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Episode 104

How To Change Persistent Ongoing Conflicts With Your Children

April 22, 2024
In Episode 104, Kyle and Sara, LPCs, talk about one of the most important steps to effectively change behavior in a family. The follow up conversation is vital in not only encouraging desirable behavior but also teaching new behavior and skills. Why is it so hard to do the follow up? Why do kids resist it so much? Is it possible to create a different type of interaction where the child actually welcomes and looks forward to the follow up conversation?

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Episode 104 Transcript:

Welcome to the art of raising humans. I'm Kyle and I'm Sara and before we jump into today's topic, you know, we're still really after episode 100. We were talking a lot about asking people to go and leave reviews, leave comments, still want to reach that 100. We're not quite there. Okay. And so we want people, if you're listening right now and you're loving the content, finding it helpful, please jump right on to whatever platform you're listening to it. Please leave us review. It's super helpful. So other parents can find us.


and get the support that we're wanting. We really want to hit that hundred, don't we? Yeah, it'd be fun. Yeah. Yeah. You sound super excited. So we really appreciate all the comments. We really appreciate when you give us feedback about how it's helping. So all that stuff is really great, too. So today's topic, Sara, what we want to jump into is something that I hear a lot from parents. OK, a lot of times parents, they keep doing the same thing over and over again, and they're hoping things will change.


And they're trying really hard. I think all of us parents were trying really hard and we think, okay, I've got to stay consistent. I've got to do, this is the thing. I've got to do it really well. We're missing a piece. And well, because we all know that's the definition of insanity, right? And I think as a parent, when we've been there, that we keep trying the same thing going, when's this going to change? Like you feel like you're going insane. Cause you want that behavior to shift. You're wanting something even sometimes it's the behavior in yourself, right? Is you're wanting to stop.


yelling you're wanting to you know be more peaceful you're one whatever that thing is you're trying to shift and it just seems like you keep trying things so a lot of times you know we see parents that come for help and they'll say oh we've tried everything you know or we've already tried that and it didn't work yeah they've tried really hard and they're on this cycle that just keeps repeating and so today sir i want us to hit the thing that is not happening and for good reasons there's reasons why they're not doing it is


the follow -up, okay, is the follow -up. What we wanna do today is give you some tried and true methods to help make change more likely to happen in your family, okay? So what we know about change is that change only happens when you do the reflection, you know? You know, like something I like to talk about, Sara, is lots of sports, the way even athletes change, is athletes have to watch the game film.


that they've got to be disciplined. I mean, the best athletes are really, really disciplined about watching the game film of the games they did great and the games they didn't do so great, right? Like they're in the habit of constantly doing that, reflecting upon it, not only on their own, but with someone else, right? Typically with a coach or with other players, and they reflect upon how to make that game different in the future. Yeah. If you have breaking it down, this is what I did. This is how it was received or this is what the opponent did. And


And so they're breaking down all the little pieces and reviewing that so they can make change. Yeah, so in order to make change, self -reflection is pivotal. It's crucial. And not only in ourselves, but in our kids. And that's actually a habit we want our kids to get into. We want our kids to be disciplined and feeling like they can self -reflect. Why is that important? Well, we know from the brain science that as we self -reflect,


I actually strengthen my prefrontal cortex. So then I can become more self -aware. And so what we know from psychology and counseling, that's actually the whole point of why you do it, is to raise your self -awareness so then you can feel empowered to then change it. If I'm not willing to look at it, I can't change it. Right. And really, there's another word we all use for it. It's just maturing. Yes. It's part of a process if we don't.


ever look back on how even in business and any walk in life, if you don't look back on, well, this is what I tried to do, or this is what we did, and how did it go, and what could I do different next time? That whole part of the brain that plans, that evaluates, is pulling the pieces apart, that strategizes, that thing has to be exercised, it has to be built, it's not something we're actually just born with. We have to build it. And so it's a skill. So you have to intentionally say, okay, I'm gonna sit down, just like you do with your.


panel of coworkers and think how did that how that marketing strategy go let's reflect on that let's figure out what we want to do next time we need to do the same thing in any area in life yeah so any time we're helping parents one of the first questions we ask if a parent says hey this happened and this thing blew up and there was this conflict and it really sucked I'll say did you follow up and and I would say Sara probably seven out of ten times there's been no follow -up okay


