Episode 190

Episode 190 Transcript:

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.016)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans, I'm Kyle. Hi there, I am Sarah. And you know Sarah, this podcast that we were doing today, we were thinking of dropping it somewhere around Christmas. Maybe it's gonna do the week of Christmas right after it. And I was trying to think, what do we really want to, what topic would be really helpful to our guests, right, and to our listeners. And so I was thinking that week is probably a week where there's a lot of big feelings, right? There's a lot of interactions, a lot of moments for joy, but a lot of moments for conflict, right, between siblings and parents. ⁓
Great holidays, all that are great and they're very tiring and they stress us as well. Well, and you know, so I was listening to a podcast recently and it was a podcast, there was a guest on it. Her name is Jennifer and she is in charge of an organization, a practice called Connected Parenting. Okay. And so I thought when I heard what she was talking about, I thought she's the guest we want to get on. So I want to say thank you, Jennifer, for joining us today. Welcome.

Jennifer Kolari (0:55.398)
You're welcome, I'm looking forward to it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:57.740)
And Jennifer, how did you get into this? Like, how did you get passionate about helping parents? I know you've got your MSW and you've got some degrees there, but how did this become your thing?

Jennifer Kolari (1:8.838)
That's a really good question. So I've been doing this a long time. I'm old. So I've been this a long time. And when I first finished my undergraduate degree in psychology, I kind of knew that I wanted to do something with families, something with kids. I kind of always known that. But in between doing that in my MSW, I ended up working at a group home for street kids. So these are children who had run away from home, who had

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:11.854)
Okay, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:33.110)
wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (1:36.112)
been sexually abused, traumatized, physically abused. They've been through horrific trauma. They were scooped off the streets. This is back when I lived in Toronto, of downtown Toronto, and put in what's called a receiving home. So this is a home kind of on the edge of the city, away from the downtown, where kids were kind of ⁓ kept there for a little while and then either put in foster homes or more permanent group homes, that type of thing. And I signed up for this thinking, okay, ⁓ green is the grass, but I'm gonna save the world. Let's see how this goes. And boy, we're going in.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:4.149)
Right, yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (2:6.092)
I was in over my head. mean, these kids were amazing, but they were also deeply traumatized. They were savvy. They were smart. They knew things I had no clue about. And we were really trained in this group home to be pretty military with these kids. That was the training we got. You know, control them and, you know, don't turn your back on them and don't give an inch. They'll take a mile.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:8.034)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:20.462)
⁓ Mmm. Yeah control them. Yeah, make sure you get them in under control. Yeah ⁓
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (2:29.156)
And in addition to that, were also instructed, don't get close to these kids because they're not here for very long. And then it's just hard for them that they have to separate again. But they were 11 to 16 years old. So none of this made sense to my heart. None of this. These are kids who've been through hell and back and they're in this home and they're scared and there's only paid people around them to take care of them. So I basically ignored all that. ⁓ Just did. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:34.083)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Wow. Yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:52.621)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (2:53.906)
And I worked on just naturally connecting with these kids. And one of the moments we really tended to connect was around bedtime. So when the jams came on and the makeup came off, and the teddy bears came out and they turned back into children, which they always were, but they were very defended during the day, I would spend some time with them and I'd sit on their beds and I'd rub their backs and I'd tell them bedtime stories and I'd sing them lullabies. And these kids who were so tough and scary during the day would melt into this bedtime routine.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:0.654)
Okay. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:7.362)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (3:23.750)
And what I noticed was the next day when it was time for me to get those kids to do the things I needed them to do, they were much more likely to do it for me. So I was seeing health compliance because of connection, right? And the other staff are like, oh, this is crazy. She's a bleeding heart. They're going to walk all over her. She's going to lose control. Blah,

