Episode 165

Kyle Wester (38:51.158)
Okay, can we all agree that we need to stop being permissive parents? We need to be parents who are guiding and have boundaries and are giving direction to our kids, right? Like it's, it's kind of a real problem. I'm sure you've experienced in your own home at times. Maybe you've seen other families where it just seems like, man, these kids are out of control and they just need some help. But the help isn't
Let's yell at them. Let's threaten them. Let's punish them. But if it isn't that, then what are we going to do? How are we going to actually do this? And that is what we want to talk about today. I know this is a subject that is so hard sometimes to wrap our mind around. If I'm not controlling, then they're in control, right? If I'm not telling them what to do, then they're telling me whatever they're going to do. And it becomes very, very confusing and causes a lot of problems.
in marriages all the time. We coach parents all the time that are struggling with these dynamics. One thinks they gotta be the heavy, they gotta be bad cop, and the other one feels like they gotta be good cop to balance out the bad cop. But we do not support or promote permissive parenting. There is another option. So in today's podcast, we're gonna dive into what is permissive parenting? Why do lots of parents fall into that? Why do we fall into it sometimes?
What does it look like? I wanna give you specific examples of what it looks like. And then we wanna give you this framework, these eight guidelines, these eight kind of ways of describing another option to parenting to help you kind of get a better vision and imagination for it. So you know how to go down that path if that's the path you're wanting to take. So if you haven't already, please stop, take a moment.
to uh rate and review the podcast. Leave a comment if you find this podcast helpful to you. We love five star reviews. We love to hear back from our listeners. So many supportive comments over the years have been doing this. It really encourages us to keep doing it because we want to keep providing help to you and your family. So take a moment, sit back. If you have a moment to take a pen and paper, you're going to want to write down these eight uh things that we're going to cover by the end of the podcast because it's going to help you and your spouse or you and your partner, whoever you're you're parenting with.

Kyle Wester (41:11.084)
to better understand where this road is taking you if you want to jump on this journey with us. m So enjoy the podcast.

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, many times when we're helping coach parents in their shifting, as they're shifting their parenting style, you know, is I think a big fear that is really common that a lot of parents go through. I know I went through it, is this fear of if we're not in control, if we don't quote unquote have authority, then that means the kids are gonna run wild and run crazy.
And that's lots times even social media, how it gets portrayed. It's either one or the other. Either you're telling the kids what to do or the kids are just running all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. There's even movies about it. I think it's a real common joke and it's based in some truth. Of course. No, we've seen it. Yeah. see families like that where the kids- talk to families who say, oh yeah, we want to get away from that old school parenting or we don't want to be authoritarian. And yet then it looks like their kids have no boundaries. Their kids have no direction, no guidance.
And it's like the kids are just deciding whatever they do from day to day and the parents are just sitting back, just watching it instead of having any kind of guidance at all. And I think whenever we first got married and we started talking about it and you were saying to me, I don't want to spank our kids. I don't want to use timeouts. These things are proven not to be effective in creating the relationships we want with our kids. I thought, then what are we going to do? Like then what? They're just going to scream at us?
They're just gonna go to sleep whenever they want to go to sleep. They're gonna wake up whenever they want to wake up. How are your kids going to make, you know, quote unquote good choices? Yeah. How are they going to do things that are helpful and healthy for them? If there isn't something they're saying, you have to do this. Yeah. Like a punishment. Exactly. Or a consequence. Right? Yeah. I think you're left wondering, well, how am I going to guide them? I'm just going to be like, please do please go to bed now. Well, and we thought it was important.
important to really have this discussion and really to kind of flesh it out about what parenting looks like to us. It doesn't look like being permissive, which is what this approach is, right? It's being permissive. It's basically you having a lot of support. You're being very caring and loving, which is great. And maybe in a lot of ways you're doing that because maybe you didn't experience that as a kid or that was the best part of what you liked about what your parents did. you're like, I'm gonna get away from the yelling, get away from the threatening, get away from it, which is great.