And the problem with there being no follow up is what did we learn then from the conflict? You know, I mean, we did learn things. So if you don't follow up, what's some of the things you do learn? If you don't follow up? Yeah. I would say you actually just get in the habit of just moving on. Yeah. And then you're sort of hoping it doesn't happen. Crossing your fingers. Yeah. Or, you know, you just, it just, you just learn to move on. Just don't keep looking at it. Hope it goes better next time instead of.


in a space of calm, rethinking it. This may be a dumb example, Sara, but I'm thinking even like sometimes when I go to the grocery store and you've put like a list of things you want me to buy at Target or Walmart or something. It's a really great list. So this is list and then I'll go there and there'll be some confusion about things you want. Like what kind of cheese? Exactly, what kind of cheese are you talking about? How much cheese? Yeah, and so if we don't as a couple follow up and say, hey, it would really help me if you communicated it this way or you put that note there.


because I'm kind of confused because obviously lots of times, Sara, you know better than I do what it is you're looking for because maybe you're specifically cooking that meal, right? So then I'm going getting the item, but you in your mind imagine the item and I'm not able to imagine it. So through the years, I mean, we've been married almost 22 years, we fine tune that more and more and more, right? To where that list makes more and more sense to me when I go. This is an ongoing conversation. That has happened because of the follow -up, you know?


If I just go to the store and I get upset about the list and my confusion and I come home and I'm just upset about it and we never talk about it, that list is going to continue looking the same way, right? We eventually have to have a discussion about how we could tweak that list. Well, without the intentional conversation, you're hoping that maybe I figure out some details to add without you just saying, hey, this would help me if you did this and this. And I realize what you don't know because it seems real obvious to me. They're not on there because I think you don't cook a lot.


So you don't, you know, what I think is a given isn't something you know, but I don't know that. So you tell me, I learn, we learn from each other because we have conversations about it. Instead of hoping that you've filled in the blanks, I filled in the blanks and we're coming together. And I know this sounds silly, like it's such a simple issue, but it is a big issue that can start breeding resentment in a marriage. And I see this no different. Well, those things stack up. I mean, at first it's just a simple grocery list, but then it's all these other things. If you're not in that habit, they all start.


build up and create a problem in any relationship. What I'm thinking even that's what we're saying is the problem if you don't follow up you do learn something and the thing we would learn in that example is we just don't talk about it. We come home and we hope things are better right. Whereas really we want to as parents and as couples to be able to guide what we learn from the conflict. I'll back it up just a second. From that we could I could just assume I could think start thinking things like what's wrong with him it's so obvious.


I mean, if this is what we're eating, this is the kind of cheese you need. Who doesn't? I could start to have these, I mean, that's a silly example, but I could start to have judgments. Those things do happen. You could have judgments about she doesn't even care. She's just sending me out there. So I'm just making a step. She's bad at communication. She doesn't care that I'm spending my time going to the store for dinner and she can't just tell me what kind of cheese. Things like that, that just, we're humans and those thoughts start to happen.


and we don't have any clarity without the conversation, we don't have clarity. I'm running on assumptions and you're running on assumptions. I love that you point that out, because that's the real goal of all communication, right? Is eventually, we know we've communicated well if we understand each other better and are more clear on what the other person is wanting, right? And so that's a great way of summing up the follow -up, right? Is through whatever time, if there's friction, if there's conflict, or even if it goes really well, like there's so many times, Sara, where for a teenager,


The teenager will say to me, man, my parent has really been changing. I like how they did X, Y, and Z. Last time, they typically would have yelled at me, but they didn't. And I'll say to the kid, did you follow up with them? And they're like, what do you mean? Did you tell them you liked it? And they'll be like, no, I didn't. Dude, if you want them to keep doing that, maybe tell them it was awesome. And then the parent, I told them, no parent is going to get mad at you saying, wow, thank you for talking to me that way. I liked that. Because then the parent will go, oh, you liked that? Great. This is working.


You know, and so I can do that again. Yes. You don't know it worked or you don't know that that was real successful for that other person. You don't necessarily have it in your mind to intentionally repeat it. Yep. And so, so we're, we're talking here about another way of phrases, how to change the dance, right? Or if you liked the dance, how to keep the dance going. Okay. So now almost every time I say this to a parent, I'll say, did you follow up? And then they say no. And I'll say, well, how come? How come you didn't follow up?


and almost always they'll talk about this hesitancy or this resistance from the kid being willing to have that conversation, right? They're not receptive, they're not open, all right? So if anybody's listening right now, I'm sure you're like, yeah, it's exactly, we tried that, it didn't work, Kyle, we tried to do the follow -up and they just shut down or they just say, I don't know, or there's no real, it's not typically bringing more closeness, more understanding, it's actually.


