Episode 178

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:19.552)
Everyone listening to this podcast right now is passionate about raising their kids, passionate about parenting and not doing it perfectly, but doing it well. And in the world of parenting, there are few voices that have made a bigger impact than the guests we're going to have on today. Dr. Tina Payne Bryson ⁓ is an author of many books, but specifically to New York times bestsellers that transformed how Sarah and I parented the whole brain child. I'm sure you've heard of it.
No drama discipline. Both of those were huge books, but she's also spoken about parenting on Good Morning America, in the New York Times, in the Washington Post. ⁓ She goes all over the country ⁓ speaking about interpersonal neurobiology, about how to raise kids that are resilient and can overcome ⁓ tough things in today's culture, about how to connect with your kids. She actually started her own place to help with this called the Center for
connection ⁓ in California. And so we are so excited and just giddy almost about having her on as a guest today because ⁓ it has been a journey of just reaching out and hoping she would come on. And she finally said yes. So we are excited about you getting to meet and hear the wisdom from Dr. Tina Payne-Bryson. And she is going to blow you away with so much information. If you can take notes, do it. If you're running or exercising, you're in the car.
⁓ Definitely go back and listen to it later because she is going to give you so many fantastic techniques, so many ways to better understand your relationship with your child and the power you have as a parent ⁓ in shaping and forming your child ⁓ through the early years all the way up through the teenage years. So I know you are definitely going to walk away with so much fantastic information to help you be the parent you want to be. So if you haven't done already, please take a moment to pause.
and leave a review, comment, all those things really help us be able to reach more parents throughout the world. It increases our numbers and moves us up in the chart. So please take a moment to do that if you haven't done that already and then sit back and enjoy our interview with Dr. Tina Payne-Brierson.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.080)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, sometimes you have these like pinch me moments, right? Right. Where you're like, ⁓ do we get to talk to this person today? ⁓ And like, I mean, ⁓ I know this past year we've had like this phenomenal opportunity to talk to different people ⁓ in this space of parenting, right? And ⁓ some of them have impacted us more than others, right?
But when I look back at raising our three kids, one of the voices, not only through her books, but through her speaking events with Dr. Dan Siegel, ⁓ every time it transformed how I saw my relationship with our kids. ⁓ And so we were so excited to get the chance for this audience to be able to meet Dr. ⁓ Tina Payne Bryson. And she's coming in here as like, mean, Tina, you've written how many books now?

Tina Bryson (0:56.448)
six books and three workbooks. I'm tired though. I'm really tired. don't wanna, I'm probably putting up, I'm probably pausing that for a while.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:58.528)
Okay, so and those books ⁓ like, yeah, yeah, but like the whole brainchild New York Times bestseller, right? ⁓ No drama discipline also on that list and many other books after that every time they came out, we got we got those books and we read them. ⁓ And so ⁓ we, you know, we really wanted to first say thank you for coming on to

Tina Bryson (1:17.910)
Thank you.

Tina Bryson (1:22.884)
⁓ thank you so much for having me. I ⁓ love the passion that you guys bring to your podcasts, to your clinical professional work as well. And I'm just really excited to be here with you today.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:35.262)
And so what we wanted to do today is we wanted to dive into a topic, Tina, that we have kind of brushed around. We haven't really dived deep into it simply because ⁓ we're not experts in this particular science. ⁓ We know something about it. We teach it. Anytime we're coaching parents, we definitely make it a part of that coaching process. But I thought, dang, we have Tina Payne-Brierson on the thing. We want to ⁓ talk about interpersonal neurobiology.
And if you could kind of just explain to the audience what that is, what that science is about.

Tina Bryson (2:7.668)
Yeah, it sounds really fancy, but really it's looking at how relationships in particular shape the brain, how relational experiences ⁓ in a moment and over time change who we are at the neurological ⁓ level. And really anytime today I talk about the brain or neurology or anything, ⁓ I'm not talking about just the organ in our skull. I'm talking about our whole nervous system. ⁓ And I came to interpersonal neurobiology. I was working on a PhD in social work and
⁓ I had already done, ⁓ I'd already been an educator. I had already done some clinical work, ⁓ but I was getting a PhD. I thought I might want to do some, I might want to be a professor and a researcher also. ⁓ But what happened was I was a really frustrated grad student because I was hearing things like, for example, ⁓ borderline personality disorder, best evidence-based treatment is, you know, ⁓
DBT and I would say, okay, fine, great. But why, what is the mechanism for change that that treatment has for that particular disorder versus others or versus other treatments? And I really was just constantly wanting to understand ⁓ mechanism and change and how change happened. And I was particularly interested in child rearing and parenting and child development. had, I started this grad school program with an 18 month old and I kept having babies in the program between
When I started and when I graduated and finished my dissertation, had had three, I had three children. ⁓ So, ⁓ so I was just constantly frustrated and ⁓ my mom is a clinical psychologist. ⁓ she was a stay at home mom all my growing up years, and then in her forties went back to school. ⁓ but she and I heard about this conference called, ⁓ I don't remember. ⁓ no, I can't remember the name of the conference anyway, but it was, it was at USC where I was a grad student ⁓ and, ⁓ Dan Siegel was the keynote.
And this would have been in 2000, 2001. He didn't have a huge name at the time, but he got up and started talking about interpersonal neurobiology. And I was like, who is this guy? I grabbed my mom's arm and I was like, I have a professional crush. I have to go study with him. So then I studied for nine years with Dan in addition, coming out of my, you know, through my PhD program. And what I started, changed my whole career trajectory. I no longer wanted to be a professor or a researcher. I wanted to go and teach.