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:32.088)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:40.066)
That's right. She's a softie. She's enabling them. Yeah, they're going to take advantage of her. Yep. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (3:43.684)
Yeah, exactly all that. And I didn't care because this just felt to my heart. These children need compassion. need empathy, need care. They need to see there's adults in the world who can show understanding and compassion. And I really noticed they were different with me during the day. ⁓ And this is totally an aside, but there was another staff member at the time. This is now like probably 35 years ago, ⁓ who was similar to me, who was kind of working with the kids the same way. ⁓
He's my husband. We met there and we've been married for lot of years. We were in connected parenting together. So we actually met there. And he went off and did the educational road and the administrative route. we circled back to doing counseling together. But anyway, that's just an aside. But there's a very interesting story there that I think really captures the moment. There was one kid who, you we had meetings for weeks before this kid came to the home. She was pretty aggressive. She was violent.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:14.958)
⁓ Awesome! Yes! ⁓ Man! Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (4:39.845)
She punched her social worker in the nose or six foot two male social worker in the nose. So we were like battening down the hatches for this kid. And she ended up being one of the children who really loved this bedtime routine. She just loved it. And I don't think she'd had that anywhere else in her life. So she'd been there about a week and a half. This wild kid was much better behaved when I was around or my husband, who was not my husband at the time, was around.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:42.591)
man.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:5.814)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (5:7.151)
She's only there for about a week and a half and she's getting moved to another setting. ⁓ And the routine at this group home is that you line up on the porch and you wave goodbye to kids who are moving on to a new home. And I'll never forget this. She was walking down with a social worker to the car. She had her hand on the handle of the car. She paused. She turned around. She came running ⁓ up the sidewalk right to me, put her hands on my cheeks, looked right in my eyes and said, want to memorize this face. The face of someone who actually cares about me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:32.974)
Mmm.

Jennifer Kolari (5:36.696)
and then ran back into the car and I never saw her again. But that moment was the moment that connected parenting really kind of started cooking in my head. It's like, this is big, this is what I wanna do, this is where I wanna spend my life and I wanna learn everything I can about the psycho neurobiology, the science, ⁓ the biology of love, right? And the ⁓ superpower that comes from containment. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:45.698)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:54.604)
Yes. ⁓ Mmm. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (6:2.701)
And I'll talk in a little bit about how connected parenting is pretty balanced because we're also, we also talk about how important it is to set loving limits, firm, loving, neutral limits. ⁓ But the basis of it is really about using language and love and communication and words as medicine, powerful medicine to build ⁓ a child up from the inside out. And just another little ⁓ kind of initial client that really started to build the whole idea of connected parenting for me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:9.550)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (6:32.483)
was after I went back, did my master's degree, I'm now working at an agency. I was working in an agency for kids that have learning disabilities, that have behavioral and social emotional issues related to their learning disabilities. And there was a little kid there, ⁓ she wasn't so little, she was about 11, who was one of the, she was wild. Like she would come into the agency and throw all the magazines on the floor, trip people in the waiting room that walked by her. She'd go in the bathroom and stuff the sinks with paper towel and run the water. Like she was just wild.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:56.641)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (7:2.800)
And the history of that child, she had actually been the product of a rape and her mother had decided to keep her. So there was a major, attached, major trauma going on with this mom and this little one. And she used to throw herself down the stairs at the age of four, literally tumble down the stairs, was to get her mother to touch her and talk to her and show some kind of compassion.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:10.669)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:17.698)
me ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (7:24.023)
with great ⁓ appreciation to this mom, she was struggling, but she ⁓ loved her child enough to bring her child to this agency and let another therapist help her and help this child. ⁓ And that was when Connective Parenting was really kind of cooking, but ⁓ this kid used to be really prickly, like one of those kids that like would point out things you didn't even know you didn't like about your teeth are crooked on the bottom and your teeth are, and your legs are skinny and you pronounce that word wrong. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:35.682)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:46.731)
⁓ yeah, yes, yeah, yes. Your breath stinks. Yeah, yeah, ⁓ your breath stinks, yes.