Very stressful. And then the kid is just like mad that you brought it up. So that the kid will just explode again. So we want to talk about, there are ways to follow up that make it more likely you'll be successful doing this. But first, I want to talk about what is it that causes a kid, more often than not, to not want to follow up? So what's some reasons a kid wouldn't want to follow up? Oh, because it just feels like.


great we get to rehash how terrible I am again and they're just layering on even more shame or how upset they are at me or maybe they actually feel bad and they don't want that brought back up it doesn't feel good to have someone say remember how you messed up no who we don't like I don't like that or I'm gonna get in trouble even more or again all of those things doesn't feel good yeah


I mean, I don't know how in the sports world, because I didn't do that, but when they review tape, of course they're going to be pointing out what they did wrong. There's a piece of vulnerability there, no matter what the situation is. And when it comes to relationship, there's a huge amount of vulnerability having that dredged back up. We just want to let that lay there. So in summing that up, lots of times a kid won't want to do follow up, because the kid doesn't think it's helpful. The kid doesn't trust.


that this is going to be something good for our relationship. I think a lot of times a kid is doing, like you said, because of that shame and they don't wanna rehash it, but also they think, this doesn't seem to help our relationship either. So I don't wanna, you're saying this is some - Can they make more distance? Yes. It's honestly scary. Yeah. Very vulnerable. Do they even feel safe to have that fall? And I'd even ask it in marriages for those who are listening, how safe do you feel in having the fall? Couples want to avoid it too because they don't wanna, they think it's gonna turn into a big yelling argument.


It's just gonna cause us to resent each other more. So we just forget about it and move on. Brush it under the rug. That's the saying for a reason. Because we all feel safer sometimes just brushing it under the rug and letting it stay there. And another reason why Sara is I think parents slip into the mistake and I know I did this. This is the reason, you know, we learned from this, you know, so everyone who's listening, I wrote these notes out of my own experience of I would slip into lecturing, would definitely slip into monologuing or shaming.


Yeah. Right. And I noticed that with Abby in particular, as she was getting older, and I'd have the follow up and be like, oh, these follow ups are so important. Let's learn. And I think every parent's been there where Abby's looking at me and her eyes are just glazed over. And then I would feel myself getting more upset and be like, are you listening to me? Do you hear a thing I'm saying? And then you know how kids will do it when you say, repeat back what I'm saying. And then the kid can repeat back almost everything you said.


But you're like, I don't think you're learning the depth of what I'm trying to convey here, you know? And the very thing that she was afraid of with follow -up is happening. Yes. Yep. Yep. And things are breaking apart more instead of coming together, which is the point of what we're talking about in follow -up. It's to actually heal things and repair and bring things together. Learn and grow, right? Not re -lecture, re -punish, redo all of us. Things have really happened. So I want everyone who's listening to understand that the reason why anybody, whether it's a couple,


or it's a kid, your spouse, whatever you're talking to, or a friend, the reason why somebody's hesitant to follow up and do any kind of learning is no different than like Sara was saying, that athlete, if that athlete thinks they're just gonna get shamed, lectured, monologue, if they think it's just gonna be a whole thing about how I stink and you're better than me, all those, nobody's gonna be receptive to that. Everybody is going to resist that. And so I think in the process of making this a habit in a family,


the parent needs to have a clear picture of what they want instead of focusing on what they don't want. They need to have a clear picture of what is the point of this follow -up? What are we trying to accomplish? And I think initially, you definitely don't want it to be a win -lose discussion. You want to focus on how can this be a win -win? How can we both grow and change? This isn't about changing the kid. It isn't even about changing you.


It's about changing the interaction between you and the kid. And as soon as a kid knows that, like I'm telling you, every kid I help at the private practice, every kid I get to spend time with, the kid wants that. The kid wants that conversation. They want a good relationship. Even if it feels like it's broken apart so much that they don't care anymore, they do. They do care. Everybody wants great relationships. They don't want to come home and there's tension and anger and all this stuff just sitting there.