Kyle Wester (2:21.954)
fear, all that control, you're wanting to leave that behind. But then now, now you're asking me to just lean into that, which is also it's good. It's good to lean into that. But many times what happens when I'm coaching parents is then something will happen. A conflict will arise. A kid will somehow defy what they've said or push back and they want control. Yes. And then the parent will say, what do I do now? Nothing. I just do nothing. And they assume that's what you and I would do is just nothing.
We'd say, well, if the kid doesn't want to do it, I guess the kid doesn't do it. Right. Right. And then, and then that is a scary space and I can totally relate to that because I remember when you were telling me this and, we were talking about it. And even as a school counselor, as an elementary school counselor and seeing some of the kids seemingly get away with murder, you know, and it seemed like there was nothing I could do about it because the only tool I had on my tool belt was yelling or spanking or threatening. And if I can't do those things,
then what am I gonna do to control this kid? I think it's a real common next step. I mean, it feels really common and I felt myself in this space sometimes where you do say, okay, I'm gonna commit to letting go of these things. But there is this moment before you really get good at and even know what the other skills are. There's a space in between where it feels very permissive. You probably do slip into permissiveness because you're saying, okay, I'm not gonna do that.
And then there's a space of now what and, and you're not good at, you haven't learned all the other things. So you are naturally going to fall into that space sometimes. Yeah. Well, and then you're left in that confusing space. So typically then I think a lot of people just don't do anything, you know, or we say that didn't work. then we just go back to the old thing. Like I'm thinking of a story as you were talking about as an elementary school counselor. I remember.
when I was trying to buy into some of these ideas, we didn't have kids at this point, but I was trying to do some of these thoughts with kids at the school. And I remember getting called to a kindergarten class, and there was a five year old kid who was acting up in class, and the teacher wanted that kid to leave the classroom. And I was like, okay, so I go into the classroom, and I asked the kid to come with me. And the kid says no. And then I was like, Why is the kid saying no to me? And then I said, come on, let's go, come on. Why don't you take my hand and let's go.

Kyle Wester (4:40.982)
and the kid ran to the other side of the room. And as I came towards him, he just started running around a table. And as this was happening, the other kindergartners were watching me and I felt like an idiot. I felt so stupid that this five-year-old kept just running around the table and everything within me was like, just grab the kid. Just tell that kid he has to come You felt out of control. You felt powerless. And then you've got an audience. And I'm surprised you didn't even think.
great, now they're gonna all think they can do course I thought that. And then some of the kids I think even laughed. And now I look like a moron. Mass chaos, and our minds can go really far places. And I noticed in that space, the only tool I feel like I had was, I just need to grab that kid. I need to somehow be really mean, get really angry, and then I'll make that kid come. And that's where after that happened, I remember going back to my office.
and eventually the situation did get figured out. But I remember thinking, I need to have a better plan. Like I really had no tools for interject too, not only were you in that space where your mind went to what it knows, but that child, would bet, lived in a world of control dynamics. And so even that child was running because it was their seeking control and power. they're used to this power struggle with the grownup in their life. uh This is how it goes.
whoever wins, you know, this power struggle. Well, I want to share in part of that story, I eventually did get kind of bigger and louder and eventually intimidated the little five year old enough to come back to my office. I didn't feel like that was the best way to do it. But I felt helpless to do anything else. So at the end of this, once we talk about a different way of doing this, I want to share kind of how I eventually handled that, you know, to where they can see because I want the audience as you're listening to this, what would you do?
What would you do if you're called into a room and a five or six year old little kid keeps running from you and a whole classroom is watching you and laughing and you, how would you handle that? And I want you to, after I thought about it for a while, I think I remember even consulted with you a little bit. What does it look like to not just be permissive in this moment or not be authoritarian? And I want to take a moment and kind of really emphasize those words so we all understand what those mean, okay? That we've done a list of parenting styles in the past on the podcast.

