Episode 149

Do you remember a time as a parent when you played outside, right? Where you weren't as a little kid on screens all the time. You actually explored your world. You went around and ran around the neighborhood with your friends. And do you sometimes grieve that, kind of loss of how kids are just seemingly always inside and they're always on screens more. Definitely even the stats show they would prefer a screen over that play many times.

But there is a way to change that in your family. There is a way to help guide them towards something healthier. And that's why we wanted to bring on our guest today, Dr. Anthony deBenedit, author of several books on rough housing and play with your kids and how to, in those early years, start helping them be more apt to choose that type of play rather than just leaning towards screens, which is all too often what kids are doing.

So he is the author of several great books. One of them that we love, Art of Rough Housing. Another one that just dropped a couple years ago called Unplug and Play. And so I encourage you, if you're struggling, if your kids are on screens too much and you're saying, please give me some tools to help my kid do this differently, he's not only gonna show you ways to do that, but also give you the in-depth science of what's actually happening when you are rough housing with your kids.

when you are spending time wrestling with them and getting on the ground with them, that you're actually wiring their brain to be a healthier human. So take a moment today to really get ready to dive into the joy that can come from rough housing with your kids. Now, if you haven't already, please take a moment. It's so helpful to rate, review the podcast, leave a comment about how this is helping you share this with other families who you know could benefit from this information. Sarah and I, we just so badly want to help.

Families have closer more connected healthy relationships with their kids. So I hope you enjoy this episo

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, something that we've always been pretty passionate about, and we just recently did a podcast on connection and how important connecting with your kids is. And a big part of connecting we hear a lot is through play and through just getting on the ground, doing things with your kiddos. Yeah, that's very important to us. But something that I think a lot of people have heard about but kind of miss the power of it is rough housing in particular.

You know, and I think early on when we, when I was learning to be a dad, that was the part I was the most excited about. Like I struggled with getting on the ground and just playing, but throwing them around was actually pretty fun. Right. But did you know there's science behind that? And so that's why listeners, we wanted to introduce you today to Dr. Anthony and he is an expert in the field of many things.

But particularly what he's been writing about is about the power of rough housing with your kids And he's gonna hit on a lot of different topics playful intelligence is something you know so we're gonna hit so We don't waste any time on this so hello, dr. Anthony and welcome to our podcast

Yeah.

Hi, Kyle. Hi, Sarah. Thank you guys so much for having me. It's a thrill to be here. I just I love the concept of the art of raising humans. You the book with like you mentioned, the art of roughhousing. I love the idea of the art of raising humans because in, you know, in the end, that's what we're really trying to do. That's our most important job as human beings is to help kids kind of make it through this trek of life that we're trying to make sense of and enjoy. Yeah.

Well, that's why we love that name. And of course, we're also drawn to your book in that sense is I love this creativity of parenting, that parenting you can talk about techniques. And yes, there are some techniques that are better than others, but inevitably it is about helping a parent be secure and confident in their connection with their kids. So then they can be creative.

Yeah.

and how they do all that, how they handle situations, right? And there is an art form with each family. So I wanted to hear, how did you get passionate about rough housing? Because I assume, I mean, that's what your expertise is in, right? I mean, you're like, you've got a doctorate in rough housing, is that what it is?

Yeah. So I'm actually a practicing physician, the roughhousing thing, I kind of stumbled upon. We had two kids at the time. This was early on in my training. my oldest, Ava, was going through this really, really intense kind of mommy-only stage where

Yes, been there, been there. Yep.

Yeah, where essentially I would come home from work and try to connect with her and she would like look at me and then just kind of run away screaming. Great to be home. And so I kind of and everything I mean it was bad. I couldn't do bath time. I couldn't do bedtime. I you know even at the dinner table is kind of like I was just this band and shun pair which is.