They want a good relationship. And we have to, we have to create that. We have to take that step and create a safe space for them to realize, I know maybe we've done this other thing before, but we're doing something new now and it's safe. And I'm listening to you. And this is a mutual relationship discussion, feedback. Well, and so think about that's what you're doing. If you, I like that, that metaphor of a dance honey, cause it's like,


you are changing the dance with the kid. I mean, you're actually going to say, hey, I know the music we used to listen to, and I know the dance steps we used to do, but I want to actually try some new music, and I wanna try some new dance steps. Now, but in that metaphor, the reason why I think it's so appropriate, one, it's this cool relationship metaphor of us flowing together, but it also, if anybody's ever tried dancing with, I'm not that good at it, but if anybody's ever tried dancing, it's hard to learn new steps, you know?


I mean, if I learn one line dance in a group, that's fun. It feels cool once you get it down. But to learn a whole new one, well, you kind of do get it. It gets a little easier as you learn more and more. But each time, you got to be focused. You got to be intentional. You got to learn the steps. You got to practice them together, right? And so when you invite the kid into changing the dance, that's what the goal of the follow -up is, is we're going to talk about how to do this dance different. Well, as I think about it, I love the dance too, because if you're the...


if you're dancing with people, a partner or many of them, the dance isn't gonna go well if somebody's kind of pushing everyone, right? It has to be something where we're coming together. Everyone feels like we're coming together. It's safe to come together. If you're trusting a leader in a dance, you know, if there's two of you and you're dancing and you're trusting that leader, it's not cause they're shoving you around and you know, it's really because you're coming together.


Yes. And everyone is coming together. And we've all agreed to come together to change this dance. And you're feeling safe, so to speak, to do that, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And so here's what I did. Sara, I want your input on this. I know I really feel like I needed to change that dance because my intensity, my frustration in coming into the follow -up, like I said, started to kind of turn Abby off initially. And I was thinking, man, we've got three kids, and this is already happening. I don't want this to be a pattern.


where we start to get into this habit of we don't follow up because we're all afraid about that conversation. And I can tell the kids were kind of apprehensive or hesitant to have that. So what I needed to do was I needed to put some boundaries on how I was gonna follow up. I really needed to put boundaries on me. And I wanted to show up, I wanted to show that it would be a positive and helpful interaction. It doesn't need to be a serious conversation. It can actually be lighthearted and fun.


You know, so like I'm even thinking like in the sports scenario, I'm sure all the follow ups with the coaches or when they're watching, it isn't just always really, everyone's really serious. I'm sure there are some lighthearted moments. So I want everyone listening to understand, I'm not talking about this really serious eye to eye. It's probably not gonna work very well if you take it to the perch. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna try to take the energy out of it and just be able to make it a more comfortable thing where we're both able to be in our prefrontal cortex. We're both believing we're for each other.


So one of the things I did, Sara, was I purposely started this one. This is just a technique I tried that worked really well. And I encourage a lot of parents to help. Since I am such a big talker, and I can monologue, and I can lecture, is I wanted to show Abby that I wasn't going to do that. That wasn't my intent. My intent was to understand her. So how does me talking the whole time help me understand her? It doesn't really accomplish that. So I thought, man, I want to be more curious. So.


I put a limit, and it's just a made up limit, but I said, I'm just gonna ask her three questions. So in the follow up, I said, Abby, I wanna try something different. I wanna just, whenever we have a conflict, I do wanna learn from it, and I'm just gonna ask you three questions, and that's all I'm gonna ask you. And it doesn't mean I didn't have more questions, I had tons more questions. And my three questions sometimes stunk, they weren't even like great questions. It's not like they're the three perfect questions, but they were three questions that I thought could help me better understand her, and I thought,


even if she never owns anything that she did in this moment, that's not the point. The point is retraining ourselves in how to do this and show her that she can trust me, that I am really just wanting to understand where she's coming from. So I would say to Abby, hey, I'm just gonna ask three questions and all I'm asking from you is to really take a moment to give me thoughtful answers. And man, the first time we did it, Sara, the way I knew it was successful was.


At the end of it, I asked her the three questions, and then we were going into a store. So I actually did this on our way into the store. And I said, hey, I just have three questions about something that happened today when you and I got mad at each other. And so she said, OK. So I asked the three questions. At the end, I said, how did that feel? Did you like that? And she said, I did. I felt like you really cared about what I thought rather than just wanting me to care about what you thought. And I realized that's what I'd been doing the whole time.


Yeah. I'd been modeling to her that I just wanted her to care about what I thought. Yeah. You know, and I wasn't really curious about what was going on in her inner world. Yeah. So I love that one, you were, you set the stage. Like I think that's really important for parents to know. I think sometimes we feel not at the mercy of our kids, but if they're real upset or in a, in a really hard space, you can feel like you don't have much power there.