Kyle Wester (7:2.700)
And we've talked about the authoritarian parent is a parent who has high expectations, mean, high expectations, but offers low support. Meaning they typically, when the kid isn't doing what they're asked, the kid will typically then start to be threatened or punishment will be given or some kind of external control or fear will be used, right? Now, a lot of parents that we run into, they maybe had an upbringing like that. And in some sense, they might call it old school parenting and they want to move away from that.
So then they moved over to that permissive side. And many times it's now they're emphasizing connection. They're emphasizing being there to listen to their kids and to love them. All that's beautiful, right? But then when the kid pushes boundaries or the kid kind of does something other than what the parents are asking, they're at a loss. And what this happens, I'm sure listeners have felt this, it causes a lot of friction in the marriage. It causes lots of times one cup, one will be saying, we need to be doing this. We need to be putting our foot down. We need to be in control.
And then the other parent's like, no, I don't think that's the way we're supposed to do it. And they end up just getting on this kind of dichotomous, like roller coaster, where one is saying, no connection, connection, connection, let's just listen to him and love him. And the other one's like, I do love him, but he also needs to know who's boss. Yeah. They won't be successful in life if they don't have these boundaries. Yeah. And so I think there is a real concern with those parents when that permissiveness is happening, because there are negative outcomes to that.
where kids who are raised in permissive homes, they are lacking guidance. They don't actually know who to go to to get that guidance from. Yeah, it can increase anxiety too because there aren't boundaries, there's some structure lacking there. And that actually does create, even though there's a lot of connection and love, then without that structure, kids actually do thrive with structure and with learning how to function in this world.
and it can miss that piece, which can increase a lot of anxiety in kids. Yeah. And they're wanting you to give them direction. know, just like, for instance, Sarah, I guess the example pops in my head. If your kid is playing sports and you have a coach who is not telling them how to play the sport and the kid is like, Hey, you guys figured out, like the kids will get confused and they'll feel anxious and then they'll go play a game and they'll get their butts kicked and they'll be like, well, cause no one really taught them and gave them direction. So like in what we're teaching and how we coach parents,

Kyle Wester (9:27.638)
is we teach them how to coach their kids, how to be able to know how to do things effectively, how to, at times, when they're going to school or going to church, whatever it might be, how to actually do those activities in a healthy way, to a really, like, our expectation is that we want our kids to be able to go into a space and for that space to be better off because our kid's there. For those teachers or those parents or those, to be like, wow, I'm so glad they showed up. You know, they really make this place better.
But without controlling the child, without using a fear and a, me hang this over you to force you to do it. it's all that love and connection with the guidance and support. So it's kind of taking the best of both of those and making this other model that we've talked about before. Yes, so there are definitely deficits to moving into that permissiveness, right? I mean, we've already talked at length and I think a lot of listeners already know this.
there are, uh there's a lot of downside to using fear, control and shame, right? But there's also a downside to to really like just saying, uh you have control now, you know, you're the one telling me what to do. There is a real downside to the kid yelling at you, insulting you or demeaning you. And a lot of terms parents will say disrespecting you. And the downside is they're they're they're hurting themselves. Like, when I talk to these kids, Sarah,
They don't like that they treat their parents this way. They actually wish somebody would help them do it in a healthier way. They want that guidance. And I think of even just, oh, they don't clean their rooms. Oh, they don't help around the house. Oh, they're not getting their homework done. Or they're not because just this sort of, OK, they need to decide. I don't want to control them. And then it just can go to the extreme. Yeah. Well, let's give a few examples just so we have.
just a clear picture. A real simple thing might be you want the kid to clean your room, clean their room, right? So an authoritarian parent would typically say clean your room or else. Else you're gonna lose your phone. You're not going to your friend's house. If you don't do that, then you're not gonna get to do X, Y, and Z or you're gonna be grounded, right? Or yeah, and on the reward side too. that's true. Yeah. Like I'll pay you for this and this and you you don't get to, you get screen time when you get this done.

Kyle Wester (11:49.932)
Yeah, it's very much this external, there's external reward or punishment to get the child to do something. Yeah, the how I picture permissiveness, I'd love for you to help me define it. I picture you ask the kid to clean the room, and then the kid just doesn't. And then you just end up cleaning it for them. Yeah, a lot of it's where you see that parent stepping in. uh
or even explaining behaviors, they're at a play date and it doesn't go very well. it's like, oh, they're just, oh, they're, you know, he's just tired. sometimes, see, there's some truth in that too. They could be tired, they could be hungry, you know, but it's that explaining away and then the never bringing that back around any guidance, but just sort of, oh yeah, they didn't do it. the parent is frequently stepping in.
to do things for the child, to cover for the child, to explain. Or even I would say lots of times you lower those expectations, because that's what permissiveness is. I'm offering more support, but lowering the I find a lot of parents just aren't asking. They aren't asking the kid to do the dishes. They aren't asking the kid to pick up the dog poop, because the kid protested a few times, right? And so the parent says, oh, I don't want to ask them. They're just going to get upset. Yeah, because they're trying not to control, right? So it's like, oh, it's their choice, their choice. But it's like,
When you can see that they grew up in a home where maybe the parent demanded that of them and they hated that and so like I'm not going to do that to my kid, right? are staying out without boundaries. They don't have bedtimes, not maybe a lot of guidance around food. So just think about those different areas and where it would just be. uh So to speak, a free for all or the child has extreme freedom and more more more. Let's kind of up the ante for parents who are definitely like well, there is some serious situations like for instance kid.
feels anxious about going to school. And like an authoritarian parent would say, yeah, so what? Yeah, dropping you off at the door, walking away. Get over it. Face your problems, man. You got to figure that out. And if you don't go to school. can't let you get away with not going, then you're going to stay home all the time. Typically, there might be a lecture even. If you think, just can't go to work because I anxious about going to work. I got to go to work. So there'll be that. But the permissive parent will say, oh, they're anxious. They don't need to go to school. If they don't feel like going to school, they don't have to go to school. Day after day after day.