Yeah. Yes, I know. I'm so glad. Should I go back to work? I should go back to work. Yeah. Yeah.

you know, later to find it's very normal thing for kids to go through. But I was, I was like, I need to hit the science, I need to figure this out as to how I can kind of best connect with her. And so I, I started just kind of reading about play and because I remember my, my dad, and even my mom used to play kind of physically with me, whether it was just when I was young and wrestling and rolling around and doing fun activities, or even as I got older in sports and whatnot. But so I

Yes, yes.

started looking at lot of just kind of play research, like hardcore foundational play science and research, which was, a lot of this was done actually in the Midwest and the University of Wisconsin and Minnesota in like the 1970s and 80s. And these are, it's really fun research to look at if any of your listeners ever, these are people that go to play, this is.

going to sound a little bit sketchy, but they can go to playgrounds and they basically observe kids playing and how are kids playing? I tell the school first, but like back then it was like, okay, you know, I'm just going to go observe some park, you know, some parks or some playgrounds. And so what was interesting, there's a lot of different kinds of play, but what I was finding and reading was that rough and tumble play, which is kind of the scientific term for rough housing, really had.

Yeah, yeah. That's right, yes.

At least what I was seeing really had a kind of a good bang for its buck, so to speak. that there were a lot of things, like there's the, like you said, Kyle, there's no perfect magic bullet when it comes to parenting. You gotta have a lot of different tools in your toolbox. But as I was reading about rough and tumble play, was like, oh, this is kind of, this looks pretty good. Like, okay, it helps with your connection, helps with emotional intelligence for the child. helps.

Mmm, yeah.

with even intelligent, know, all these things are kind of popping up. I'm like, okay, well, um, I guess I'll try some of this. so I, one night I came home and, um, Ava was doing kind of Ava's my old daughter. now in college. It's crazy to think about that, but she, um, she, uh, kind of ran away, did kind of her typical thing. And then after dinner, I said, Ava, how, would you like to kind of come with me, um, to the world of flying machines? And she's like three years old.

Wow.

He's like, dad, I don't know what that means. I said, why don't you jump on my back? And so she jumped on my back and we kind of raced up the stairs in our apartment condo and got her into it. And she was laughing. I'm like making these kind of rocket ship noises. Like I'm pretending like I'm this rocket ship. And she and I kind of drop her off into her room. And then she looked at me and she's like, she's like, she's like daddy or she's like mommy.

Yes.

Mommy do bedtime. And I was just like, oh, man, I was like so dejected. And I walked out and as I was walking out, she's like, but let's do that again. Like tomorrow, you know, let's do it again. And so then the next couple of nights, we just kind of, I was like a hot air balloon one night. I'm like a jet plane the other night, you know, and she just started to kind of really like the ritual of that.

Mmm, yeah, yeah.

You

Yeah.

And that kind of physicalness and me kind of bouncing as we walked up the stairs and then having kind of crash landings and stuff is what started us on a better road to connection. And that was basically that after that week, I then called Larry, Dr. Cohen, you guys have had on for playful parenting out of the blue, I cold called him because I had also looked at playful parenting and there was one chapter and he was like 11 pages.

Yeah, yep, yep.

that Larry had written on roughhousing. said, Larry, I'm Anthony, you don't know anything about me. But I'm a dad and I'm a doc and I'm just trying to figure stuff out. And I think that we could do a whole book on this. And he and that was how the art of roughhousing was born. That's the story. Yeah.

Hahaha

Yeah. That is awesome. What a cool partnership. Well, you know, I resonate so much with your story because it sounds like we both have pretty awesome wives who our kids like, like want to be with them. And so there was this frustration of coming home. And I remember acting like such a child where I would come home and I'd say to our oldest, who's now 15, I'd say to her,

Yes.

but hey, can I put you to bed tonight? Cause I'm home early tonight. And she said, yeah, dad, want you to put me to bed. And then as we started to go towards the bed, she'd say, um, no, I actually want mom. And then I would say, then I would do, I'd be like, you said you wanted me. And she said, no, I want mom now. Well, you know what you said me. And then, and then Sarah said, Kyle, she's just saying it's hard to transition to you. No, it's too late. She said she wanted you. like, no, no, no, I do want you dad. No, it's too late. And I was like, I knew in my mind like,

Right, like change your mind.

Right.

Yeah.

This isn't healthy. what is wrong with me? But I found myself becoming like a five year old kid saying, no, you rejected me. I'll reject you. And that's similar to you. was like, I've got to help her with this transition. I've got to help her in a different way. I can't just expect her to be like, mom's doing it most nights of the week. And then bam, you do it. She's just saying, mom knows my stuff. She knows how to help me relax. You just don't dad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. Right. Right.