But I love that you actually kind of demonstrate no matter what the situation is, you're not waiting for your child. You can actually start that change. You have a lot more power sometimes than I think we realize. Even if it doesn't feel like it. And then two, that it wasn't the perfect set of questions. It wasn't the perfect scenario. You're just like, I'm gonna change this. And I'm just gonna give it a go.


And so you intentionally set three questions, set the stage, we'll do it in a safe space of just driving somewhere, you know, not just like sit down, let's have this serious conversation. But so you did that. And then, and then at the end, she felt closer to you because you just listened. And, and sometimes I think as parents, we feel this anxiety to make sure the kid got the lesson that the kid is going to change. They're going to do better or whatever, whatever it might be. We're really worried about that. Cause we see it long work.


we're taking this one moment and looking to their entire future. I know, we're flash forwarding way. And that relationship is your most powerful thing. The ability to be, for her to be heard, for any child to be heard and be able to express themselves, that's gonna get you much further than feeling like, yes, they heard my big moral point or whatever it might have been. That's not gonna, kids often can tell you all the rules,


all the things and that doesn't mean they're gonna do them. It's the relationship that's the driving force and you built the relationship. And that can be scary because we feel like, but did she get, did the punishment, did the lesson, did the whatever happen? But that's not gonna get you as far. We see that time and time again, because you see this cycle happen in families over and over and they're punishing or they're lecturing or they're, and that happens over and over without the change. The relationship and anybody in my coworker relationship, my relationship with you,


that relationship is the thing that matters and you built that by having that follow up. Well, what I wanted to do too, Sara, and I'll give them a quick, I want to give our listeners a quick example of what it would look like is I wanted to make sure I'm modeling a couple of things that I want to understand you. So I'm going to model that. Why is that important? Because I want her to understand me too, right? So if I'm, if inevitably I do want to understand, I do want her to understand my perspective, but I'm going to first model understanding her perspective.


And then I want her to be able to take responsibility, right? So then I'm gonna model that as well. So some of the questions, these are just examples, is I might, before I even ask the main questions, I might just say, hey, did you like how that went today? That might be an initial opening question. And then the people say, no. I say, okay, cool, could I ask you three questions about the event? So I'm just making up these three questions. So I might say something like, what didn't you like about?


Right. And then I was, I'm causing them to do what reflect upon what happened and what they did or did not like about it. So that's a prefrontal cortex activity. Then second, I might ask, is there anything you feel like I could have done differently in that moment? Or you would have liked me to have done differently. And then once again, now the kid typically is more willing to have that conversation because that's different than just jumping right into what could you have done differently? How could you have changed that? I'm going to, I'm a model for you that I'm curious.


what you think I could have and sometimes the kid actually has a really great perspective and like they'll be like, dang, that would have actually worked a lot better, right? So then they'll tell me and maybe I'll say in that moment, Hey, will you forgive me for that thing I did, right? Maybe the kid didn't like how I yelled at them or how I judge them or criticize them, whatever it's right. So then I just say, Hey, and then I'd say, my third question is, is there anything you could have done differently? Yeah.


And so then I just see how that goes. So maybe a third question, I'm taking a little stab at it to see how willing they are to move the shame out of the way and reflect not that they're a bad kid, but that they could have just done it better, you know? And you did it first. I did it first. And then I'm see the, and then sometimes the parents said, well, then what if they say no? Then I just say, um, I had some thoughts on that. Could I share a couple of things I would have liked to have done differently? Right. And then once again, see if the kids open and receptive because.


If you share that information, they're not open and receptive. It's not going to help you anyway. It's either going to back up their poor opinion of themselves or they're just going to ignore it. Yeah. I would say if this is the first time you're doing that and you've had a very different dynamic, they're, they're very likely to say, Nope, because they're like, I don't trust this yet. As you repeat it though, you build that trust and eventually well, and they'll test the waters. They'll pick something really minor. I could have, you know, they'll say something that you're like,


That's the thing. There's all this. I have a long list of things you could have done, but they'll throw out that and they're just testing and they're just seeing, is this, is this really safe? And can I really lean into it? As you model that over and over, they'll feel safer. And then the first time they do it, if they're watching you to see how did you, are you going to now jump on me about that thing? Did you use that against me? Did you react to that? Yeah. Or if you bring it up the next, remember how you said you could have done.