Tina Bryson (4:27.978)
the science of interpersonal neurobiology to parents, to therapists, to educators, to business owners. ⁓ Now I'm working with Nike, working with athletes doing it. But here's what I love about it. It helped me understand and think about change and mechanism and how we are not ⁓ victim to our circumstances and our emotions. And we are not victim to our child's behaviors and emotions either.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:52.866)
Yes. Yes.

Tina Bryson (4:54.400)
that the repeated experiences we provide don't just change the mind or the behavior or an attitude, it actually changes how the brain fires and wires. So I think about, I think specifically what you're thinking about as we're talking about interpersonal neurobiology, we're looking at the brain, the mind. So the mind is like what we give attention to, what strategies we might use, our own personal experiences of the world.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:6.339)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (5:22.612)
and then relationships. And we can use the brain, the mind or relationships in a moment and over time to change what is happening. So let me give an example. There was this amazing study that was done on chickens. They scared a bunch of chickens, they freaked them out. ⁓ And I never knew why they did that, why the study was done, but I had an agriculture professor in my audience last spring that explained to me that when chickens are freaked out, they trample each other and ⁓ it's terrible. And so they...

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:38.530)
Okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:50.711)
Yes. ⁓

Tina Bryson (5:51.052)
The farmers would be, are interested in the purpose of the study. They freaked all these chickens out. The purpose was what helps chickens calm down the fastest. That's what they wanted to know. They freaked out the chickens ⁓ and the chickens that stayed freaked out the longest were chickens who were looking in a mirror. Now chickens do not have theory of mind, meaning they don't know that they're looking at themselves. They think they're looking at another freaked out chicken.
So the chickens who were the most freaked out were the chickens who were looking at another freaked out chicken, even though it was actually themselves. Now chickens aren't as smart as humans are. ⁓ I love this example so much because ⁓ we are, children not only mirror our states, so if we're freaked out chickens, they are freaked out chickens, but we are also meaning makers for our children.
So what that means is when our children see us freaked out, like we're not perfect, we are gonna be freaked out chickens sometimes, right? When our children see us freaked out, what is the meaning we help create around that? ⁓ Or like, let me give another example, like I'm playing Yahtzee with my boys, they start fighting. ⁓ I should have just set the boundary. I should have just said, this isn't fun for me. If you guys are gonna continue to fight, I'm gonna remove my, I'm done playing. That's what I should have done. But I didn't, they continued to fight.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:48.918)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:6.378)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (7:13.427)
I started moving into sarcasm, ⁓ immature sarcasm. great, fun family game time guys. This is so fun, you know that kind of thing, which is sort of the cue I'm about to flip my lid. And I ended up yelling at them and throwing the dice around the room. Okay, so now ⁓ I am really angry. ⁓ I've lost control of myself and from an attachment perspective, I've violated their sense of safety, not because I've hurt them.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:21.623)
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.

Tina Bryson (7:38.998)
but because the person who's supposed to keep them safe from a tiger that might eat them is not even in control of herself, how can she be in charge of what's happening and keep us safe? So I've just violated a sense of safety, but my children know immediately I'm gonna come make the repair with them. So they're actually not that stressed out. They can tolerate that discomfort and ⁓ ickiness in the relationship because I've just, they know I'm gonna come make the repair. ⁓ So in that moment,

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:47.926)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:54.434)
Yep. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:2.850)
Yeah, they trust that. They trust you. They trust you that you'll come back to it. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (8:6.475)
Yeah, and they've had enough reps that their brain has wired to predict and anticipate that, right? So what's amazing about that moment is, yeah, so let me say that again. I think that was kind of important. I just saw you guys look at each other. I'm like, yeah. So the brain is a prediction machine. So it's always anticipating what comes next, right? So what happens then is when I lose it and I act insane, even though they don't like it and it's uncomfortable,

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:8.514)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:17.376)
I know, no that was good. Yes, I like that. it again. ⁓

Tina Bryson (8:34.793)
based on all the repeated experiences or at least the majority of them, their brain has wired to predict that I'm gonna come make things right and the relationship's gonna be fine in just a moment. So that actually creates what we would call relational resilience, right? ⁓ But what's so important there too is what happens in terms of the meaning making. ⁓ So now ⁓ I'm like stressed and I'm chaotic, so they're mirroring my states, they feel stress and chaos inside, right? They're mirroring me.
⁓ And we know that we watch videos of spouses that like, or partners that like pretend that something scary is going on and they scream and the other partner's like, what, You know, we, we really do mirror each other. We actually have mirror neurons that hold us captive to one another's nervous systems. ⁓ But then the meaning making comes. So they look to me and I can, I can either create meaning around that experience and say, if you guys hadn't stopped, if you guys had stopped fighting, like I told you to, that wouldn't have happened. So I could have created the meaning.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:12.622)
⁓ Yes. ⁓ Yes. Yes.

Tina Bryson (9:32.137)
It's your fault that that just happened ⁓ and you control my emotions, right? That's the meaning that comes when I say that versus if I say, ⁓ I am sorry. I wish I had handled that differently. I got really angry and I did not handle that well. Can I have a do-over? I'd really like to do that again. I really wish I had handled that differently, right? So then the meaning I create is I make mistakes when we have conflict, we repair.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:37.356)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:54.232)
Yeah, yeah.