And I love how you came to that same conclusion that the rough housing and the play was the way to help the kid switch their perception of that. And that it didn't have to be this like, no, you know, take care of my feelings because my feelings are hurt. So say you want me instead.

Right, I think that's exactly it. think that's honestly, if you even go to like 30,000 feet, that's kind of one of the hardest things in parenting, right? Like there's this kind of disconnect or disagreement or shunning by a parent and you kind of, your emotions start getting, you know, they start ramping up and they're kind of like, okay, no, this is how it should be. No, you know, you kind of dig in and then your your kid digs in and.

Yeah.

And it's kind of off to the races in terms of an argument or a meltdown or whatever it is. But I like how you said earlier, too, like the key is, trying to trying to stay creative and trying to think about, OK, what can I do here differently? And how can I creatively? It's not really some people associate sometimes creativity with distraction, like distracting the child into a different frame of mind. I don't really think of it that way. I think of it as more of a redirection.

Yes. Yep.

Distraction to me always has sound kind of like I'm trying to like trick my kid. It's much more of a redirection and see if we can find a different, know, see if we can get back on track basically on more of a connected track. But yeah.

Yeah. No, I think it's a really good point because lots of times when I've mentioned those kinds of things you're saying is then the parent will say, oh yeah, I do that. Then I just distract them. Like, no, you're actually trying to just find another pathway to connection. So it isn't like we're trying to avoid the moment or avoid the feeling. I'm just trying to say, hey, this way of connecting isn't working. Let's go a different path. Well, I did a lot of my background a lot is in play therapy and working with kids, little kids and

Right.

Exactly. I love that.

Right. Right.

Cool.

And to me, it's just tapping into their language of play. They do so much of their world is play. And when we join that world of play, it connects. They feel seen, they feel heard. feel, okay, now you're talking my language, you know, to tell me, Oh, dad's going to put me to bed. You know, I could just see for her how it threw her world upside down to say, I'm used to this routine with this person. We've been doing this for years and now you come in and how.

Yes.

Just that just mixed everything up for her. But when you come in with her language of play, you can see that switch where she goes, oh, okay, we can, can have fun with you. can connect with you. And it starts moving in the direction in a different direction. you had said real briefly, you had mentioned that you were seeing all these great things about rough housing. And I want to go back to that because you kind of touched on a couple, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about what, what are.

Right.

you

the benefits of this play of what we're, you know, you were touching on them, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about.

Sure.

Yeah. Yeah, and I there's, there's a lot of that I think of it in kind of three little basic buckets, but actually really to the first is kind of an intelligence bucket. And we'll dive into that a little bit. The second is more of a connection bucket. And the first bucket, the intelligence thing was interesting to me, because I was reading about this concept of brain derived neurotrophic factor, which is

neuroscience terms, it's kind of like fertilizer for neurons and developing neurons, especially in developing, you know, especially in young kids. And especially it's interesting the the that BDNF is kind of the acronym for it. roughhousing and kind of physical play that can kind of be feel a little risky to that is really, really a great stimulator of BDNF. And it just helps build

Oh wow.

kind of just different neural connections. that's really happening in a developing brain, as you guys probably know better than me, like ages of two to 12 is really where that's happening a lot. And peak ages for roughhousing is like basically two to 10, where the kids are really wanting that physical kind of connection with their parent or guardian, and kind of they're liking that kind of feeling. And that's really when...

Hmm

Okay.

BDNF is just kind of flowing. that's, so that's like, if you want to just, you know, stereotypical intelligence, that's what that is. That's what that's doing is neurons are being built and, you know, various things in the hippocampus, not to get too, too scientific or, you know, forming in terms of memory, make, you know, ability to remember things. I know, but the more interesting thing to me was the concept of the emotional intelligence piece.

