Episode 136

I think every parent listening to this podcast knows that play is such an important part of a kid's life and a kid's development. But if we're being honest, how many of us actually know how to do it? How many of us actually enjoy getting on the ground and playing with our little kids or even knowing what does it look like to play with a teenager? know, many times I know for me, play is about my agenda, about what I want to accomplish. But in the process of raising our kids,

 

I ran across somebody who changed my view of that. And that man is Dr. Larry Cohen, the author of several books on the subject of play, but specifically the book, Playful Parenting. And this book transformed how I do being a dad and being a father and dealing with my kids. And that man expanded my understanding about how play could be used to help with so many different things, from connection to anxiety to anger, to all these things. And so,

 

We really wanted to take a moment to interview him, introduce him to you so you have access to his wisdom. And hopefully we'll just transform the way you see play being done because it is easier said than done to actually spend intentional time playing with your kids. So before we dive in that interview, take a moment to please rate the podcast, give us a five-star review, leave us some comments, tell us how you play. Has play hard for you? Has play easy? Did you learn anything from what Dr. Cohen?

 

told you today in the podcast would love those feedbacks, love for you to email us to tell us that information. All those kinds of things are so helpful. So take a moment and get ready to learn how to play.

 

  

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sara. And today, Sara, we're gonna jump into what it means to be a playful parent. Yeah, I love this topic. You know, I know we've spent some time talking about play therapy. We've talked about the power of play. And so we thought let's get one of the fathers, the like creators, one of the people that inspired me to just really lean in to being a much more playful parent.

 

And so today we were so excited for all the listeners to get to meet Dr.   . So hello, Dr. Cohen.

 

    

Hi there, call me Larry. Great to see you.

 

  

Okay, nice. Okay, so hey, Larry, one of my first questions is, is how did you come up with this idea of play? Because it really was something groundbreaking for me. I obviously knew play was cool, kids like it. But the way you used the brain science, the way you tied it into this integral role in parenting, how did you come across that? What inspired you?

 

    

Well, I'm certainly glad I did. I started out as a very anxious dad. I was an anxious kid. I was an anxious young adult. I was an anxious new dad. don't remember when I first started saying, be careful, be careful, be careful. And, no, and I'm gonna drop you. you know, so.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

    

really it was looking around and watching others, watching how some other people were with my daughter when she was really little, watching other moms or dads with their kids, and seeing this playfulness. And it was a little foreign to me. And...

 

It seemed awkward, it seemed undignified, it seemed scary, it seemed weird. I didn't even understand, I think, all the reasons that I had to block against it. But instead of just completely turning away from it and saying, that's weird, I don't wanna do that, I'll just go to work. And I saw something there and I saw the power of connection that comes from play. And I saw that...

 

  

Yeah.

 

    

Connection is the heart. Connection is the foundation. We can connect with play. We can connect with tuning in, matching a child's emotion. We can connect with emotional understanding, letting them know we see how they feel, connect with listening. And I wanted that. And my relationship with my daughter was transformed.

 

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah, yeah.

 

    

through that, then know about...

 

How much later? 13 years later, I had a stepson in my life and went straight to play. It's like, I'm gonna sleep all because we didn't have those first 13 years. So we would wrestle, we would wrestle hard. And his mom would like have to leave the room because he was testing me out. And, but, know, he...

 

  

Hmm

 

Yes. Yes. Yes, that's right. Yes. Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

    

You know, he was 13, he had studied karate for 10 years, you know, he could have hurt me, but he never hurt me, but he brought it to the edge, you know, he kind of wanted to see it. It was a very different kind of play than I had ever seen with my daughter. I mean, we did a lot of wrestling and playing around, but not with that intensity. watching that and seeing that, it really kind of all came together in my head. And...

 

  

Yeah. wow. Yes. Yes.

 

    

I had spent the early part of my career working with adults, especially men who had been abused as children. And you can see there what was missing, what they didn't have growing up. You saw the lack of connection, you saw the lack of playfulness, you saw kind of the spark go out in people when children get abused. And you see how hard, was so admiring of...

 

  

Mmm.

 

Yeah.