Jennifer Kolari (7:53.318)
⁓ Yeah, I had coping mechanism where I would like deep breathe before I went in the hour room with her because I had to like ⁓ ground myself and I would be late a couple minutes, not even a couple minutes, probably a minute late coming in and she would tear off. I you're an idiot, you're a horrible therapist, you're late every week for me, blah, blah, blah. And I would do...

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:1.228)
Yes. yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (8:15.277)
I would do therapist-y things that I learned to do. I would say, must make you feel very angry. And I'm sure that's very upsetting. And she would blow up. Of course it does, you idiot. Like everything I learned just backfired with this kid. Exactly. And I remember going back to my supervisor and saying, what do I do with this kid? Like, I thought I was compassionate. I thought I had empathy. And this kid is a nightmare. I don't know, like Thursdays anymore. Like ⁓ she's really hard. And she said three things to me. And this is really foundational to connect with parenting. One.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:17.070)
Yes. Yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:25.866)
Exactly. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:39.160)
Yes.

Jennifer Kolari (8:44.377)
You have to go back in that room and you have to show that child something different from what the rest of the world usually shows her. Two, and I'll never forget this, you have to show her ruthless compassion, which really stayed with me. thought, whoa, I'm hearing something big. I don't know how to do that. I don't even know if I want to, but I know I'm something huge. Yes, yes. ⁓ And ⁓ to understand subjectivity and neutrality. Like how can I go in that room and be really neutral?

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:55.758)
Mmm... Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:1.846)
Exactly, Can I? Do I have it in me? ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:11.949)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (9:14.307)
And she taught me about a technique called mirroring, which we're going to talk about today. I'll take people through that with contact. ⁓ And I went back in that room late. You're an idiot. I hate you. F-bombs flying at me. And normally what we do in this, you know, any kind of role with a kid is we're like, that's not very nice. And how would you feel if someone did that to you? And we'd get corrective to which she would just feel what everyone else does in the world with her, which is reject her. And she'd have a whole thing. And this time I didn't do that. I looked at her and I said, you know what? This is your time.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:17.452)
Yes, yeah, yep, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:30.156)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yep. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (9:42.822)
This is your appointment. This is your hour. And I'm late and I was also late last week and I'm pretty sure I was late about three weeks ago. Completely non-defensive, very neutral, very compassionate. And for the first time I could see tears in this kid's eyes. There's a little person under there under all that prickly stuff. And that was the beginning of a huge shift in my work with her. And she'd say things like, your teeth are disgusting. They're crooked on the bottom. I can't listen to you with your teeth right there.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:58.806)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:8.016)
Yeah, yeah, ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (10:9.893)
So instead of saying that's not nice and how do you think you would feel if someone said that to you and what's that touching you that makes you feel like you have to do that to other people? No, I just said, you know what? You have the kind of brain that notices when things are straight and they're lined up and they're where they should be. And you notice when things are out of place. And know what she said? ⁓ your top teeth are really nice though. And now I can work with that, right? So now we start having a little connection. Under that prickliness is a funny.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:24.374)
Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:30.766)
⁓ Yes. Yes. ⁓ Yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (10:37.709)
Sassy interesting hilarious kid. So I looked at the clock and thinking god How was that only ten minutes? ⁓ Right ⁓ and I stand up time would start to fly and then guess what no more tripping people in the waiting room the floods in the bathroom mysteriously And I went back to my supervisor said teach me. What is this? What is this voodoo? What is this superpower? ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:40.546)
Yes. Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:44.866)
Yes, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:54.092)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:58.850)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (11:2.213)
I need to know more about it and I started playing for the next probably 10 years in self-psychology, which is what Connective Parenting is based on. So that is the very long story of how Connective Parenting came

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:3.683)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:8.236)
Yes. Yeah, no, she, feel like she's been in sessions with kids that we've helped do. That sounds just like many of our sessions. So many of your stories, I worked in an agency as well with, with a lot of kids who have been through some really hard things and they can be so hard and then you can love them so much when you, when they let you behind, you know, when they let you in. So, man, I could just relate to you so much in many of those stories.