And the idea of that with rough housing, rough housing, and Larry may have mentioned this too, because we really kind of geeked out on this natural arc thing. So the concept is, that rough housing, and most play, but especially rough housing, follows this kind of natural arc of starts off low intensity and then the energy level gets high to high intensity. And then there's a wind down period. And

It's interesting, boys can get onto that. I have three girls, but I'm a boy. I get, Boys can get on that arc real fast. And so their energy and their kind of just intensity of the play can get up to the top peak of the arc very, very fast. Girls sometimes take a little bit longer to warm up, but once they get to peak, they can be just as peak and just as

You can speak to that. Yeah.

know, bananas and just as fun and intense as boys can. But the key is that that wind down period is really, really critical. And that's where that emotional intelligence and kind of the dimmer switch that we all want as for our kids to have on their emotions, that it's not just like an on off switch, but it's, and we want it as an adult too. And we're constantly working on it all the time throughout our adult lives. Nobody ever told us that that we have to work on our emotions forever, but

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's what roughhousing is doing. You're going through this natural arc, including the wind down, and you're feeling what it feels like to feel really, really high intensity and then to come down on that emotion. So you're kind of building that dimmer switch as you're doing that natural arc of play with roughhousing. And that translates to the emotional intelligence. It's interesting though that we, as parents, I think this was probably one of the hardest things when we were...

Yep.

when it was digging into all the science on this is that we get scared. Teachers get scared too, like on the playground, when they see an energy getting really, really intense. And we get scared, we get scared because we care. So that's, you know, we care, we don't want anybody to get injured. We don't want tears, want everybody to have a good time, but we get scared and that fear sometimes causes us to stop the energy or stop the play at peak energy. So like you're, you know, like,

Yep. Yep.

Classic example is, you know, a parent just, you know, really revving things up before bedtime. And then basically saying, okay, now we have to go to bed. And the kid's like, what, wait, whoa, what do mean? I think I'm like bonkers right now. What do you mean we have to stop immediately? And when you stop the action, the children just don't know what to do with all that energy and all that emotion.

Yes.

Yeah, yep.

And so that's what we talk about in all of our workshops, Larry and I, when we're doing them together or doing them separately is to really, really honor that kind of wind down period, because that's the key for the emotional intelligence.

Yeah.

You know, there's so many moms who say what you said, Dr. Anthony, where they're like, my husband's doing what you're saying, Kyle, he's doing more rough housing, but it just seems like he's doing it right before bed. And then now they can't go to sleep. You know? And so there is that misunderstanding. They think it's just that. I remember even before knowing this, something that I guess just happened through our conversations and just maybe through our experience working with kids was we homeschool our kids. So we've got three. And I remember there was a time when our two oldest were younger.

Right, exactly, exactly.

Nice. Yeah.

And it was hard to transition from waking up, eating breakfast, hanging out with mom and dad, maybe doing some play on the ground. And then let's time for school. And they just, there was some grumbling and complaining and that was kind of triggering me where I'm like, I wanted them to love school. I wanted them to be like, yay, let's transition to school. And they're like, and like, but I, and I started thinking, wait, wait, wait, I if I'm curious here, I think it's cause they're just anxious about moving away from that. what I did,

Right.

Woo!

Exactly.

is I had a song from this Tron movie and it was like a three and a half minute song that was really, really intense. And I told the kids, here's how we're going to start the morning. When it's time to transition, I'm going to turn that song on and this is going to be loud. And there's a lot of drums and you two are going to team up and see if you can take me down. And so you're going to run at me and I'm throwing them, but once we're done, when that song's over, we're turning it off and we're going to lay on our backs and we're to take some deep breaths and we're going to control our body.

Nice.

love it. I love it. Yeah. Yup.

and we're going to get ready for school. Yeah. And so that that's something I've told parents a lot about that example, because that was like magic. I mean, the kids loved it. And I did they tell them, what if the kids want more? Oh, the kids always wanted more. But that's when I would say that, hey, here's what we're doing. We're not going to keep asking more. We're just doing it one time and then we're trans. So I'd have them repeat that back. And then pretty soon they bought into that routine. And it was just so fun. I mean, typically I was so sweaty after three minutes. But but you just saw them.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

ready. It was like they were so thankful that I helped them move through the anxiety of that transition to start school.

I love that idea of the song, I love that. Because what you're doing is actually the wind down. You're on the bottom part of the arc, and so you're winding down with the trot, I love that. It's a cool concept.