 

    

the men and women that I worked with who lift that spark up in themselves again, and how hard it is and how much work. And so I thought, well, how can it really have an impact? And that is, you know, first starting younger. So it's like, okay, I'll work with the kids, not just with the adults. And then it's like, wait a minute, we got to go back a generation. I work with parents. And then I want to kind of...

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah, yep.

 

    

go back to the cemetery and work with all the grandparents and grandparents. Let's get multi-generational difficulties at the root. But we can't do that. But parenting is really where it's at, I think, to make the big changes that

 

Yes.

 

Yeah, man, yeah.

 

  

It even, seems like a no brainer that, you know, lot of parents we do coach and help and they'll say, yeah, play is important. You should play with your kids, but really what, what does it actually mean to play with your kid? You know? And when I look back, when a lot of the parents we work with look back, they don't remember a lot of time where a parent ever got on the ground and ever played with them. And I know even having, you know, we're both licensed counselors. And even though we have worked with kids for a long time as, as we had our own kids,

 

    

Yeah.

 

  

I remember there'd be a time when I would say to my son who's now 12, but he'd be three and I'd say, hey, I've got all this time. I'm give you 30 minutes, an hour. What do you wanna do with me? And I'd be like, okay, this is gonna be fun. Cause I'm thinking of all the things I wanna do with him. And then he would say, could we just play cars? And I'd be like, okay, that sounds like one good idea. Is there other ideas? go, I just really wanna play cars. And like, but I said, we have an hour. He's like, I know that would be great.

 

    

Yeah.

 

    

you

 

  

And then like I realized, and this is what I hope a lot of dads and parents here is I realized how, as I watched him play cars with me, I realized internally how much resistance I had to it. How I thought it looked like it looked like a waste of time. It looked like there's better things we could be doing. I mean, like I could feel myself getting sleepy, wanting to just go to sleep. then as I'm looking at him though, he looks like he's in heaven, but he looks like this is the best thing ever.

 

    

Yeah.

 

There's no other place he'd rather be. And that's where I started seeing the power of play in shaping myself is maybe the reason why I'm resisting this so much as a dad is because maybe my dad didn't get on the ground and do this with me. Maybe my dad had resistance to this as well, right? And maybe that's why I spent a lot of time playing by myself as a kid, you know? And, I don't want my kid to, I don't want to miss out on these moments. And so the real struggle I think is getting present.

 

seeing it as not just something to pass the time, but it's really key to a healthy relationship with your child.

 

    

Absolutely, so I raised my hand. It's like, yes, I would get sleepy playing Ariel, the Little Mermaid. It's so boring. And I finally realized, like, I'm not playing this because I like this game. I'm playing this because I like my daughter and I want to connect with her. And her doing her favorite thing is the best way to connect and to really tune in. And you're right, we have these blocks. some of it, if we think about our parents, some of it was survival mode.

 

  

Yes.

 

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

 

  

Yeah, yep, yep.

 

    

Right? Some of it was, you know, that's just not what kids, what grownups do. And it's, you know, there's a lot of reasons, but I think there's an overlooked reason that we resist play. And that is that when we play, we're in this flow state. You know, if we're just watching our kid play, we're like, I'm doing something else and that's cute. You know, or I'm going to take a picture of their being cute.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

    

We're not really in that flow state, but if we really get into either playing the cards or just I'm here with my son and it's so beautiful and he's so happy, we're in that flow state. And we make that sound like that's such a great thing, you know? The flow state of creativity or of play, of being in the woods. But it's not an easy place for a lot of people. It's, it's...

 

  

Yeah.

 

    

There's something, the way I think about it is the flow state opens the door a little bit to the unconscious. You know, which is why you get creativity in the flow state. It's why time disappears, which is another reason parents don't like play as much as kids do. But time disappears, you get into this creative zone. It's like dream, a dream state, a dream state that unconscious is open even more.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

That's right, that's right.

 

    

But a lot of us have some deep, dark, scary, unpleasant, unfaced, unfelt feelings, stuff back in our unconscious. Things we've forgotten, things we don't wanna think about. so playing, meditating, doing yoga, these are all things like, go do that, isn't that wonderful? But a lot of us...