Kyle Wester (13:58.582)
And then the kid just keeps asking to not go to school. And that causes a lot of tension with the couple. And you can see where there's never a follow up with any skill building, with any moving past that point. And the permissive parents, they just kind of stay there in that same space of not doing or not able to do or not. Yeah. And you can see where the child even doesn't believe in themselves because they don't ever get to build those skills and move on. So one more real life example that typically happens.
as the kids, this can happen when they're younger, but definitely gets scarier when they're older, is they get dysregulated and they get really mad and they yell at you. And maybe they say mean things like, I hate you or you're stupid, or I don't care what you have to say. And an authoritarian parent would just scream back at them. You will not talk to me that way. They definitely might get spanked or they might get threatened for some kind of punishment. A permissive parent would, like you said, maybe make excuses for them. I'm sorry I upset you.
I didn't mean to say that to you or the kid goes storming up, slams the door and the parent is afraid to follow up and set any boundaries or to say, hey, this is how I want you to talk to me. Instead it's just, it's my fault, I shouldn't have done that. And the kid goes to their room and this whole power dynamic, it looks like the kid quote unquote won and the parent lost, but the parent doesn't want to get big and threaten. So the parent doesn't know what to do. m
Yeah, they don't want to risk the relationship and trying to hold connection, but then never get any more of the pieces. Yeah. So what we want to clarify with the audience, because this, like I said, comes up so many times when we're coaching with parents is, you know, then you just want me to do nothing. You know, so either you're doing something, which means you're threatening and scaring the kid, or you're doing nothing, which means you're just letting the kid do whatever they want. Okay. We are definitely not in the doing, doing nothing category. So we are always going to do something. Yes. Right. But that's something.
doesn't have to do with scaring the kid. The something doesn't have to do with punishing the kid. The something that we are gonna do isn't us using our bigness and our power to control the kid to do what we want them to do. Right. It's not using an external motivator. It's not saying in order to get this, you have to do it or in order to avoid this, you need to do this. So it's not using the carrot or the stick. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (16:19.986)
And I think a lot of times, Sarah, as we move into that other category that I want to explain and really define so they can really, the point of this conversation is to help increase the imagination. Cause I know I had a limited imagination. I only saw the world through these two lenses. And it's to, it's to help them. If you're, if you're a person like stepping away from that control, then you don't want to fall into permissiveness. And so it's these like little here's how to avoid.
falling into the pit of permissiveness and finding yourself way down the road going, wait, I think I've I'm stuck here now. And, it's really easy to do we understand it really well. So we're like, let's talk about this. Let's talk about how we kind of check in. Let's talk about how we keep ourselves from falling into permissiveness or go away. I think I'm being permissive in my attempt to not be controlling I'm being permissive.
So now what, what do I do? Well, definitely you, you, you and I in our, in the heated moments, when we get dysregulated, I will definitely typically lean more authoritarian and I will want to go back to what was done to me, what my dad did with me, which was I want to raise my voice. I want to be intimidating. Um, I don't go to the point of ever threatening punishment or that kind of stuff, but I still will get louder and worried about respect. Those kinds of things will cross my mind. Like how
How are you talking like this? Or what are you doing? But you will lean into the permissiveness sometimes and pulling away, right? And more, they will then do things. And I was like, why are you letting that happen? And I noticed that I get triggered to be more authoritarian when I judge you as being more permissive. And I think that happens with a lot of couples is we feel the need to like, I see a void and I see like, oh, you're not being strong enough. You're being weak. And I now have to come in and be strong.
Yeah. And I'll see you as two controlling and like, need to let them develop and grow and they, yeah, kind of let them have more choice. And so we can fall into, think we're pretty aware of this and we talk a lot about it, but you know, it obviously sets up this, you know, him, her, we're trying to balance each other, which is, you know, then distracts from actually raising the kids. Well, and that's why I think it's so helpful to have this other parenting style, excuse me, that we can really focus on.