Yep. Yep, yep.

What else can it look like to help them if we think, okay, we're going to rough house, but what can it look like to think of how do I, how do I do that?

Yeah.

Right. I think the two best things that we that I think are most useful is one, just a freeze and then a restart. like you have like this silly code word in my house was banana cream pie. anytime anybody would say banana cream pie that the action would freeze and you just have to kind of stay motion like statue. And then you say it again and then

you keep going and then you freeze again. So that's naturally slowing things down just by freezing. Cause then it's, their whole, their physiology basically is slowing down. And the other one, um, they often tell folks too is slow mo speaking of slowing down is you just start doing the entire activity, whatever it is, the crab crawl or the bear race or whatever, whatever game you're doing, or even the pillow fight.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, yep.

and everything just becomes in super slow, you know, kind of matrix motion. And kids love that. And then you can actually, you can do the slow-mo and then you kind of go, okay, now we're gonna go fast, you know, fast forward. And then they're kind of going crazy again. And then, okay, now we're gonna go slow-mo. And then you just increase the frequency of either the freezes or the slow-mo. And that helps get you down in the arc. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, that's almost like a red light green light type idea too, right? Yeah. But it's funny how teachers will do that or they'll do that in gym and they don't know that there's good science behind this, that that red light green light is them having to burst and then stop and slow. And like, it's this so cool way of helping them learn how to regulate all that energy. But I also love what you said, because I definitely experienced too, where you see the kids energy ramping up and you want to stop that instead of guide it.

Same concept. Yes, very similar concept. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Right? Right.

And I think that's where a lot of parents, they don't feel confident that they know how to do that because many times it's gone sideways. Like they have tried to just let it go. And what it looks like is they're more being permissive. They're just like, oh, we'll just see where this goes. And then the kids are out of control and then they're hurting each other or they get hurt. Right? So it feels like the only way to keep them safe is to keep them from ever reaching that point. know? And so I hope listeners really caught onto that, that importance of

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

man, when they're at school all day, I was a school counselor. did that for seven years. And yet you see teachers, they're like, Hey, we need to nip that in the bud. Like you need to see that. And like, and what I was able to do as elementary school counselor was I was out with the kids playing with them at recess. So I was able to see that and guide some of it. But most of the kids don't have any kind of mentoring like that, you know, and it is constantly there. They are taught to be afraid of their emotions and their energy getting bigger.

Exactly.

Right.

And so they learn to try to stuff that or keep it down or not feel safe feeling big things.

Right, right. No, you're exactly. It's so interesting. have such a soft spot in my heart for school counselors and it's so cool that my wife was a school counselor too. She was doing that too. She did elementary and middle school when we lived in Virginia. I think it's, not it, this is not any kind of a slam on teachers because I have a huge soft spot for teachers too, but teachers just like parents can't really recognize the energy level very well. Like you were saying, you know, it's hard to recognize. so,

It's funny, the research is so funny. You'll see like, oh, you know, these two kids were on the playground and they were absolutely fighting about to kill each other. And so we stopped and we sent them to the principal. And then two kids are like, no, we weren't even close. And these are like fourth graders, These are like third grade. Like they're not gonna lie, right? Like we weren't even close. We were just having fun. We love each other. We're best friends. And everybody's like, oh, okay. We thought you were like really, you know, we're just not good at.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or being hyper sensitive and scared of it. Yeah. Like, immediately or or like you said, that lack of awareness will cause parents to go my kid just goes zero to 10. And like, well, no, he does like there is a build up. So part of that is helping them, I think through rough housing. What I love it when moms and dads embrace that is like, then they get a better sense of watching it in that because you can start to see when the rough housing is kind of tipping a point.

identifying it. But yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly.

Yes, yes, no, right. Yep.

Yeah.

Yes. Into aggression or violence, you don't want that. right, right.

to where, okay, now we're just mad. Yeah, now the kids, and I'll tell them like, but that's great that they're doing that with you because then you can say, hey, let's implement something like yellow light. When I see that yellow light means caution. Let's be, you know, and red light means we're stopping. And many times my kids needed to do that for me, not because I was being aggressive, but because I just didn't know what was gonna hurt them. So I just was like.