 

  

Yeah.

 

    

When we go to do that, something rises up from inside and if we're not realizing what's going on, we're just like, I don't like this. I don't wanna do this. When I started meditating and doing yoga, I just sent all my clients to go do this. All my adult clients. And then, it's like, this is great. And then I had a few come back, it's like, this was awful. I started crying. And I was like, yeah, isn't that great? You started crying.

 

  

Yep.

 

  

Yes, yes.

 

  

That's right. Yes.

 

    

They're like, it was horrible. And so we need to be willing to look within and notice what comes up. Like you said, you're playing cars and you become aware of an obstacle in yourself and you're aware of the, there's so much to do and my to-do list is more important than wait a minute. My kid's having this great joy and we're together. Maybe that's more important.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

 

    

So we have to have a willingness to look within and look at that hard stuff. And also there's another thing that happened, which is that it's an example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That parents learned that children learn through play. This message came across to parents someday, one day. don't know when, 20 years ago, it's like.

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

  

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

    

Children learn to play, isn't this wonderful? And then parents thought now every play time has to be teaching time. I see kids, I see adults, know, the kids playing with the car. And what's the adults saying? How many wheels does the car have? What color is the car? Which car is bigger? This is an exam. This is not play anymore. You've lost that's important.

 

  

Yes, yes, so totally.

 

  

Mmm.

 

Yes. Yeah. Yep.

 

  

Yes. Yeah. Well, now we've made this time so productive.

 

    

It's so productive and children do not need this and children learning through play really means they play. They do real play. There's no need for teaching, but that doesn't mean they don't need us. They need us more. They need, know, when you were describing the time with the cars, it was the love, it was the enthusiasm, it was the time commitment. It was the, I'm here to do whatever you want to do.

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

  

Yes.

 

the energy and enthusiasm, that's what they need from us. They don't need it to be more school.

 

  

When I was working with little kids, that's when I really got to see the power of just entering into their world and playing with them. And I had definitely thought, well, if you're playing, this is a great time to rehearse colors, right? But then I learned more and more about just letting all of my agenda go.

 

    

Yeah.

 

    

Thank

 

  

Cause you do, have all those adults, I'll say adult messages of, let's make sure we can get a couple more things out of this play time than just play. You know, it's killed two birds with one stone. Yeah. Or, or you have your, why can't work on my grocery list while I'm playing, right? But working with parents and trying to let that go, I think it's really hard. I think sometimes as an adult where you've maybe you didn't even play much as a child because

 

    

Yeah, you're right.

 

  

I would run into parents all the time and say, I didn't even play. I don't know how to play. And so I think some of those, don't know how to play. what does it mean if I'm not doing these other things? What are you talking about where I just go and play with them? How do I do that?

 

    

Right and the great secret, it shouldn't be a secret but it's surprising secret is if you have a young child you live with a play expert. You don't need my book or anybody else's book. Well that's wrong, you gotta go buy my book. But you just have to buy it, you don't have to read it. But you live with a play expert and so just watch, watch and learn, do what they do.

 

Yes.

 

  

You

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

    

And there's a fine line between following and repeating what they do versus imitating and making fun of them. So as children get a little older, they're sensitive to, you're just mimicking me, you're making fun of me. So, but joining is not that. Joining is, it starts with babies where you just make the same face that they make and they go, ooh, and they notice that you're going, ooh, just like they did. And then they smile and you smile and they smile bigger.

 

    

And then that goes all the way up.

 

  

Yeah. And I love how you said they're the expert. Cause sometimes I think it can be as simple as when you really are at a loss, you can even ask them and they're full of ideas. Like, should I do? Who should I be? You know, and, they'll tell you, like, I want you to be an angry truck or, know, whatever. Yeah.

 

    

Right, right.

 

Right, right. So parents will say, I can't think of a game. It's like you, that's not, you don't have to think of a game.

 

  

I think lots of times when I would say that it'd be like, can't think of a game that I'm going to like, and they're going to like, it's like, that's really what it is. And like, because I think whatever they're going to ask me to do is going to be so, it's going to be so mind numbingly boring or whatever. But it's really that resistance to letting go of all the pressure, the stress, the agenda, all the things I think need to get done.