Jennifer Kolari (11:16.366)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (11:27.301)
Laugh.

Jennifer Kolari (11:32.185)
Yeah.
⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:36.106)
I want to hear more about what you were saying about the brain. You kind of hit upon love and the brain. And if we can, I want to pull on that a little bit and hear more about what you're saying there. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (11:41.986)
Mm-hmm. Of course. Sure. Absolutely. Okay. So that moment when I talked to that little girl and I was, I got non-defensive and I just went for the essence of what I think she wanted me to hear. Because we really just all want to be seen. We want to be seen. We want to feel heard. want people to...
If we can all try to understand before seeking to be understood, we'd be in a very different position with each other, right? So it's that, and that's called attunement. And that's part of self-decolonization, a technique called mirroring, which, and a lot of people think they know what mirroring is. It is not active listening. It's not effective listening, which are great skills. I'm not dissing those skills, but it's not mirroring. Mirroring is something very different. Mirroring is very natural. Most of us know how to do it. We do it beautifully with babies.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:21.486)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kolari (12:33.253)
Nobody picks up a baby and goes, hey, why are you crying? Like you pick up a baby and you go, it bypasses language. So what happens is that moment, those words don't really have much meaning, but the look on your face, the energy in your body really tells that baby that, because they don't have language to mitigate it, bypasses the limbic system, which is safety and security center of the brain as you guys know, and hits.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:36.642)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:57.773)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (12:59.653)
⁓ It ⁓ bypasses the language center and hits the limbic system directly. So there's this, ⁓ there's this calm down. There's this little moment of like, yes, ⁓ right? ⁓ And so most of us know how to do that with a baby. So the example I usually give is let's say about, I don't know, four months old and you're giving them a bath and they're crying and fussing and kicking. ⁓ Nobody looks at the baby and says, this is ridiculous. You're four months old. You're not a bath every night. Nothing bad has ever happened. You're okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:4.942)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:23.554)
Yes. ⁓
Yes.

Jennifer Kolari (13:27.641)
We look at the baby and go, I know you're cold and this towel's scratching. The baby has no clue what you're saying. But the baby sees on your face a perfect representation of what they're feeling inside, which hits the mirror neuron cells in the brain, which then release oxytocin, ⁓ opiates, and natural endorphins, which are powerful reward chemicals that bathe every cell in the body and calm that little baby down, or person. So that's ⁓ the basis of it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:41.580)
Yep. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (13:55.206)
Most of us are pretty good at this, but around the time of language acquisition, we stopped. So now let's think about our four-year-old who's fussing in the bath because they don't want to get out. Now it looks a little different, right? Now it's like, honey, get out of the bath, No, no, honey, get out of the bath, please. Mommy's getting upset. This is not mommy's happy face. This is mommy's angry face. I'm going start counting. One, two, three, three and a half. And then kids running down the hall and you're right.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:1.164)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:10.850)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ That's right. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (14:20.431)
So we really start to shift that. So ⁓ the teaching and some of the foundational stuff is that you always start with connection first. You always connect before you correct. And then probably, I don't know, even with the sassiest of kids, ⁓ usually, I don't know, 90 to 95 % of the time, if you do this ⁓ genuinely and authentically from a place of love, not fear, it will have that chemical response in the brain and the person will calm down, the baby will calm down. So let's say you've got your four-year-old, how would this look? It would look like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:29.858)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (14:49.765)
before coming and saying, okay, you've been in the bath long enough, time to go to bed, we wanna have time for stories. You come in and go, ah, this looks awesome. You put your hand in your water. Oh my gosh, it's the perfect temperature. This is gonna be really hard to get out of this bath. This is complicated. I'm gonna be playing with them. What do you do? It's connected. You're in that moment. You're having that moment with them. This is wildly counterintuitive, because your head is going, I gotta get this kid out of the bath. I got three other kids out of This is ridiculous. I might even hopefully watch a show, maybe.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:57.831)
Yes, yes, ⁓ yeah. ⁓ That's right, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:11.970)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (15:18.285)
after I finish the dishes, right? So we have our own agenda sometimes, but it's taking that agenda and just pausing it. ⁓ Usually after you've done that for a minute, so you've to give yourself enough time to do that. So just a few minutes, honestly, it doesn't take long. Usually the kid goes, okay, I'll get out of the bath. And there you go. ⁓ And it sounds crazy, but it really is like a superpower. It really does work. And I'll have parents often say to me like, I don't have time for that. I don't have time for that. Well, my answer is you don't have time not to.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:34.636)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:39.980)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:48.350)
I know, I know. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (15:48.389)
Because if you don't do it, you're gonna be in the bath till the water's cold, the kid's gonna be splashing you and upset and screaming at you and he misses his bedtime and then he goes...