Right.

Right. Yeah.

Yep.

Yes.

I was just throwing my son and he'd be like, dad, this is like, you just heard me. I've been, why are you crying? Like I barely even threw you, you know? And so I think sometimes a parent needs to know their own strength and know their own power. And that's like, that's, think it keeps you from getting in power struggles because then you start to realize my power isn't to dominate you or oppose you. It is actually to help you. And in the rough housing, that's what we're doing. We're all playing together, you know?

Yes, yes, yes, right.

Totally. Totally.

Right.

Yeah. And that's a perfect, that's a perfect segue to the other piece of the intelligence, which is social intelligence, right? Like the idea that the parents holding back their power and showing how to do that in order for the play to continue. And you translate that to real life, right? Like we can't always all be leaders or always all be followers at the same time. We have to be able to work in teams where you have to be able to sit back and give and take. has to be that way. It can't be a dominant.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

kind of a thing all the time in all of our teams, in all of our social circles, in all of our friendships. It just can't be that way. It doesn't work that way. Human connection doesn't work that way. But yeah, no, think the Latin, Sarah, to get back to your question, the last thing is just that idea of that last bucket is connection. And we know that when roughhousing is going on, oxytocin is getting released, which of course is that famous cuddle chemical. A lot of research has been done on that. And really what that's saying is,

Yeah.

You know, it's kind of like the biological basis of empathy is oxytocin, that hormone in that you're really saying to somebody, you know, I am here with you. You know, we are, this is a safe space for us to play, to talk, to whatever. And, and, you know, there's no judgment here. We're here to connect. And I think that that, that was really kind of, as I'm reading about this, that's kind of triggered the call to Larry, like, okay, we've got to write a book about this. Like this is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

good stuff. But no, I think too, like the other thing we, know, boys and back to the boys and girls thing, because both boys and girls and moms and dads can roughhouse. I think that the stereotype is always, oh, that's a boys and dads thing. But it really isn't. It's really for everybody. I mean, the other thing too, that it's great about and this is this might be this might come across as broad sweeping, but the you know, there's like there's like

Yeah. Yeah.

one important thing that we really want to make sure our boys know before they leave the house. And there's one important thing that we really want our girls to know before they leave the house. And here's the drum roll. For boys, it's like, we really want them to know that there's more to physical contact than sex and violence, period. Period. That's what we want them to know when they leave your house, when they go out into the world. And for women, we want them to know that a woman's voice is the strongest thing on this planet.

Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

It's the strongest thing on the on the planet. And, you know, in finding that voice and developing that voice. And I think in rough housing is great for those things, because it's often a lot of kind of body language and nonverbal kind of stuff and in that. But it's also at the same time, it's also verbal, like, oh, that didn't feel right or that, you know, fell out of control or that hurt or whatever. It's also all of that. And then, of course, it's also teaching.

Yeah.

healthy physical contact. You know, then it's okay to high five somebody or, you know, reach out for a handshake or, you know, pat on the back. My kids always ride me about the hug stuff because I'm a hugger. They're always like, dad, you got to ask before you hug. I'm like, all right, I'm asking before I hug. But I'm still like, I'm still going to be a hugger guys. I mean, that's just me. Okay.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Well, I love how your new book that you have coming out, right there just dropped, guess came out in 2023. It's 2025. So I keep forgetting that, but unplug and play is the title. And I want to hear a little bit more about that and about obviously every parent listening is like, how do I, how do I convince my kid to get off the video games or

But anyway.

Yeah, I know it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

to shift away, but I'm sure that's kind of part of the theme of it. So could you share a little bit about the heart of that and what you're wanting to.

Yeah, what triggered kind of the title and kind of the reboot from our publisher and then also in Larry in our minds was that there's a lot of data, early data when kind of video, was partially in the 80s but also 90s when kind of computers and computer games became popular and now of course 2000s where you can get any kind of game anywhere on any device but.

A lot of the data was showing that if you give a child an elementary, so this is basically third graders, second graders. If you give them the choice between a screen related activity and a play related activity. So anything like let's go outside and you know, run around in the creek or whatever it is, or go out in the woods or just run around on the street. They will choose the screen related activity over 90 % of it.