 

    

Right.

 

  

And yet when, when you do that, like, like the kid, like you said, time flies by and there is this sense of freedom and the sense of joy. Like really, that's where you're going to connect with the joy. That's why the kid wants to do it with you as a kid. I feel like the kid's almost saying, join me on this journey towards joy. And so like, let's go on this.

 

    

Right, right, and if they said that, why can't they just say that to us? If they said that to us, we would say, sure, that sounds great. But instead, it's, well, you play Ariel the Little Mermaid again. That is not a journey to joy for me. But that game was a real breakthrough for me because I found it so boring. when I got it was three, she wanted to play Ariel the Little Mermaid. And the way you played the game was you...

 

Yes, yes.

 

    

take off the clothes and put on different clothes and have a wedding. So I went to Prince Eric and had the wedding. And that was the whole game and it was so boring. And I was giving her lectures on feminism, know. One time I said, can't we just be friends? I was Prince Eric. was like, can't we just be friends? And he started whacking my doll with her dolls. He said, you won't marry me. And if you un-marry me, I will kill you.

 

  

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

  

my gosh, it's awesome.

 

  

No!

 

    

This is high conflict divorce. This is great. So I was so bored with this game. like, you know, like you were saying, Kyle, I was just like literally falling asleep playing this boring game. And I thought there's something wrong with my daughter. She doesn't even know how to play creatively. And, but that turns out that was not the problem. So I called a friend and, you know, I think your phone and

 

I'm serious.

 

    

you're in a timer or you're in there timers on the phone. you best think not scrolling because you're lost in it. Like, you know, we all do, but calling a friend who understands, calling a friend who you can get out of your shot of your kid and say, I'm so sick of this stupid game. And this is what I did. I called my friend Chris and I said, I can't play this aeroband one more time. I'm going to run over those dolls with the car. I'm going to.

 

    

tell her they were made of sweat chops and tell her what sweat chops are and then she would be so bad. then my friend said, she said, do you feel better after your little temper tantrum? I said, I'm not having a temper tantrum. And you know, I do feel better after my temper tantrum, you know? Why do I stop kids from having temper tantrums? I feel better after. And then I decided, that's when I realized that I've been telling her her favorite thing in the world is boring and stupid.

 

  

Yeah

 

  

See you.

 

Yes, yes.

 

  

Hmm. I know.

 

    

Now, how would I like it if somebody told me, you know, Larry, your favorite thing in the whole world is boring and stupid. I wouldn't want to hang out with them anymore, you know? So I decided I could do anything for 10 minutes. I've, you know, I've been to graduate school. I've been to, I've done things more boring than playing Ariel the Little Mermaid. And I mean, no offense to my learned professors, but so I called her, I hung up the phone.

 

  

    

And I went and found her and I said, Hey, do you want to play Ariel the little mermaid? And she was very suspicious. You know, I've been fighting this game for a year and she said, okay. And I set the timer and I just was enthusiastic. you know, I had was fresh from my temper tantrum outburst friend and having somebody who was not going to call the police and call social services to have my kid taken away because I say these terrible things was so helpful. And.

 

    

and I, what would, the only difference was that I was just had some enthusiasm and within two minutes we were not playing the same boring game again. The game suddenly was very creative. Definitely because of this experience I had, my daughter suddenly became a creative person. was like, no, she was always ready to be creative. She was waiting for a partner, not to have the ideas, but a partner to match her enthusiasm.

 

  

Yeah, yeah.

 

  

Yes. Yes, it's a... Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

 

Yeah, how you joined her.

 

    

And then the time went off and I didn't want to stop and I couldn't believe it.

 

  

Like it's over already. was just that we're just getting married. Yeah. I think as parents, it can feel almost unbelievable that you could get there where you want the play to continue, but it happened. You're like, no, I like this story. Let's keep going. Yeah. I, okay. So one question I would come up against a lot parents who, what if my child is being violent or playing

 

    

What happened? Yeah, let's have a wedding.

 

    

Thank

 

death or something, you know, as a parent, you're like, no, what does this mean?