Kyle Wester (18:36.404)
And then you and I can go, are we back there? We need to get back there, right? So when you and I have these follow-up conversations, and even with the kids, the kids know this too, we have a vision about how to get, we're going to do something, but the something doesn't have to be I'm controlling you. So you and I are in total agreement that in any of these conflicts, we're gonna do something. Nothing is not an option. We're gonna do something. What is that something gonna be? And how is it gonna get us where we wanna go? So what we're gonna call that, and a lot of circles,
when you hear about these parenting styles, they will call it authoritative parenting. I don't particularly like to use that because I think it's too close to authoritarian, it gets kind of confusing. So there are different terms that you'll hear in culture. So sometimes gentle parenting might be used. And I think it's, you you and I have noticed it's used inappropriately because it's typically when people are using gentle parenting, they're judging it in light of.
permissive parenting. Yeah, general parenting. It's Yeah, and there are some parents who are I feel like I have to just avoid that. Yes. Oh, I can't use that one because people now equate it with permissive parenting. And yeah, it's really not what it is. think but and it could also be called peaceful parenting. Yeah, I like that one. Yeah, I really like loving guidance is also another one. So that's typically the one I lean on because that's kind of I feel like I'm doing. I'm trying to lovingly guide my kids towards a certain direction.
that I think is healthy between us. And it really, if people could think about it, it's really what we wanna do in our marriage. I don't wanna have an authoritarian marriage with you. I don't wanna have a permissive one. I wanna have one where we lovingly guide each other towards a relationship relationship focused, connection focused, it's believing, it's having a value, a really high value for both people involved in how we can come together to do this.
And yes, I even mean with infants. mean, with teenagers, really, it's gonna look different, but it can be done with all ages. know, I think some people think, yeah, we got to be really controlling when they're little, but actually you can still do it with connection and relationship. Yeah. So let's go over these eight characteristics that to us kind of help describe, define, and kind of help. It's a great eight guys. Yeah. So if you've a piece of paper, you've got a pen, take a moment. You want to write these down to kind of...

Kyle Wester (20:47.650)
Keep these in mind. And also what we're going to offer you in the show notes, Sarah's put together a fantastic list of books that helped us understand this better. It's a really great book list for you. Great resources that will all take you to this place. Okay. A lot of books. Yes. We've read all of them and many, many, many more. So it's going to be in the show notes. You can click on that, download that list and reading these is what helped us not only just start imagining it, but actually go, Oh, this is how you put that into practice.
And it will now help you go. Oh, it doesn't have to be this or this it can totally be this other thing Okay, you know how books are it gets into the nitty-gritties if you want an itty-gritty if you really want you can dive into some of these books Yeah, so so number one uh number one characteristic of loving guidance and this what we're calling it is High support and high expectations or you got a high responsiveness high expectation that basically means that we are nurturing and supporting
while also setting clear standards and boundaries. And you'll notice I don't really use the word rules a lot, I really prefer the word boundaries. Rules is about me still kind of controlling your behavior. So we are very clear with our kids about the expectations we have on how we talk to each other, how we treat each other, how we respond to each other. They even keep us accountable to that. Yeah, I was gonna say, and it's for the whole family. It's not a top-down, I can speak however I want, but then you're not.
It's for the whole family. This is how we all function, how we all support each other, how we all act towards each other. Do we do it perfectly? No, we mess up all the time, but that's okay. And what we mean by high support is we have these expectations, but we realize that if our kid isn't meeting those, or even we aren't as a spouse, I just need to support you and help you. You're not doing it on purpose because...
you don't love me or don't care about me. bad person. Because in that moment you either don't know how or don't believe you can or you're just prioritizing something else. We've all been in just that bad space. You you're having a hard day or you're dealing with something or you've been triggered by something. So you're just not acting from your best self. And so it's that belief in the other person that, okay, they're in a hard space. I'm going to come alongside them, but I'm still going to hold this boundary. So let's go back to those examples we gave originally.