Yeah.

So like, it's, know, screens are here to stay, right? But it's, it's kind of gets back to that creative, like how do we creatively redirect or how do we creatively kind of get kids thinking about getting off the screens, right? And that's really was kind of the, you know, how does rough and rough and tumble play or rough housing kind of interface with that or how can it help with that?

And I think that that was unplugged, that's unplugged in place. So it's kind of a reboot of Art of Roughhousing, but it's got a lot of new, some kind of screen related science and some new activities and stuff. really what we found was that it's not about necessarily banishing screens, right? It's about, it's really about two things. One is you as a parent modeling your own screen behavior, that's like super critical.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep, huge.

So like if you're always on your phone and you're, you know, and how can you tell your kid to not be on their phone or not be on their iPad? That's the first and foremost thing. And then the second thing is, that it's okay to actually participate with your kid and video games are a way to connect. You know, that's crazy as it sounds. Or even like, you know, TikTok or whatever, whatever social media it is, you know, it.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

try to connect on that, try to connect with them on that. And they'll think you're funny and weird and like, oh, dad, know, bro, you know, they're all like saying bro. And you're like, okay, you know, like, you're totally an idiot. But that's, that's kind of part of your game as a parent, that's part of your game. And when they were young, you might have just fallen over and they would laugh and then you'd fall over again and they would laugh again. And now it's kind of like you're the bumbling person who doesn't understand tech.

you

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and I, that is like true story for me. So it's easy to play that part, but, but like, that's, that's kind of what it is. And then once you start doing that, and once you start looking at it as not, and this isn't like, I'm, you know, painting kind of a utopian picture here. It's not to say that we don't need to have rules. Like, yes, there needs to be some screen rules, like, and there needs to be like limits. Like I'm not saying don't have those things too, but.

A life story if you need it.

Yeah, sure.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that if kind of the fever inside, the fire inside your belly is to always put connection as number one, then you just need to kind of get over the fact that yes, these are bad things. Like phones are bad for kids. We know that, they are bad. But they're also not going away. Like as adults, it's not like we're all gonna drop our phones. Like we're gonna keep using them. So we have to kind of work with it and be creative.

Yeah.

But that's how the rough housing piece and activities and physical challenges and all that kind of stuff. That's unplug and play. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so exciting. Our culture needs that. Okay. So quick question. You know, it's easy to, I think it's easier to think about this for little kids. Does this apply to the tween teen group? Oh, and can you just speak to maybe just a little bit of how it does.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Yes, so the biggest thing so that I will say that once you get to kind of 14, 15, 16, even a little younger than that sometimes is it changes from kind of the heavy wrestling. And I don't know if I got cut off there. Maybe it did end a little bit. It changes from.

kind of the heavy wrestling and into more of a physical challenge type of a situation. Oh, you guys are there. Okay, great. Cool. For some reason, my screen just went blank. Speaking of bad tech, that's the tech karma. So, sorry, I'll restate that. But basically the idea being that as kids get older, you wanna think about more

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're good. Oh, isn't that fun? Look at that. Surprised. Yeah.

Like, okay, what's the physical challenge that we can do while we're just taking a walk or while we're out for dinner? You know, oh, can we balance on this little parking B concrete structure? And for me, this is gonna sound wild, but like for me, when I was 12 and 13, I was jumping off my garage roof, you know, and like trying to land appropriately and with my dad and it was like, oh my gosh. And so I'm not recommending that, although that is in the book, how to do that safely.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh my gosh, yes.

Can I like turn up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah.

But it becomes, yeah, it becomes less of kind of like the pillow fighting and the wrestling and kind of that you remember the steamroller or the piggyback rides, all that kind of stuff that you remember when they were young. It becomes kind of more of these physical challenges or even just kind of sports aren't necessarily roughhousing, but also just playing in a physical way with your kids or getting out there. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or doing TikTok dances, right? Or even, mean, something we love to do is hike with our kids. And my brother and I have both gone and done 14 years, you 14,000 foot peaks with our kids. And so, man, it was such a cool moment when my son was nine, my daughter was 12, and we did our first 14 year. And just that you could see this, like one, a connection between us, but also this confidence in them.