 

    

Yeah. So this is so funny. It's not funny. That's not funny. what's funny is that parents say, adults say children can't tell fantasy from reality. The child is no problem. It's the adult. When adults say the game is violent, the game is not violent. The game has symbolic aggression. The way to deal with

 

    

with aggression, aggressive play in children is not aggression. Aggressive play is play. It's a variety of play. It's a time-honored, ancient, never boring type of play. And it's great. And the thing to do about it is to join in. And I know that their mom's like, I can't join in a game like that. But the example I love is there's a mom who asked me,

 

  

 

    

What do I do? What do I do? My kid's favorite game is pulling the heads off his action figures and throwing them down the stairs and making exclusion noises. And I said, that would a great game. You got to join in the games. Like I can't do the game. It's too violent. It's like, it's not violent. There's not a, no human being or animal is harmed. It's a piece of plastic. It's, it's imagination. This is, you know, there's no.

 

  

my gosh.

 

  

 

    

good book without conflict. know, how many deaths are in the Bible, you know? This is life, right? So you join in, you say, no, Henry, your head blew off. We gotta get you to the medics and get your head sewn back on. You're my best friend. We've been through so many battles together. It's so nice. If you say, no, no, no, that's violence, playing that. The tape gets stuck because

 

  

Yes, yes, yep, yep, yep.

 

  

Yeah.

 

That's right. Yes. Yes. Yep.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

 

    

Here there's this natural urge and you've just told them it was bad. So what do they do with it? They have to go sneak it or they hide it. Those are bad. But if it's just natural, like that's exciting. If you join in here in one second, you can introduce themes of friendship, loyalty and rescue. Now, you're my best friend. We got to sew it back on.

 

  

 

  

 

    

And you can't do that without joining. can't just say, play a game about friendship, loyalty, and rescue instead. So just relax, you know? And if there's real aggression, okay? The, you know, the five-year-old is hitting the toddler because he's, the toddler's like suddenly getting into all of the, you know, the older sibling stuff. Well, the opposite is not be nice.

 

Yeah, yes, being so violent. Yes. Yeah.

 

Yeah, yep.

 

    

It's not possible. know, if you've ever been really angry and somebody tells you, be nice and smile. Now you want to kill them. But the opposite of real aggression is symbolic aggression. So that could look like, yeah, you can pick on a two year old, but you come pick on somebody your own size. You'll never get me.

 

  

 

  

Exactly. No, Larry, you're totally getting into what I hope all the dads here is that's what was so freeing to me. I'll give you two quick examples was one there was a time my son and lots of these stories seem to be about my son because about some obviously dad son issues, but but like my son would would be upset that I'd asked him to put some stuff up because we're going to go somewhere and he would growl at me. go,

 

And the first couple of times he did that, this like thing came up in me of like, I've got to let my son know he can't do that. Like, you're not going to growl at me. What do think you're doing? And then I was like, wait, what would, what would he say in playful parenting? I think I would just match him in this. then the next time he growled, I wasn't surprised. I had a plan and the plan was I'm just going to growl at him and I'm going to chase him around the house. So as soon as he growled at me, I went, I'm going to eat you. And I like ran after him and he started going,

 

And I got and by the time I got him something really cool happened by time I got him. I threw him on the couch and I'm kind of like rough housing with him a little bit is then I held him and he started to cry. And he started to tell me that he thought I was telling him he couldn't play that thing the rest of the day that once we put it up, he was not going to have time. And I was like, I wasn't saying that at all. I was really saying so that was a really cool moment of like, wait, Saranever would have done that. And this is something I can do that seems more

 

    

you

 

    

Nice.

 

  

Genuine to me in this moment and and where Sarawould have handled it just completely differently She would have more gotten on his level and and said like you look so mad and she would have and when I tried that it just didn't feel as Genuine and then the other thing that was really cool was we homeschool our kids and so there'd be these times when they were little that the transition from Not doing school to doing school was difficult and you could see that anxiety kind of getting in them as it was like hey we need to move from play to school and so

 

first few times I resisted it and I just was like upset. Like, come on guys, let's not make it so hard. Let's just go. And then I was like, wait, how can I help them process that anxiety better? I think what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna pick a song. And I had this song that was real fun and energetic. It was about three and a half minutes long. And I'm like, I will give you guys the chance to join up as a team and try to see if you can beat me.