Kyle Wester (23:4.366)
So you're asking your child to clean the room. We talked about you could threaten them or do it for them in this model. I would just do it with them. You know, I would say, Hey, could I help you? It looks like the room is the room overwhelming to you? Because I, I thought we agreed that it was going to be done tonight. And it seems like you're having a hard time, right? Would you like me to help you? So initially, I might use it as an opportunity to connect with my kid, you know, to say, Hey, let's do this. Yeah, let's turn on some fun music. You know, maybe they're struggling with making it
actually enjoyable, maybe they're dreading it, maybe they're overwhelmed and they're just confused about how to organize it. Yeah, where do I start? It feels like such a big task and depending on their personality, some might really love organization, but you might have a child who just really doesn't like cleaning. It's not in their wheelhouse and so it's going to be an even tougher skill. So just recognizing who my child is, what stage of development, I don't care if they're 16 or two.
it's different for each kid. So what does my child need in this moment? Not to do it for them, not to let them off, so to speak from the task, but how can we build this skill in them? Yeah. And so that's an example there where we're coming alongside you and you're going to hear us say that a lot. I'm creating this with you. I'm not doing something to you or you doing something to me. We're doing this together.
And I'm seeing all of these opportunities, whether it's the kids storming up and the kids yelled at me, the kids not cleaning the room. These are all opportunities for guidance, for discipleship, for teaching. And without those opportunities, without those conflicts, I wouldn't have a chance to do this. Okay. So that leads me into number two, which is consistent boundaries. know, basically boundaries are clearly communicated and enforced with consistency and not harshness.
You know, so basically, like there is this expectation, once again, this goes back to you and I, there's ways you want me to talk to you. And if I don't talk to you in the way you prefer, you don't come back and threaten to punish me, you come back and you remind me of the boundary. You know, I say like, for instance, the kid does yell at me, the kids, you know, speaks to me in a way I don't like. What I do is I realize they need my help. Like in that moment, they got dysregulated, they got mad, and they took it out on me. And I'm going to come back and I'm going to be calm and I'm going to be composed.

Kyle Wester (25:18.188)
And I'm going to say, Hey, listen, I understand you're mad in the future when you're upset. Can we agree that we won't say things like I hate you? We're not going to say things like shut up. I won't say it to you and I don't want you saying it to me and I can say it really firm, but really kind. And I'm inviting the kid into having a healthier way of communicating or learning a healthy way to communicate with me.
That is, I not only prefer, but I think will help them in the future. Yeah, and you're going to teach it and you're going to practice it. So that support looks like, let's try that again. This is how you can say it. And you're gonna set up a system for your family of how things can be said to each other. It's okay that you're frustrated. People get frustrated with each other. And then, and you have a system of how we express that, what we do about that. Yeah, so the number three is open communication. So we're gonna listen to our child's perspective.
and encourage a back and forth dialogue. know, where the kids are gonna know that their thoughts and opinions matter. And we're gonna have an open dialogue when we screw up too. And we'll own it and we can talk about it. And they can tell us if they don't like how we did something, just like I can tell them when I don't like something they've done, right? And that open communicate, that's just not something I had with my parents growing up. There's things that they didn't like and I knew if I talked about it, I was gonna get more in trouble. So it's like you kind of, you learn not to talk about stuff.
We want there to be an open dialogue about everything. Yeah. And again, even going back to the last one. So if they are frustrated, I actually want my child to tell me if they're frustrated with me and it's not a sign of disrespect. If they're, it's a chance for them to be open because as they grow up, I continually want them to come to me or I'm going to lose relationship. So I want them to be able to tell me when they're upset so we can discuss it just like I want to model that for them.
for all their future relationships. This is what happens when people are disgruntled with each other. They bring it out, they talk about it, they make a plan to go forward with and that's not disrespectful. That's not something, you know, so many times there's this model of kids need to be quiet and listen.