Tina Bryson (10:0.830)
I am responsible for my own behavior no matter what anybody else does. So there's tons of like ⁓ rich meaning around the things that we say. But I also want to caution people because when people read no drama discipline and whole brain child in particular, and then power of showing up as well, they will often say, I had a 20 minute reflective dialogue with my child about their feelings about putting their shoes on, but I still can't get them to school. And I want to be really clear.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:17.805)
Yes, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:23.139)
Hahaha

Tina Bryson (10:28.147)
As much as I talk about emotional responsiveness and attunement and connection, they need us to be the leaders. They need us to be in charge. That helps them feel safe. So you can say, we are getting in the car and we are putting shoes on. And if you need to cry about that, I'm right here with you while you cry. So we can say, ⁓ have firm boundaries and say no to a behavior while saying yes to our child. all that to say, I know I really haven't talked about interpersonal neurobiology except to say,

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:34.338)
Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:43.864)
Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:50.446)
Love that, love that.
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (10:55.605)
They mirror our states. That's how the nervous system is set up. We are meaning makers for our children ⁓ and that we are not victim to our children's behavior and circumstance. So I'll say one more thing ⁓ and that is the way we respond to our children in the moment is often about survive. This is a big idea that we start whole brain child with. But if we handle it in ways holding their
their developing brains in mind, knowing how much our relationship with them is the key factor for how they turn out. We can actually give them the kinds of repeated experience. So we're in the survive moment, right? So our kid won't go to sleep, they won't get out of the bathtub, they're screaming and splashing us and we, you know, we're dying to yell and we can talk about how to handle that. ⁓ But in that moment, the way I survive that moment is actually probably gonna help my kid thrive.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:43.310)
⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tina Bryson (11:52.669)
if I either handle it in a way that helps build their brain or build skills, or I don't, but I make a repair. ⁓ So ⁓ we kind of can win either way. But how we respond in the moment is going to influence what is happening in their nervous system. So we can get a higher upstairs brain response ⁓ by the way that we connect and co-regulate and then move them into that state. Or we can, we can.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:58.838)
Yes, yes. So good. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (12:20.006)
make them flip their lids, we can poke their downstairs brain and have more reactivity. And we often think it's the other way around, they're doing that to our brains, but we actually, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:21.538)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Yes. It does. It does feel that way. You know, Tina, I remember this is how ridiculous it can be when you don't understand this stuff, because obviously you guys hadn't written this book when our oldest was a baby. Right. So I was not thinking at all about interpersonal neurobiology. And I remember nine months around that time after our oldest was born, Sarah was going to go back to work or, know, and so Sarah had said to me, Hey,
It's easy, here's all you gotta do. And when she's hungry, just take this bottle. And I'm like, look, and I'm like, ⁓ I've seen her do it a lot. Like, surely I can figure this out. And I remember it was so scary. Like, I'm holding Abby, ⁓ Abby would not take the bottle, she was not eating, and like.

Tina Bryson (13:0.788)
Sarah, you lied. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:17.038)
I was so anxious and so afraid. And I was thinking like, I suck as a dad. I slept like how is Sarah ever gonna love me if I can't even feed her a baby? So Tina, I actually drove her to the babysitter who watched her occasionally. And I watched as the babysitter fed our baby. And I felt like such a loser. And I felt like such an incompetent father. But I didn't realize that that interpersonal dance was happening that.

Tina Bryson (13:18.396)
stressful. Yeah.
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (13:26.868)
Hahaha ⁓

Tina Bryson (13:35.720)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:44.706)
that I was actually making it impossible for Abby to eat the food. Because Abby could feel, yeah, she could feel my muscles were tight, my heart was beating fast. she's probably like, ⁓ am I gonna die? And I'm like, you might. Because I don't know how to do this. Yes. And it was just, ⁓ once I learned the information and understood, ⁓ then I look back at that and I think, my gosh, how many times am I doing that even now that they're.

Tina Bryson (13:48.874)
Cause you were stressed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (13:57.618)
Yeah. You're like hurry and eat. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:13.262)
you know, five, six, seven, eight, where I'm making it almost impossible for them to do the thing I'm asking because my interstate is so dysregulated.

Tina Bryson (14:14.430)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (14:22.186)
Yeah, or you have a, nonverbal communication is screaming threat. You know, have an angry look on your face and your tone of voice and your muscle, like all those things. And then we're like, calm down, right? And it's actually really funny when you think about that. I think so much of the time as a parent, think that the thing that, know, mine are 25, 22 and 19 now. And still, as I've moved from kind of like, I love this,

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:26.774)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:33.719)
Yes. ⁓

Tina Bryson (14:47.546)
analogy, this idea and lots of people talk about it. I can't credit it to one person because it's from lots of different people, but the idea of moving from manager to coach to consultant kind of, you know, this, this role shift. ⁓ And I think, ⁓ still in my interaction. when my 19 year old calls me from college and there's a problem, you know, can't figure out how to work the laundry machine or, know, I don't have money on my swipe card to do the laundry or whatever it is. And if I immediately, cause

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:56.472)
Yes, yes, yeah, I love that too, yeah, yeah.

Tina Bryson (15:15.016)
you know, he's one week away at school and I'm used to helping solve problems and stuff. And I start getting like, well, you know, and I start kind of getting a little frenetic, like wanting to solve, right? ⁓ The exercise I constantly try to do is to just pause once, literally one, two seconds and ask myself, and you get much quicker at this if you practice it, ⁓ is my inclination and my instinct and how I'm starting to respond here.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:24.524)
Yeah, yeah, of course.

Tina Bryson (15:43.307)
about my kid and what's gonna help them, or is this about me and what's gonna help me? Because so much of the time, I 100 % am guilty of this over function or over freak out or start kind of like solving before my kid can even have a chance to think about what solution that they should come up with. I do that because when I solve and fix it, it makes me feel more regulated. That's what helps me feel like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:52.760)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:10.550)
Yes. ⁓

Tina Bryson (16:12.788)
but that is not in the best interest of my child. It's much better for my child to sit in the discomfort and wrestle with it and figure it out and have the anxiety and then get regulated again with my support. Like, so I can say, yeah, that sounds like kind of a ⁓ tricky problem. ⁓ Stop talking, right? Instead of, okay, well, here's what you should do. And have you asked anyone? Well, let me go on chat GPT and figure out, like, right? So I I popped a pause and say, am I respond, like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:28.556)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:35.318)
Yes. Yes.