That's right. That's exactly exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, wow, nice. Oh, cool.

Yeah.

of just realizing the power they had that they could overcome this peak. And so it's kind of a similar thing. It reminded me a lot of wrestling with them with the music, but instead we're walking together up a giant mountain. And it's a similar thing. our power is together, but the power now looks like we're encouraging each other. We're helping carry each other's backpacks or things like that to help each other. And so we're working together towards that. So Dr. Anthony, this subject is so fun.

So cool.

Yes, yes. Yep. Yep.

Love it.

Yeah, know. want to ask someone because I want to ask about adults playing. want to do like all this because because I just think it's so pivotal to helping us realize what it means to be human. And even man like your subtitle of your play, the one book you have is about not taking the world so serious and like, oh my gosh, like I wanted to like, we take the world way too serious. And we're not willing to play enough.

No.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, or as when we're adults, it looks like play is just, you know, drinking alcohol a lot or something like that. It's not really like actually just playing and being childlike, but there's something so freeing. And I want to hope every listener hears this, that just when you do this with your kids, allow yourself to feel that freedom to tap into that kid within you that really your kid wants to see that kid. Your kid wants to play with that kid in you because it feels like I'm not alone. You know, like you understand what it's like to be a child.

Right, right.

and you were once one instead of you always being the serious one. So yeah, so we love it. wanna ask you any last, anybody who's struggling with this and like rough housing's hard for me or I wanna know any last words of encouragement that you could give parents about making this a bigger part of their journey.

100%.

Yeah, the biggest thing is you're not alone. It can feel awkward, it can feel silly, and just go slow. Go slow and do little things here and there, small little kind of baby steps getting back into kind of, even your body might feel weird and like, oh, I didn't know my back felt that way when I moved that way. And just give yourself a lot of grace. But it's worth it. I think it really is. Again, no magic.

kind of, you know, perfect solution for parenting, but it's a it's a good one to have in your quiver, so to speak. Yeah.

Yes, yeah. And if they want to know more about your work, where can they find you? If you could point them to...

Yeah, so X is probably the best spot. And it's atdebenedet, or at atdebenedet is Twitter X for me. There's also an Art Rough Housing Facebook page. We've been updating that a little bit, but we've got to get a little bit better at that. But that's probably the best spot to find me.

Okay.

Oh great.

Okay. And definitely go on Amazon, right? Or all those places you can buy books. I mean, you've got several really good books. And I we've not even read them. like, we got to get these now. We want to read the rest. Yes, man.

And Amazon, yep, for sure. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, let me know if you guys ever want it. Playful Intelligence was kind of my response to my own personal burnout as an adult. So I'm looking at play from an adult standpoint, just personally adult. yeah, it's a thing. Cool. No, cool.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes. Yeah. I'm excited about that one. When I saw that one, like, oh, this is on my list. Yeah. Well, you remember Dr. Anthony as we're wrapping up, I remember even in college where life could be kind of serious and you're making some big decisions. And I remember going to Barnes and Noble and as a kid, I loved comic books, but about 16, I thought I was too mature to read those anymore and it was too immature. And so at like 21,

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

I was sitting at Barnes and Noble, I'm like, I just want to read some comic books, man. And as I read it, I'm like, I like these, these are fun. And I like, why did I stop reading these? And it was almost like this freedom I felt to tap into that kid again. And it helped me make some of those bigger decisions.

Right. Exactly.

Right.

Right.

Right, no, that's exactly it, Kyle. It's really, to kind of paraphrase what you just said, it's kind of the notion of, it's not like we're saying, you know, take life less seriously. It's what we're really saying is just take yourself a little less seriously. Yeah. You bet, guys. Thank you for having me and sorry for all the trouble getting scheduled and thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you for your persistence and patience, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so good. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate all your insight. Oh, you're okay. yeah, so great. We definitely, I think every listener is going to feel very empowered to go home and just throw their kids around in a fun way, in a fun way. Like just do it in a fun way. Yeah. Yeah. Get that Tron song and just have a fun time today. So thank you so much. And we really appreciate it.

I love it.

I love it. You bet you guys. Have great days. Okay. Bye bye.