Kyle Wester (27:21.876)
as the parent or caregiver lectures or tells them what to do and the child needs to just shut their mouth and just go look me in the eye and then just go do what I say. But you are losing your child, you're losing the inner workings of their mind and their heart when you do that. You want that communication as uncomfortable as it is, is not a threat to you and your authority and your role in their life. If anything, it will gain respect, it will gain trust, your child will be more open to you. You want communication.
Love that. And then number four, this one was really hard for me. I actually liked the open communication. I liked the ability to talk about stuff, but four was hard. It sounds silly, but emotional support, you know, that you validate emotions, you teach emotional regulation and you model calm responses. Like that was very difficult because that's not how I was raised. A lot of times it was like, feelings were not welcome all the time, sharing your, your feelings, being sad, crying.
You know, all those things are like, oh my gosh, get over that, you know? And so I really had that thought, especially when they were little, it was so silly. Like I didn't see them as little human beings with little brains. They don't know how to do this. They need help. I just saw it as like, how long is this going to last? Let's get over this. I'm tired of all these. crying? Yeah. Are you still crying about, let's get over that. So when you're doing loving guidance, you realize emotions are part of living. That feeling actually adds color to their life.
And so sometimes those feelings are going to be messy and they're not going to know how to handle them just like we don't. And so that us validating them, being there with them to hold them with them, but then also teaching them how to regulate them. That's where the guidance comes in. Right. It's not just a big mess of emotions and we leave it there. No, it is the skill of here's the emotion.
You can handle the emotion. This is what you do with a big feeling. And we know our preschoolers are gonna have really big feelings and our teenagers are bound to have really big feelings. And they're gonna, however you handle it young, when they're teenagers, they're either gonna stuff it and hide it from you or they're gonna feel like they can share it with you. If they're big and messy, you expect that and you go, okay, we need to keep practicing what to do with these big feelings, knowing we can survive them and move through them. It's a normal part of being human. Yeah, that was hard for me, ma'am. That's still sometimes hard. is hard. You get those tracks running of

Kyle Wester (29:36.736)
I couldn't just, you just gotta get over it. You just gotta move on. Sarah, think where the permissiveness was, I was scared of it, is it's like, just feelings gonna rule everything? Like also whatever they feel is just, we just do whatever they feel. And like, that's not what we're saying at all. But that's what I thought you were saying, or some of the authors were saying is just, feelings rule, like we never think anymore. And I think that's what you see in culture sometimes, when you see gentle parenting get a bad rap. It's really permissive parents.
who don't know how to help their kids to regulate their their feelings, because they don't want to regulate their own. And therefore just like feelings are constantly dominating everything. So it's also very uncomfortable if you've come from a space of shutting down feelings, either stuff, whatever it was, how it was done. If you have to shut down the feelings, it's going to be extremely uncomfortable for you to then move into a space with feeling. And it's, can have logic and feelings at the same time. But when you have lived in logic for decades,
even a little bit of feeling will feel really big. It feels irrational. It feels out of control. Okay. So the number five is encouragement of independence. know, like lots of times in permissiveness, there isn't this, um, intentionality about helping the kids be able to be independent in ways that are healthy. Lots of times it's, there is a lot of codependence that happens.
You know, sometimes in the authoritarian model, it's like you're pushing your kids away, like grow up, like learn how to do this. Like if the kid's five and doesn't need you, you're like, yeah, he doesn't need me five years old. Awesome. That's right. Whereas the permissive, Oh no, I want the kid to like, Oh, want to be, I love supporting that kid. to take care of their exactly. It's different than, then it almost merges into this other thing where it's, I'm responsible to make you feel better. You're responsible for my feelings. Some of that gets well, and that's where I really love in this approach. Like,
we're encouraging independence all the time. I remember even when our kids were seven and five around that age, we were supposed to go to a store and in the city we lived in, had a coupon and you picked up these trash bags. And as I came to the store to get these trash bags that the city gave us, Abby was like, can I go in and do this without you? And I was like, yeah, try it. And I just sat in the car and they were in there for five minutes together and they came out with this huge smile on their face holding the trash bags. And I was like,