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:53.602)
Yeah. And it's going to take a lot more time when they're a teenager and you're trying to do the same thing and they've they don't trust it. They don't believe in their own guard. Yeah. Relationship is hurt as well compared to what you were describing. I can feel the warmth and I can feel the wow. You see me. You know that this matters to me and wow that that does.

Jennifer Kolari (16:1.846)
Absolutely.

Jennifer Kolari (16:13.167)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:15.256)
feeling is wonderful when you feel seen and heard and what you value someone else is seeing and valuing for you. ⁓ And Jennifer, I remember when we felt that superpower like I did personally where we would go to Target and the kids were little and I remember the tantrums I used to throw and my parents would not give me something I wanted. ⁓ And I remember the reason why I did that is because I didn't think my parents really understood how much I wanted it, right? And that's why I would throw the tantrum to like leave an impression on them that I want this badly.

Jennifer Kolari (16:42.917)
⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:43.598)
And so I remember we went to Target one time and the kids said, dad, can I get that Lego set? And I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this stuff that I've learned. said, you want that Lego set? That Lego set's awesome. I want that Lego set over there. What other Lego sets do you want? Let's get all the Lego sets you want. Let's put them together. Let's take a picture of each of the Lego sets so we don't forget how badly you want those. Cause I want to remember when it comes to Christmas time. And it was neat to see the kids go, okay, so we're not getting them now? No, okay. So maybe, yeah, no, we're to go and tell mom about them. We're going to show the pictures.

Jennifer Kolari (16:52.069)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:12.854)
and we're gonna talk about how cool they would be to get, but we're not gonna get them right now. And they were like, okay. And it was just so neat that there was never a battle over that. It was just fantastic.

Jennifer Kolari (17:16.613)
Yeah. Amazing. And you got the urgency. Because often it's just about the urgency transfer, right? And back to the brain thing, what's literally happening in the brain is the mirror neuron cells trigger up, somebody gets me. I'm feeling distress, but someone's actually hearing me and seeing me. I don't need to keep sending the message. I don't have to keep hitting the send button because someone actually gets me. So there's an