 

You know, so like, we'll go and we're gonna go full force on this song. You don't worry about hurting me. At this time, they were like four and six, like just go at me just go. So they were growing, I'll be throwing them, they'd like whispering to each other about how to get me and I and it was cool to see I turned any animosity they had towards each other towards me. And I was saying like, hey, I can handle your energy. And I'm going to teach you boundaries within this by by us having limits on how aggressive we get, right. But then by the end,

 

    

Yeah.

 

    

Yes.

 

Exactly.

 

  

all that anxiety was worked through and then that transition into school was just so much easier.

 

    

Exactly. yeah, so that last one is a great example of you take what could be dangerous aggression when they take it at each other and you make it symbolic aggression because as soon as it's on you, it's symbolic aggression because they're little and you're big. And then you take the real, you know, fighting each other and you, it's like you two gang up on me.

 

  

 

    

You know, the phrase I use is even the two of you together can't tackle me or can't get this toy away from me. And now all of a sudden they're cooperating and a common enemy, but it's a play enemy. It's not a real. And then the first example is such a great picture of the tender feeling that's often underneath anger. that, and especially in boys because they're told so young,

 

  

 

    

and it's kind of in the air. don't even tell them that it's just in the air that they're not supposed to have those tender feelings. And so they cover them over with the tough feelings. And so I call this the tough shift. So there's that tender feeling of sadness and loss, but he covers it over with the errr. And if you're like, can't do that to me.

 

    

you you have to respect me, then you've crushed that anger feeling and you've crushed the tender feeling underneath. You didn't even know it was there. And so the joining it, welcoming it, I'm gonna get you. And I wanna make sure for your listeners that when you're the scary monster, you gotta be a bumbling incompetent scary monster. It's not too scary that it overwhelms you.

 

  

 

  

Yes, of course, that's good. That's good to know. Of course.

 

    

So, and then you get the connection. you join, chase, that such a beautiful connection game? You hold him, then you've got the connection reestablished and he can let out the deeper layer, those tender feelings of loss. And he can do it in the most beautiful way in your arms, crying his heart out. And you're recognizing that.

 

  

Yeah.

 

    

even though it was based on a misunderstanding that the feeling is real, the feeling is legitimate, even though he was wrong in some way, a feeling's not wrong. And so he needs to finish it, needs to release it. so, yeah, yeah, so much there.

 

  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yes, yeah.

 

  

It's such a good way of so many parents even I hope they're especially dads listening to this or moms of kids coming back from school and they've had a lot of like anxious stuff about school or stress about school or kids coming away from soccer practice or and there's some you're seeing there's conflict or the kid is you obviously got some big emotions is man just love getting into a regular ritual or routine of the rough housing or you talk a lot about pillow fighting or you these kind of things of ways for us to work out.

 

I, you know, not real aggression, but like you said, this symbolic aggression, that's really cool to where it's, it's a safe place to do it because I'm the big person. and, and, and if I, it makes me put some responsibility on me to be restrained and make sure I'm also being conscious of my strength.

 

    

 

  

and the boundaries. mean, it was funny how many times I had to reevaluate cause I would start getting into the rough housing too much. And then eventually my son, my son would be in tears because I threw him too hard. And I did find even that was funny. don't know if you noticed that Larry, but I noticed with my daughters, I wouldn't throw them as hard. And then like my son, I would pick him up and throw him harder. And so he ended up always being the one in tears because I somehow had this weird thing that I needed to toughen him up, but I needed to, yeah, but I,

 

but I need to be kinder to my daughters. It was just interesting how that happened, but through the play, I got to see that about myself and I realized ways in which I was probably playing out in other areas too, where maybe I was being tougher on my son and not as much of my daughters. And I needed like, I need to be conscious about how I'm doing that with each of the different genders that we have in our home.

 

    

Right, right. And when you hold back your modeling that when you're bigger and stronger, you hold back. And this is cornerstone of human morality. And I say human morality, but baboons do it, right? And then when I was researching my book, Unplug and Play about rough housing, which used to be called the art of rough housing, now it's called Unplug and Play that I co-authored, I studied a lot of animals.