Tina Bryson (16:42.164)
grounded first ⁓ and ask myself, ⁓ is my reaction right now about my internal state or is it really about meeting where my child is?

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:52.886)
Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. Yeah. I, yeah. Yeah. That's what I was thinking as I listened to you, think, man. ⁓ The other day I picked my kids up and it took them a while to get out of class and we had an appointment to go to. And so by the time they got in the car, ⁓ I was so worried and so stressed. We're going to be late and we might, you know, this, you know, if you're too late for an appointment, it's a big problem. You know, all this, all this stuff.

Tina Bryson (16:55.220)
huge and hard.

Tina Bryson (17:6.728)
Yeah. Stress.

Tina Bryson (17:16.060)
Right. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:18.920)
And so I was worked at my son got in and he was calm. He was all excited about his day. He's going to tell me about his day. And I realized we barely made it out of the parking lot before he raised his voice at me and he yelled, he not yelled, but you know, he was like mad at me and he caught himself and, he said, okay, I'm not mad at you. And he, know, but as he was trying to work through it, I thought to myself, well, that was me. ⁓ You know, I was just so dysregulated when he got in the car.

Tina Bryson (17:24.746)
Hehehehe

Tina Bryson (17:39.177)
Amazing.

Tina Bryson (17:43.466)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (17:46.868)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:47.212)
And I instantly jumped into you guys are lame. What's happening with this pickup process and we have this appointment to get to, you know, ⁓ but I became aware of even though he, saw him catch himself and I thought, wow, that's, but really it was on me, ⁓ you know, and I just, just sit there. ⁓

Tina Bryson (17:53.481)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (18:1.972)
Sarah, ⁓ I love that story so much. First of all, it's universal. It happens probably every week for every family. ⁓ And the rush of time is very dysregulating because it's so stressful. And we're also holding so much. ⁓ if that gets messed up, the rest of the day gets messed up. so that is such a great story. But I love it so much because that was such a masterful way to kind of describe the power that we have. And I don't mean power is in control.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:6.892)
Yes. Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:17.772)
Yes. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:29.016)
Yeah. Yep.

Tina Bryson (18:30.931)
but I mean the ability to ⁓ be in charge of our own nervous systems in a way that really become leaders for our children's nervous systems ⁓ and to kind of like catch it and go, okay, that was really about that and that's why that happened. So I wanna say two things. Number one, ⁓ one of the things that I, because I'm an attachment specialist, that's one of my areas of expertise. I wrote dissertation on it. I've studied it, I've written a book about it and I think I'm just.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:40.706)
Yes, yep.

Tina Bryson (18:59.655)
I'm obsessed with the science because it's so hopeful with a ton of grace and forgiveness for all of us. ⁓ And it really helps clarify what's most important. ⁓ And so in the power of showing up, we talk about the four S's, helping our kids feel safe and seen, ⁓ understood, like what's happening on their inside, soothed, so we help regulate them and calm them down and comfort them when they're having a hard time. ⁓ And then the fourth S is then they become secure in knowing that we're gonna continue to show up for them even in their worst times.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:3.586)
Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:28.206)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (19:28.359)
And I think about security as your brain wiring to predict that. ⁓ So one of the ways that that plays out practically for me and has is I work really hard to make sure that our home and our cars, these places that are kind of the places we spend a lot of time together where a lot ⁓ of the crap happens, frankly, that those are places that ⁓ I am like a moat dragon around my own nervous system and what's happening.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:31.586)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:42.008)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (19:56.776)
that those are safe havens, that those are places that when they get, so as I'm in the pickup line, I'm saying this car is like, they've been in the stormy seas all day, come into this little harbor of my car ⁓ and they come in and ⁓ that is like before I get there, that is a prompt for me to remember. And then same thing when they walk in the house and it's not happening a lot of times, but it's a thing to aim for is to say, I want them to come out of the world and go,

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:7.010)
Yes, yep, Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (20:26.441)
⁓ thank God I'm with my people that I can be regulated with. ⁓ The other thing I want to say is let's define regulation for a second, because we all talk about it a lot. ⁓ And Dan, Dan Siegel, my co-author, I heard him, he was doing this, ⁓ this training and I, I ⁓ was listening to the recording of it and he defined regulation in a way that I was like, yes, that's what we're going for.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:35.180)
Yeah, Yep. ⁓

Tina Bryson (20:51.729)
And he talks about the ability to monitor and modify. So when I'm talking about temperature regulation, ⁓ I have to notice or monitor, I'm really warm right now. I'm gonna take off my jacket or, ⁓ I'm chilly. I need a wrap, you know? ⁓ But I have to be able to notice it and monitor what I need and then modify it. And so this is what emotional regulation is as well. It's the ability to monitor like you did, Sarah, like,
I'm really, I'm really feeling like the pressure and the stress here. So now I need to take a breath. I need to put on some music and sing, because we actually know that singing and humming is really, really regulating and it releases a lot of nervous system arousal. ⁓ I need to have my kid tell me a joke so we can laugh. That does the same thing. ⁓ Just like yelling and crying does. So does laughter and singing. ⁓ And so you were able to do that. So then let's take the next step.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:30.990)
⁓ Yep.

Tina Bryson (21:47.358)
So he's gonna mirror your state. So your regulation is really sort of just reverberating in the car, good or bad. So co-regulation is the ability to ⁓ monitor and modify your child's state. So you're noticing, my kid ⁓ is feeling really resentful right now, or they feel like something's unfair, or ⁓ they're frustrated, they're sad, they're embarrassed, whatever it is. So I'm monitoring how they're feeling.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:53.453)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:1.134)
Hmm.