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:22.988)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (17:43.820)
immediate oxytocin flow and what oxytocin does and oxytocin is a ⁓ hormone slash neurotransmitter is it actually mitigates cortisol. So it regulates and mitigates cortisol. It also does other amazing things. It strengthens the immune system. ⁓ It speeds up neuroplasticity. We want our kids to learn and do well in school. The higher the level of oxytocin, the more they're going to take healthy risks and feel good in school. It's free. You don't need a prescription. ⁓ You don't run out. You can't become addicted to it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:52.299)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:58.243)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:7.758)
Yeah, that's a good. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (18:11.717)
You don't need like some independent insurance party clearing whether you can have it or not. Like it is literally free. It is a free superpower. And the best part of all, because we're talking about parents, is you get the bounce back. So you get that same flow of those same chemicals, which cools and calms down your limbic system, which is really, important. just, oh, sorry, ask the question that I'm going to talk about.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:25.154)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:32.172)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, good. No, you go, Jennifer. Go ahead. Finish. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (18:39.429)
So what I was going say is, and I'm sure your listeners know all about the brain, but just like recap, lobe, right? The part that regulates, organizes, prioritizes, mitigates, switches attention, keeps track of time, knows what I should say and shouldn't say inside, always out of sight, that's frontal lobe. Then we have the midbrain. That's the part that just cares about survival. I don't care about friendships. I don't care about my marriage. I don't care about my job. I don't care about anything. I need to stay alive. I need to stay safe. And it can't tell the difference between not getting a toy and target.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:2.274)
Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (19:9.175)
and a tiger that's chasing you down the street. It is the same thing to the limbic system. It's the frontal lobe that decides what's a real danger and what's not. And so here's the really tricky part of parenting is what I say to ⁓ my parents. ⁓ You're not actually a parent. You're not. You're a substitute frontal lobe. That's you are. ⁓ Your job is to do all those things for that little person because a frontal lobe is not fully formed until kids are about 25.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:26.670)
⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (19:36.675)
Maybe even close to 30 really. And not really up and running until probably 19, if ⁓ we're being really honest. So that's what's exhausting to be a parent sometimes because ⁓ parents say, well, I don't have to say this 50,000 times because you're a substitute friend to love, right? And how you have to do with neutrality and confidence and sturdiness and love.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:36.790)
Yep. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:42.048)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:52.546)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:56.716)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And ⁓ our listeners can't hear the brain stuff enough, because I think so often if you're not looking at it or reading it, it just kind of flies over most people's head. But I know for us, once we learn that stuff too, Jennifer, it helped me really parent from the inside out rather than the outside in. And instead I was like, where are they at in the brain or where am I at in the brain? just ⁓ for all our listeners, we have many podcasts and resources, those kind of things. Go check that out, because it really will change how you see your kids behavior. And I wanted you to speak, Jennifer.

Jennifer Kolari (20:11.749)
⁓ Absolutely.

Jennifer Kolari (20:24.495)
This is.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:25.806)
about how in our culture today, we have a lot of people, know most of our listeners, they wanna get away from using fear and shame and more of these kind of controlling and fear-based techniques. But then many of them slip into what gets a bad rap in society, which is like the gentle parenting kind of mode, where it definitely looks more permissive. And so then they end up doing this like a mixture of being really nice and then getting mad and like.

Jennifer Kolari (20:37.221)
you

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:54.218)
You know going back to punishment stuff and then it's like nice ⁓ and it's it really is like they're in this dichotomous place of it's either that or that and I would love for you when you're talking to your parents How do you describe that other option that that third path that that that is still kind? It is still firm, but it's not you scaring your kid or controlling your kids

Jennifer Kolari (21:3.749)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kolari (21:8.569)
Mm-hmm. Now.

Jennifer Kolari (21:16.771)
No, absolutely. Well, and if you look in politics, in the financial world, like we like to polarize. We swing, we overcorrect, ⁓ and then we fix that and we overcorrect the other way, right? So parenting is no different. ⁓ And you'll even see that polarizing in your own house or when you're working with families. Like one parent is usually the, it's not his fault. He's hungry, he had a bad day, he's really struggling, he's got anxiety, this is really tough, we need to hear what this is about, we need to be really important.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:40.418)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (21:46.470)
compassionate and the other parent is often is ridiculous this kids out of control we need some rules around here and so what ends up happening is you kind of compensate for what you believe is a weakness and the other one's parenting and so the softer parent gets softer because they don't need to be so hard because the other parent's hard and then the harder parent is like harder than they need to be and then what happens is the softer parent no you know gets the cuddly stuff and what's wrong and the needing comfort but then the kids are all running down the hall and not listening when it's time to go to bed