 

  

 

    

And baboons are like fighting machines, especially the adolescent males. They're like, they have to prove themselves. They are fighting machines and you know, they could rip up, you know, whatever a pro human wrestler in two seconds. They're little, but they're and, but they'll play with a little one with a little baboon and they'll play for 45 minutes and they will not overpower them. They hold back.

 

  

wow.

 

  

 

    

their strength. And in the troop, in the troop of baboons, it's like, if you are an adolescent male, if you're good with the little ones, that's brownie points for you. That's really good. And, and I just think, okay, guys, you know, if a baboon can do it, then you can do it. And you don't

 

  

Mmm. Wow. That's really cool. neat. Yeah.

 

  

That's right.

 

    

Every moment doesn't have to be all out. And the dads will say, it's not fair. Their peers are not gonna handicap themselves and go easy on them. It's like, you're not their peer. They need to fill up with connection at home. They need to win and have that confidence. And then they can go out and do it fair and square.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes. Go easy on him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

 

  

Yeah, well, if you could kind of in wrapping up Dr. Cohen, what is some suggestion do you give to parents listening today who really want to dive more into this being more intentional about play? What are some easy steps they could start doing today to start implementing that as a routine in their family?

 

    

Yeah, so I'll say if play is is something that's is challenging and foreign and and I don't have time or I don't like it then I have one suggestion a different suggestion and that is set a timer for 10 minutes throw yourself in before and after arrange with a friend to call them and you know it's embarrassing to say

 

You know, I'm going to play for 10 minutes and it's going to be terrible and I want to talk to you about it. But you know, your child is worth pushing through that embarrassment and notice what comes up. Your first job, first few times you do it, don't worry about how the play goes. Notice what goes on inside. Is it fear? Is it falling asleep? Is it boredom? Is it, I've got so much to do. Is it painful memories from childhood? Is it pleasant memories from childhood? You know, what

 

  

you

 

    

What goes on inside? Really notice that's the first big step. Now if you love play and you just want to have more of it in your life, then set regular time, put it in your schedule, because we all know that we're over scheduled, most of us. And so if it's not in the schedule, it won't happen. And don't treat it as extra. It's not extra.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

    

It's as important as meal time. You don't skip meals just because, you know, my to-do list was too long, so we didn't have any meals today. Okay? And so it doesn't make sense to say, my to-do list was too long, so we didn't have any play time today.

 

  

Yeah. So yeah, so really prioritize it and almost make it like, especially in this busy culture of you're making time for soccer practice or football practice or like, I mean, I know many times my son specifically, but our daughters will too, but can we just have time to play today? You know, and they will advocate for themselves and just be like, could we just have a day free where we can just play? See it like you see it, reenergize them. Yeah.

 

    

And right, yeah.

 

We think of those things as play, soccer practice and football practice and being in a play at school, you know, but it's not the same. That has a work element to it. And it's adult led and when children want more play time, they want more child directed time. They want more complete freedom of anything within reason that they can do.

 

  

huh.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Yeah, well, I want to make sure our listeners know where to find you. Obviously, the books I've already referenced, which are fantastic, Playful Parenting and also The Opposite of Worry, which is a great book for kids struggling with anxiety. I love how you share a lot of personal stories yourself about being an anxious kid and how you were able to overcome that.

 

There you're incorporating play to help the kid do that. But this also unplug and play would be another great book. What other ways could they find the work you're doing or be connected to it to the information you put out there?

 

    

Yep. So on Instagram, it's Larry Cohen, Playful Parenting. And on there, you can click the link or you could go send me an email, a newsletter at Playful Parenting, and I'll put you on my monthly newsletter. And that's the way to find out about trainings and get some, you know, more stories and to connect.

 

  

Okay, yep.

 

  

That's so great. Yes. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I'm sure all of our parents listening to this are going to be so thankful for you giving this information because it has completely transformed how I do dading. My kids, kind of father I am. So really appreciate your work and you giving it to society to use. Yeah. Thank you.

 

    

Thanks, Sara. Thanks, Kyle.