Tina Bryson (22:16.869)
That's also called attunement. And then I can help modify it by how I respond in the moment. So let's say you have a kid, my four year old in the bathtub won't get out. He's screaming, he's splashing, I'm not getting out. So I have a choice in that moment. Here's what my first instinct is. You are getting out ⁓ and ⁓ yank him out and say, if you keep crying, you're not getting a story tonight. Which by the way, is only gonna hurt me more than him. Then we have a battle around that.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:18.636)
Yes, yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (22:46.877)
So I can do that, but you know what I'm gonna do when I do that? If I come in with power and control and threat and reactivity myself, guess what? We're gonna just have a reactivity party for hours after that, right? So what I'm doing is I am sending signals to his downstairs brain, which is the brainstem, the midbrain that is much more reactive without the prefrontal, the higher part of our brain that's still developing in our kids all the way into the mid to late 20s.
⁓ So it's vulnerable to ⁓ going offline and then we act out of these more reactive impulsive ways, ⁓ angrier. ⁓ And so the prefrontal cortex then is the part of the brain that helps us turn down that arousal. It helps us regulate our emotions, regulate our body, pause and make calm kind choices, ⁓ problem solve. It's also the part of the brain that says, don't say that, ⁓ which we need sometimes as parents. Cause we have, I have cuss words and... ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:38.562)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yep. ⁓ That's right, yes. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. That's right.

Tina Bryson (23:42.513)
and lots of threats in my thought clouds, but I'm like, don't say that. ⁓ So in that moment, what I wanna do is move him from this reactive state into being in his whole integrated brain, where he's able to not just work from his more reactive primitive brain, which is wonderful and helps keep us safe. There's no knocking the lower structures of our brain. We celebrate those too. ⁓ But I wanna move him from...

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:5.794)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (24:9.467)
a dysregulated state where his brain is not working together as a coordinated whole into a regulated state where his brain is working as a coordinated whole. How do I do that? Well, we know that the first most important, most effective, because I love what's effective, way to do that is by giving cues of safety because the brain is in a reactive threat state. So I give cues of safety, which means I have to be calm first.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:24.877)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:30.990)
Mm-hmm.

Tina Bryson (24:35.572)
and to co-regulate, to get him back into a state of calm. The way we do that is through cues of safety and connection. ⁓ And so I say to him, now I'm still gonna hold my boundary. I'm gonna keep, help him feel safe because I'm gonna stay regulated and in control of myself. ⁓ And I'm gonna give him cues of safety. Then I'm gonna help him feel seen and understood what he's feeling. I'm gonna soothe him. That's the co-regulation piece. ⁓ So I say, it is time to get out of the bathtub. So wait first.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:42.324)
huh, yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:58.904)
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (25:4.114)
First, I put my hand on my chest and a hand on my belly, and I take a deep breath with a longer exhale than my inhale.

Tina Bryson (25:14.536)
and I do it twice. It's called the physiological sigh. Huberman made it popular, but we've known about it since the 1930s. I've been teaching it for 25 years. It is really ⁓ the quickest thing we know to down-regulate our reactivity. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:15.886)
Yeah. Yes. So important. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and just think of it. Just think of couples did that in the middle of arguments. If they would just stop and do that, right? Like I know we all know it's important, but if we just did that in the middle of a disagreement with our spouses, how impactful that would be just in those discussions, much less in these times with our kids even, you know? So yeah.

Tina Bryson (25:28.477)
⁓ yes.

Tina Bryson (25:37.788)
cute.
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. And you know, it's funny too is our brain is it because it's such a neural network, ⁓ we can actually activate different neural, ⁓ patterns and responses based on what we do with our bodies. So Stan Tatkin, who's a couples therapist says, if you got couples who are fighting to go lay down next to each other and continue their, their fight, they actually can't stay in an argument. They'll move into conversation because

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:6.112)
Yes, yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (26:7.081)
when we're standing up and our hands are on our hips or our arms are folded and we're pushed away from each other, it kind of activates neural circuitry around, this is argument time and we're gonna continue with that versus if you lay down kind of near your partner, usually that's a time of connection or not fighting. So it kind of moves you into that state. I'm always like, I'm not laying down next to you. Like I don't want to do it, but I will say.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:10.434)
Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:21.361)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. We're going to do it. We're going to try this. Yeah, we're going to try. I think it works off. we're going to try that. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (26:32.454)
I'll go back to my story in just a second, but I will say one of the most effective things that I ever taught my clients and now lots of audiences is that when your child is in a dysregulated state, I couldn't do it in this circumstance because he was in the bathtub, I had to keep him safe, ⁓ is to get below eye level, not at eye level of your child, but get below eye level. Sit on the floor, crisscross applesauce, lay on the floor and say two things, something empathetic about how they're feeling. That's the connection part. ⁓ And then I'm, so,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:50.466)
Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:56.908)
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (27:1.380)
Well, you'll hear me actually say it in this part, but basically like you're having a really hard time and then I'm right here with you while you're feeling that it is the quickest way to down regulate a kid that is it works with your spouse to try it. You guys can. ⁓ OK, so JP, he's in the tub. have permission to tell these stories. I say it's time to get out. You can get out or I will get you out and I tell myself, be gentle, be gentle, be gentle, because, you know, so I take these two breaths and as I lift him out of the tub and he's yelling at me, he's so angry.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:3.618)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:13.634)
Yeah, so good. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (27:31.440)
And I know I'm gonna, the behavior is important, but it is, ⁓ this is part of no drama discipline. The brain is either reactive, cannot listen, cannot learn, or it's receptive, ready to learn. If discipline is all about teaching and building skills so they become self-disciplined, they have to be receptive for you to even do it. So in the name of discipline and holding him accountable for his behavior, and in this case, he was a dysregulated four-year-old, so we can give it a minute, ⁓ after a long day of little league and too much sugar, then. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:34.147)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:40.206)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:47.318)
Yep, yep, yep, yeah.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (27:59.899)
we have to move them into a regulated whole brain state before they can even listen and discipline can even be effective. So ⁓ as I'm lifting him out, I practice scene, you're so mad you had to get out. You really wanted that Lego guy in the bathtub with you and you're so mad you had to take a bath without him and you're so mad you have to get out. Is that right? And he's like, yes. ⁓ So I pull him out, I wrap the towel around him and I pull him close to me. And remember I'm taking long, slow breaths. And I say,