you have to be very, very safe. If you're going to hold that vulnerability of them owning something that stays on that table, you're grateful. And that's how they're going to learn. Because they're going to feel like, OK, I can step into that a little bit more. I can lean in further next time. But they're going to tell you, you've got to be patient and keep putting yourself out there. You're building trust. You can trust this. And even the word I was thinking of, as you said that, that's a third thing you're modeling, is vulnerability. You're actually risking and being vulnerable.


what they're going to say to you and then you're asking them to do the same thing. And too often I want to, if whoever's listening to this is that's why typically your spouse or your kids is hesitant or resistance to these conversations because they don't want to be vulnerable because it's risky. Okay. So I want to leave them with these five nuggets. Okay. These five ways of switching your thinking. If you're not doing follow -up, cause you've been like, Hey, that doesn't work. I'm telling you, it's the only way things are going to change. So, so there's five things I wrote down that I,


really feel like I need to start believing to change these dynamics. Okay? So number one is you got to believe your voice matters. You have the power to change the pattern. Yeah. All right. So if you're doubting that at all, I want you to be rest assured your kids care what you have to say. That's actually why they're hesitant to have the conversation with you because your words matter. Maybe in the past, the words have turned into shaming and lecture and they don't want that, that, that to hurt them anymore. Okay. So number one, your voice matters.


Number two, you don't have to wait for your kid to change. I think you kind of alluded to that earlier, Sara, but I don't have to sit back and just cross my fingers. Don't sit back. Put yourself out there. Exactly. If you wait for the kid to change, I'm telling you, the kid is waiting for you to change. So the kid's going. And regardless of whether they change or not, that shouldn't be your point. Exactly. It shouldn't be to just get them, it work on you. Yes. Yeah. Do make the change you have control over, which is yourself. So the third one is,


have a clear picture of success. What do you want it to look like? So in the follow up before you go in, what does success look like? Because most of the times also when I ask about follow up Sara, they only know what they don't want it to look like. But they struggle with articulating what they actually want it to look like. I mean, they basically just want the kid to stop doing that rather than, but what does you actually want the kid to do different? So if you don't like that the kid hit their brother,


Well, they did that because they were mad and they thought that was the best way to communicate it. So what's a better way to communicate that? So you gotta, you gotta, the whole point of the follow up is to guide them. Just like in the sports metaphor, if I don't want the guy throwing the football that direction or kicking the soccer ball, I've got to tell them where to kick it. The goal was to kick it over here. Number four is - You wouldn't, in football, you wouldn't be like, don't miss the ball.


You'd be like, catch the ball. And then I would teach them how to catch the ball, right? I wouldn't use negatives, I would use positives. And number four is believe that your child wants to do it better. I think that that's a lot of the demotivation over, you know, instead of doing the follow up, they believe the kid, you know, somehow doesn't want to change, doesn't want to do it better. I believe the kid does, the kid is actually wanting to make this ending better. They want to co -create with you a better outcome.


Yeah, and there's all kinds of just real brief. There's all kinds of studies about even school teachers, what they believe to be true about a student and then that students performance. So it's very true in relationships. Even if you don't always feel that way, you want to move in the direction of believing in your child, believing in the relationship, believing in go that direction versus nope, they're never gonna, they're not this. Yeah. And because you then you won't follow up. What's the point? Yeah. And then the last one is. They'll feel that from you.


Buy into the idea, please, that follow -up is a key component to change. It is necessary. We've got to review and reflect, not to rehash it, not to be the dead horse. We've all been there with people who are doing that. No, I've been that person. We don't need to do it. We're not talking about beating a dead horse. We're talking about looking at it with open hands, reflecting on it, and then co -creating a different outcome. All right?


So I hope this conversation was helpful to all the listeners. If you are not doing follow -up, if it's driving you insane how nothing seems to be changing, please listen to this with your spouse, share it with friends, and start doing this with your kids because they desperately want to do it better with you. So I hope this really empowers you to take that step forward and just really enjoy you listening to us today. Yeah, thank you. We appreciate you.


you so tired of the insanity going on in your house where it seems like we keep doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results and you feel completely powerless to change the dance to change the patterns we keep stepping on each other's toes and it's like when is this going to end well in today's episode Sara and I are going to tackle that topic because it is a fundamental part of our parenting


that the follow -up is the key component to making change, not only with our parenting, but also in our marriage. So if you're married, if you've got kids, if you're wanting to change even relationships with friends, we're gonna walk you through how we do that with five key concepts that helped us shift from lecturing parents who just shamed after every conflict to parents who felt empowered to actually change the dance.


and saw beautiful outcomes from it. So come join us on our conversation today.

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