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:58.242)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:5.281)
Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:11.222)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (22:16.493)
And the tougher parent, everybody goes to bed and behaves really nicely, but nobody's telling that parent what's wrong. ⁓ Yeah, so the answer's in the middle. And I'm sure there's other parenting models that do this too, but connective parenting is really about integration. It's about bringing those two things. So what I say to parents is, you're both right. I can settle this argument right now. You are both right. You need to understand what's going on with your child. ⁓ Behavior is never the problem. It's the symptom of the

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:20.972)
Yes, yes, now we see that all the time. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:29.261)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:39.266)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:44.834)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (22:45.989)
⁓ And so start there, always start with connection, always start with that medicine. And then you do need to have like firm, loving, predictable, sensible boundaries because they don't have a frontal lobe. And kids will tell you themselves they want that. If you go out with your kids in Target and you see another kid freaking out and the mother just handing them a toy and you say to your kid, what do you think? They're like, ⁓ that mother should not have done. They'll tell you.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:5.963)
Yeah. Yep.
Yes, right, It's good. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (23:12.033)
They won't remind you, I'm not supposed to have my iPad, you took it away. ⁓ They do, they crave that ⁓ loving, because limits are love too. ⁓ But what happens is either parents polarize in a couple or if you're a single parent or whatever, even if you're in a couple, you swing yourself. So it's like, you're getting angry with your kids for jumping on the couch, right? And then they jump on the couch anyway and you're like, you know what, fine, jump on the couch. I can't, I can't, ⁓ do it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:21.068)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:36.866)
Yeah, that's true. Screw it. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (23:39.654)
find out what happens or you you want a cookie here have a whole box see what happens when you go to the dentist the next time we're tired it's exhausting and I don't think we talk enough about like parents hearts and how hard it is and how overwhelming it is to raise a little person and care so much about them and just be overwhelmed by all the different parents there's so much it's with anything fitness advice nutrition eat this don't eat that this is good for you that's not good head spinning

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:47.404)
Yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:51.832)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:8.108)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (24:9.135)
Right? So part of it is also really taking all that amazing stuff that's out there, but learning how to parent from an aligned place in your center. ⁓ If you're yelling and angry, you're going to feel gross. You are. In the moment, you're going to feel like you're doing something important. But after when you go to bed, you're going to cry yourself to sleep. And you're going to go to bed saying, I don't want to be that parent. I'm not going to yell in the morning. I'm going to be so calm tomorrow. I'm going to be so good. And then 10 minutes into the morning, you're like, get in the car.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:22.606)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:29.784)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:37.442)
Yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (24:38.501)
⁓ And then you feel horrible because you've done all these courses and you've read all these books, like what's wrong with me? So we're back to the brain again. ⁓ So what happens, ⁓ our limbic system as loving and caring as we want to be gets taxed. We get exhausted and kids will push and push and push. Why? Because the limbic system, they're the kind of metaphoric limbic system, they're pushing back on us to feel our limit setting. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:42.190)
⁓ That's right. Yes. ⁓
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:5.825)
Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (25:6.317)
And it is really, really tiring. And with super sassy kids, which kids that are really strong-willed, they're relentless. And a lot of the beautiful stuff you've learned and conferences you go into will absolutely backfire with those kids. Like blow up in your face.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:12.778)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:18.392)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk more about those kids? That's what I you I know why I say that as probably being one of those kids when I was ⁓ so like I tell kids all the time the stories but but obviously I love being that kid I think being that kid has really helped me ⁓ be able to make a lot of great decisions in my life because of that determination but I'd love for you to talk about

Jennifer Kolari (25:25.914)
No!