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:6.530)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:13.464)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:25.731)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (28:27.278)
Sometimes it's so hard. And I know if you're angry, I'm right here with you while you're angry. So what I'm communicating in that moment is I can handle your big feelings. I love Janet Lansbury's ⁓ phrase, word, unruffled. Like your big emotions are not going to control me. A child doesn't want that burden, right? So I can handle your big emotions and I trust that you can handle your big emotions. I'm not gonna distract you with an iPad. I'm not gonna promise you.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:45.676)
Yeah, it's good. Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (28:55.698)
that you can have 16 baths, okay, fine, you can stay in the bathtub. I'm allowing him to feel it, but with support. And when I talk about this, parents often are like, so he's having bad behavior and you're coddling him. And the way I respond to that is to say, no, I wanna tell you, just like I lift weights and I do reps to build that muscle, I just gave my kid a rep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:56.066)
Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ that's right. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:10.830)
Yep.

Tina Bryson (29:21.776)
of going from a dysregulated, disintegrated brain state into a regulated, integrated state. And if I continue to help him do that, particularly in the early years, but even our 19 and 25 year olds need it and our spouses need it, this is how the brain works. If I continue to provide those reps ⁓ through co-regulation, through me showing up in that moment with regulated connection and repairing when I don't.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:33.664)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (29:49.318)
then my child's brain is wiring for how to do it for himself. So it is not about being indulgent about behavior. ⁓ I am firm, I have limits, I have boundaries, and we will talk about that behavior later when he's more regulated, maybe even the next day. So it's all about ⁓ being intentional, ⁓ knowing that the repeated experiences, ⁓ again, are not just changing the behavior or the mind or their character. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:53.602)
Yep. Yes. Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:5.325)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (30:19.299)
It's changing how their brains are wired and who they become and how they handle their own dysregulation in the future.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:26.616)
Tina, that is awesome. And you can even go deeper, and I know you could, of just, there is that healing that also happens in us, that there is that little in us that throws tantrums just like that. And as we do that with our kid and help do those four things you just talked about, I actually start to do that and train my brain and body to do that with me. ⁓

Tina Bryson (30:35.942)
Yes.

Tina Bryson (30:42.779)
Yes.

Tina Bryson (30:49.243)
You're getting reps. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:50.230)
Yeah, when I'm panicking and I'm freaking out and the world doesn't seem to be caring that I want to keep doing that fun thing, right? And it's like, then I can actually soothe that within myself. And I just think that's the power of that interpersonal neurobiology when you embrace it that your kids, they're not wanting you to be all unruffled. They're not wanting you to panic. They're actually wanting you to say, Hey, I can handle this with you. We can do this together. And then like what you said,

Tina Bryson (30:56.657)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (31:0.369)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (31:15.313)
Totally.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:17.570)
the behavior can be addressed later when they're actually in a receptive, teachable place and they actually are curious about how to do that better. Because in that moment, they don't, they're not thinking about how can I do this better, they're just thinking that you aren't letting me do what I want. So they're not in that place at all. So why not, if you're gonna take that time to have that conversation, do it in a place when they're receptive and open and teachable and actually curious about your ideas and how to do it differently.

Tina Bryson (31:30.917)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (31:39.557)
Yeah. ⁓ And the way we get them there in that moment is first through our own regulation. Then second to say, and if you can't in that moment, it's okay to say, Hey, I need to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back. As long as they're safe, go take a minute or to even like, sometimes I would say, I am so angry right now. ⁓ I need a break so I can handle this in a way that will feel good to both of us. Like I sometimes even said that out loud as my kids got older.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:51.554)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (32:6.578)
but I think it's first our regulation and then what we do is we join with them without becoming ⁓ absorbed, like without becoming completely like lost in their emotion. We join in that moment and it sometimes, it's not so much what we say or what we do, know, rarely prescriptive around those things. It's really about our presence and it's really about us showing up in that moment. And then there are all kinds of strategies that also help like name it to tame it from the whole brain child where

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:25.677)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:35.234)
Yeah, yeah, of course. ⁓ Yeah.

Tina Bryson (32:36.473)
We name what they're feeling. And ⁓ then sometimes we need more bottom-up strategies. And what I mean by that is body up. We need to slow down our breathing and then they start slowing down their breathing. Or we have them, let's say, let's go walk together. Or you start rolling a ball or tossing a ball and then they start moving a little bit. But the point in that moment ⁓ is your regulated presence.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:52.546)
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (32:59.907)
that will allow them to come back into their whole brain. ⁓ And ⁓ often it's ⁓ very much, it's very simple like, buddy, ⁓ you're so frustrated. It feels really unfair. Your brothers get to stay up and you don't. And I'm right here with you while you're feeling that. And ⁓ we're not staying up later, but I can still say, you know, and I'm just here and if you need to be upset, that's okay. I'm right here with you. And that is so powerful. Think about what that...

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:2.786)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:12.129)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓
Yeah. Yep.

Tina Bryson (33:25.573)
that does for them for their future spouses and their kinds of relationships that they build and ⁓ as bosses later, you I think it's just crucial.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:29.772)
Yep. ⁓ Or even with their siblings. That's the real benefit we've seen, Tina, is ⁓ the way in which the siblings do that same stuff with each other. Because that's not something I ever saw in my home. I never would have done that with my siblings. And for them to be compassionate and caring when the other one's upset, and they'll do some of these same kind of techniques because we've done it to them. And then they'll do it to each other. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (33:38.459)
Yeah. ⁓ Yep.