Kyle Wester (31:55.750)
Yes, you know, and every time we were at Chick-fil-A and they wanted a refill, I'd say, here's how to do it. Like just take the cup, take the look, walk up to them. And at first I did it with them, but I kept telling, I eventually want you to do this on your own because you can. And what that's doing is helping them regulate that anxiety, build that confidence, build that self-esteem. And that's what I really enjoy about that. It's really that scaffolding of it's not, oh, I think sometimes we get anxious our kids won't be independent.
But the, it's really kind of a funny thing as they feel capable, then they want to try these things. But if you haven't taught them what to do with that anxiety, if you haven't scaffold the skills, right? At first I do with you and then you start, know, and then I'm, I'm further away. So then you could look in the window and watch them go get the trash bags, but you didn't need to walk in the store anymore, you know, but it's that scaffolding of building the little skills along the way. And then they feel capable and kids want to have autonomy. want to go in and feel like.
I can handle this moment. it's not that we need to shove them in and hope, you know, it's the scaffolding that happens all along. And then before you know it, they are independent. It's not something we need to be so anxious about because I feel, I hear so much anxiety about, got to my kid independent. I got to make my kid independent. But it actually is a very natural part if you just build the skills. then number six is the use of guidance instead of punishment. know, discipline focuses on actually doing what discipline is, which is discipleship.
It's not about control. So this one's focusing on teaching and guiding and not control and really helping the kid learn the skill, help problem solve the conflict, you know? And so you're seeing every conflict as an opportunity that I'm so glad the kid had this in our house or with us because now I can disciple them, teach them, guide them and say, can I show you a different way to doing that? And I just, I love that instead of punishment is just don't do that again or don't make that mistake again, you know?
and the kid doesn't really learn how to do it better. Right. I love that as just a reframe of how to look at those moments. If you're coming from that mindset, it really helps me stay calm. Yeah. And it helps me look at the problem, you know, or the situation differently through a different lens. And then I'm much more equipped, much more creative when I go in to work with my child to manage the situation. Number seven is warmth and connection. So connection is a huge part of the parenting approach.

Kyle Wester (34:20.332)
You're wanting to build a strong relationship based on mutual trust and respect. I just, and one thing that goes back to what we were saying before of I'm not going to ask you to do anything I'm not first doing. So if I'm asking you to talk this way, I'm going to talk that way. If I don't want you hitting your brother or sister, hitting you, you know, all those kinds of things that I want to really spend a lot of time loving on you, enjoying you, connecting with you. Once again, it works in a marriage.
You want your marriage based on mutual trust and respect. You want to model it to the kids so the kids will grow up someday and have a family and have their marriages based on mutual trust and respect. that's what we're successful, happy, fulfilled relationships have this as a foundation. And as parents, I really do believe we have to do first. Yeah. You know, if I want a calm child, I need to be calm. If I want them to talk to me respectfully, I talk to them respectfully. If I want them to own mistakes, I own mistakes.
And so every step of the way, am I doing this first? Am I doing this? Where am I needing to grow? But all of that, it does start there, but it's this intentional effort to get one-on-one with your kiddos, really getting to know their heart, really spending time enjoying them. Because kids who are enjoyed naturally are more enjoyable. When I see a kid that is hard to enjoy, it's somehow that kid doesn't think they're all that enjoyable.
And that's why you're seeing it so hard for you to enjoy them. And then the last one is fostering internal motivation or intrinsic self-control. Like that's the goal. I love it. Dr. Becky Bailey says, the gift we give to our kids is the gift of self-discipline. The kids know how to, they know the values they wanna live by. They know the ethics, the morals that they wanna live their life by.
And it's, they're not doing it because they're afraid that you're going to do something to them if they don't. They're doing it because it really means something to them. And so this approach emphasizes self-discipline and responsibility rather than obedience for approval. Yeah. I just think that's really beautifully said. You, I think if everyone pauses, of course you want it to come from inside your child. It's that developing of who am I, how do I want to show up in this world? How I want to be in relationship, not based on any external factors.

Kyle Wester (36:38.926)
not based on how other people are acting or treating me or something, but who am I? And I'm gonna act from that space. Yeah, I love it. And so this style, what our goal is, it tends to produce children who are emotionally healthy, confident, have a lot of social skills, and are also academically successful. Because they know how to be able to access the best of them at any given moment, and to be able to show up. They believe they're worthy of love, worthy to be seen.
And that that's awesome. And so, so that that's why we are not fans of permissiveness, right? Now we know everybody is in a journey. It is, it is a long road and that's why we are here. We are here doing the podcast to help you on that journey. That's why Sarah has put together this amazing reading list. Go check that out and definitely get that. And we hope this has helped kind of give you an imagination of what it looks like to get out of those two authoritarian and permissive spaces and to really start.
doing more of a loving guidance approach and have a better understanding of what that could look like. So definitely please share this podcast. This one I think is very important because in our society today, there's a lot of permissiveness going on and it really causes a lot of people to be scared to move out of that authoritarian place. But I want you to know there's another way. So please share it, tell people about And give yourself grace. We're gonna slip into both of these.
Perfection is not the point. Your children are going to be messy. It's not that, by 13, they're going to be, no, it's messy the whole way and that's okay because we're all humans and we're all growing. So we thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great day.

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