)
Yeah, so, and it's just been such a pleasure and I feel like we could do another round. So we'll see, yeah, maybe.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:47.980)
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tamar Chansky (38:50.230)
We'll go again, but that was just wonderful to talk together. So my website, tamarajanski.com, there I've written years and years of blog posts there. ⁓ And so there's a great search function if you have an anxiety about perfection, know, perfectionism, school anxiety, know, sleep anxiety, just put it in the search, there's probably a post about it. So there are a lot of resources there, my books are there.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:6.030)
⁓ great, yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:19.245)
Yeah.

Tamar Chansky (39:19.330)
⁓ And you know for those on Instagram, you know, you can put the handle tomorrow, chance PhD. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:24.896)
Yes. Yes, that's awesome. And we'll put all that in our show notes. So once again, thank you for taking the time with us to discuss this very important topic to so many families all throughout the world. And I hope this empowered every parent to see anxiety and fear differently in themselves and in their kids. So thank you for joining us today.

Tamar Chansky (39:46.947)
Thank you so much. ⁓