Tina Bryson (33:43.429)
No.

Tina Bryson (33:53.116)
Yeah, yeah, because ⁓ we know that the way children and adults learn is by practicing doing it ourselves. That's the number one way. And the second way is to what's modeled for us. So your kids are getting steeped in that over and over. And you're right, Kyle, that ⁓ as we do it with our children, we are actually better able to do it for ourselves and vice versa. So it's really, you can come at it either direction, because we're getting those reps.
And sometimes it feels really foreign to us. We may not have had parents who helped us ⁓ do any kind of meaning making around our own emotions ⁓ or who could stay in calm presence when our emotions ⁓ were there. And so we were given lots of messaging about, go to your room and then once you're happy, you can come out or I don't wanna hear it, those kinds of things. So we then developed an intolerance for our own emotions and our children's emotions. And that's what this is about, is about recognizing too that
Negative uncomfortable emotions are part of the whole human experience. Like people are like, my God, my kid's anxious. And I'm like, well, good. That's a human emotion. Now, if it's too much, too long, it's interfering with daily life, then let's get some support. ⁓ But ⁓ my like my kid is dealing with some adversity right now. ⁓ Awesome. Like I hate it. It's painful for me as a mom, but as an interpersonal neurobiologist ⁓ and as his mom, ⁓ I'm thrilled that he's going through that because

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:53.708)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:58.734)
Yeah, yeah, course. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:8.962)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:14.371)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tina Bryson (35:18.309)
I'm gonna say something kind of like a formula here, which is ⁓ parents are really worried about resilience. ⁓ And we understand why. There's a lot in the world right now where we see a lot of fragility. The difference between resilience and fragility is not whether or not we have adversity. Like having adversity does not mean you're fragile. Having adversity does not necessarily mean you're gonna be resilient. It makes it more likely.
the difference between fragility and resilience is whether or not you have someone who connects with you, whether you have someone who shows up for you. it's like adversity minus showing up equals fragility. Adversity plus showing up equals resilience. ⁓ So it's really, we have to remember our job is, sometimes our job is to fix things for our kids, particularly when they're little, but really over the course of their childhood, really our job is to walk with them through it. ⁓ And that's

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:4.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (36:13.357)
serves us as they get older too, ⁓ to have that presence. And when we're not at our best selves, when we are a freaked out chicken or whatever, ⁓ then we just make the repair. And I am, I'm a freaked out chicken sometimes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:21.164)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To bring it full circle. ⁓ What? What? And that makes me think in that bathtub scenario, I liked your options. Mine would have been Sarah. Can you come in here? Like, I'm so sick of what's going ⁓ on. And then Sarah be like, we tag team. ⁓ I know I would tag team her and that I was telling that that was one of the biggest helps when I was trying to learn this stuff because it was completely foreign to how I was raised.

Tina Bryson (36:37.861)
Well, sometimes you gotta tap out. Sometimes you gotta tap out. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (36:49.317)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:49.716)
And when I was trying to learn this stuff, ⁓ Sarah had been doing it a lot more ⁓ with kids ⁓ that she was counseling. She had more practice. It came more natural to her in some cases. So for her to be able to come in and then I just high five her, go in there, watch her do it, help me regulate myself, then I could come back. And it was like, then success was, okay, instead of needing you to come in, I'm gonna handle this on my own and I've got this and.

Tina Bryson (37:1.265)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (37:10.961)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:16.654)
And so that was kind of the growth. so for a lot of parents listening to this, that's the power of doing like some parent coaching together with couples is then you're both on the same page and you both have the same vision of success. isn't just getting the kid out of the tub. It really is. There's a bigger picture of success. And, and, and so even though there might be some conflict in that moment, how did we handle that? How did we handle that within ourselves? And did we come back and repair if we blew up in that moment? That is what success is. And so just kind of

Tina Bryson (37:33.927)
Absolutely.

Tina Bryson (37:42.555)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:46.082)
helps them be able to articulate that better. ⁓

Tina Bryson (37:49.137)
I've never met with a couple, ⁓ I mean, with co-parents, whether they were married or not. I've never met with one where they were really actually on the same page. ⁓ I think we just wanna be in the same chapter or book if we can. And it's actually good for kids that parents are different in ⁓ certain ways because they have to use their prefrontal cortex to be like, hey, which one of them is more likely to say yes to this request? Like that's good prefrontal work. ⁓ But ⁓ what I would say is that, yeah, we need to tap out, like, especially if we're getting dysregulated. You my husband and I have this kind of like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:53.390)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:0.236)
Yes, yes, ⁓ 100%.

Tina Bryson (38:18.784)
know, signals to be like, you better come do this before I scream. ⁓ But I think, you know, what you're saying is so, so important because ⁓ we really can, ⁓ when I talk to parents, I'm like, okay, well, tell me about your discipline philosophy. Like, what's your approach? What are you aiming for? And they're always like, and really everybody's answer is what I call the fly by the seat of the pants method, which is.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:21.634)
Yes. ⁓

Tina Bryson (38:42.072)
I discipline in response to my own internal state at that moment, right? And that's what we all do. That's our first instinct. And our first instincts are usually not always the best when we're upset. ⁓ So I think it's so helpful. I will give you this, Kyle, in those moments as a clinician, ⁓ as a wife, ⁓ as a parent, ⁓ I will say that the Power Showing Up book, what I just talked about, the four S's, it is my North Star.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:50.414)
⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:5.730)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I love those. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (39:10.692)
because there are so many moments, whether it's the bathtub moment, or I just found out my kid as a teenager just took a really risky behavior, just did a really risky behavior that was totally against the rules. So we're talking about like toddler tantrums, teenage scary behaviors, and anything in between. In that moment, often am like, what do I do? Like, what do I say? What do I do? What's my response? And I have lots of tricks and ⁓ tips, including asking the child to be like, you know what?

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:19.618)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Tina Bryson (39:40.172)
you be the parent, you just give me the lecture, what would I say? Because then they don't tune you out and then they say, and everything they say, you're like, my God, they have been listening. And then they hear themselves say it. I mean, it is a really good, really good technique. ⁓ But in that moment, I'm always like, okay, what is my North Star? Because oftentimes I'm not sure. ⁓ So let me say ⁓ the 80 years of cross-cultural research that we talk about in The ⁓ Power Showing Up is this.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:41.388)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓
Right. Yeah. I like that. Yeah.

Tina Bryson (40:7.387)
The greatest predictor for how well our kids turn out is that they have what's called secure attachment with at least one person. ⁓ What gets them to, what allows them to have secure attachment with us? Practicing the four S's, not perfectly. And guess what? The whole bring safe, seen, so that's tuning into their experience, soothed, I'm here for you, comfort, support, know, co-regulation.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:21.154)
Give me the four S's again. Give me the four S's again.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:27.778)
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (40:33.732)
And then the fourth is secure and knowing you're gonna keep showing up even at their worst. And at their worst is when they need us the most. And that's usually when we get the most reactive and we do these things. So whatever the moment is, before I respond, I do a North Star compass exercise where I basically am like, if I can respond in a way that helps this kid feel safe and seen and soothed and secure and knowing I'm gonna keep showing up.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:44.024)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (40:59.202)
even while I'm gonna hold boundaries or we're gonna have a conversation about you just showed me that you're not ready for that responsibility or that freedom. So the rains are coming in until you're ready for that. ⁓ So it's not about permissive, but in that moment, can I help them feel safe and seen and soothed and secure knowing they cannot lose my love? I'm gonna keep showing up for them. I'm gonna do one more rep of that prediction model in the brain for them to know ⁓ she's gonna keep showing up for me even at my worst.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:8.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tina Bryson (41:24.612)
That is always the right answer. It is always the right response because it builds relationship and trust. It regulates the brain and the nervous system. It builds the brain over time too, because we know that the functions of the prefrontal cortex that are the foundation for mental health, for social and emotional intelligence, for success in career and academics, all of the outcomes we want for our kids ⁓ are, a lot of them are prefrontal. What do we know?

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:50.531)
Yeah.

Tina Bryson (41:52.527)
If you look at a list of what the prefrontal cortex does, which is the part of our brain that helps us be most integrated. If you look at the list of what that part of the brain does, ⁓ everything on it, ⁓ except for intuition and morality that have not yet been studied, and I'm sure they're gonna be added to the list when someone studies it. ⁓ All of those are outcomes of secure attachment. What that tells me is that when we show up and help kids know that we're gonna keep showing up for them, when we show up in that way, not perfectly,

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:57.644)
Yeah, yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:7.736)
Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (42:19.630)
It builds the prefrontal cortex. We are building the brain. So it's always the right answer. And it's really effective. It usually down regulates reactivity in both kids and us. It's ⁓ such a helpful North star.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:30.742)
That's so powerful. That's so great. I love it. yeah, yeah. I'm sure our audience is eating that. That's so good. I love the four S's. I was actually thinking I need to remember those because I know we read it in the power of showing up. But I didn't have those there. But I love that as like that lighthouse that North Star kind of thing. Just go back to those four again. Yeah. ⁓

Tina Bryson (42:38.438)
Hahaha. ⁓

Tina Bryson (42:51.684)
And don't forget, we have refrigerator sheets with each of the books. So if you just go to my website, tinabrison.com, you can get it. You don't even have to buy the book. ⁓ And I've done tons and tons of podcasts going deeper into that and the different patterns of attachment, all of that too. But that book is, ⁓ I don't have a favorite, but I do love that one. ⁓ And we didn't even get to talk about the way of play either, which is my newer one, ⁓ which is really about how to use play to help integrate the brain. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:54.518)
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. Yes! Okay. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:9.964)
Yeah, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:14.666)
Yes. But, but yeah, yeah. And we did an interview about that back in February. So if anybody listening that wants to know more about that, go back to the February episodes with Georgie and we interviewed her about the way of play because it's fantastic. ⁓ Yeah. love that book. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great book. Yeah. Well, we want to thank you so much, Tina, for giving us all this insight, taking the time with our audience. know.

Tina Bryson (43:22.437)
okay, great.

Tina Bryson (43:28.496)
Great, great. Thank you for reminding me. She's wonderful. Yeah.
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:40.486)
You are definitely, you have a huge busy schedule, a lot of speaking to do, and we feel honored that you take the time to talk to us. ⁓ so, yeah. And so the best place, the best place where they can find you is on your website. Is there any other place that they, we can point them to? Okay. Okay.

Tina Bryson (43:46.510)
I'm so honored to get to talk to you. Thank you for your work.

Tina Bryson (43:54.328)
Yeah, I'm all over social, I'm not on TikTok, but I am on ⁓ the place ⁓ I interact with people the most in DMs and the place I post the most is on Instagram and my handle there is Tina Payne Bryson. And my center is, my interdisciplinary clinical center in Santa Barbara, Pasadena and Duarte, California, all Southern California for now, ⁓ is thecenterforconnection.org and it's an interdisciplinary clinical team, but we also have resources and blogs and other things on there as well.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:6.190)
Okay, okay, so everybody get on there. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:11.682)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:22.380)
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for the work you're doing there. And hopefully it will continue to spread throughout the United States. So, so once again, thank you for taking the time. We appreciate you being on ⁓ and yeah, thank you for coming.

Tina Bryson (44:29.040)
Thank you.

Tina Bryson (44:34.065)
Thanks so much for you guys.