Jennifer Kolari (25:31.813)
⁓ Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (25:40.260)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (25:44.366)
Absolutely.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:45.486)
⁓ that kid and how I'm sure parents are going to run into that. Yeah, because I hear ⁓ parents be like, this is all great. But you haven't met my kid. ⁓ And I don't even mean to dismiss that. I mean, there are some kids out there. ⁓ Wow, this is hard. And as a parent, you know, when you're exhausted and spent and you've been trying and trying. So yeah, I think everyone would love to hear what about that. Well, in one example, one example, Jennifer, I'll give that I tell parents all the time.

Jennifer Kolari (25:49.413)
⁓ actually.

Jennifer Kolari (25:59.012)
I hear it all the time. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (26:9.805)
Absolutely.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:15.134)
is I knew my parents would tell me no if I went to the store and I wanted a candy bar or something. They typically would say no. ⁓ But I knew the way to get that candy bar, to get that toy I wanted is if my dad got mad at me, if I could push him to get mad enough to slap me, then he would feel bad about that. And then he would take me to the store and buy me almost anything I wanted. So there was many times where I could see him getting upset and he was gonna threaten to spank me. For some reason spanking me didn't bother him as much. But if he smacked me in the face,
he'd feel some shame about that. And then later on he'd say, do you wanna go to the store with me? And I'd say, yeah, let's go to the store. And then we'd go to the store. then I'd be like, hey, do want some candy bar? Do you want that candy bar? They'd go, yeah, dad, thanks, it's great. He wanted to make up for it. So that's where I try to tell parents, I knew what I was doing the whole time. I was just playing a game that they had set up that this was the way to get what I wanted. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on

Jennifer Kolari (26:47.258)
you

Jennifer Kolari (26:56.633)
I mean, ⁓ sure.

Jennifer Kolari (27:6.169)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, sure. And sometimes, you know, we use the word manipulation, but the truth is under that behavior, there's something else. There's like, what do I have to do to be seen? Right? What do I have to do around here to feel that? And also to deal with the really big feelings of not getting something that you really want. Like those are big feelings for kids. And by the way, a thousand times worse now in our culture because of social media and you know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:25.848)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (27:33.104)
quick rewards for everything. okay, so let me kind of give you the definition of gladi. And this is honestly our special. These are our kids. I mean, we work with kids that are anxious and ⁓ we deal with all kinds of families and all kinds of kids, but the kids we work with are the ones who are like, try that, doesn't work. Good luck. Like you have not met my kid. ⁓ And what's interesting is I actually have one of those. ⁓ So I have three kids, they're older now, but my first two were easy peasy. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:47.180)
Yeah. ⁓ It's right. Yes. Yes.
⁓ Hahaha nice yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (28:1.241)
And I'm a parenting expert. I've already written my books by then. I'm like, I really am quite good at this. And then I had Olivia, who's 21 now. ⁓ my God. I tell you, I was like, I'm going to quit. I don't know what I'm doing. This kid is, like she, my husband too. ⁓ When she was about 18 months old. So this is about, we lived in Canada at the time. Canada has a prime minister, not a president. So was 13 months old in her diapers. My mother had been babysitting her.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:6.220)
I'm killing it. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:24.801)
Okay, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (28:30.277)
fully talking ⁓ and she'd been really terrible. don't know what she did. But anyway, my mother said to her, you know what, Olivia, I'm going to call your mommy and daddy because you're just giving me such a hard time and they're going to have something. She put her hands on her hips 18 months and said, I don't care if you call the prime minister and stomped on her. First of all, Canadian kids don't even know there's a prime minister because they watch US TV. So the fact that she doesn't know that is unbelievable. But who thinks that they don't even have to answer to the head of the country, let alone their parents. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:49.646)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:56.920)
That's right. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (28:58.819)
And I literally read my own book three times. I'm not joking when I say that. Like, I really did.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:1.678)
⁓ You're like looking to yourself for wisdom. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (29:5.733)
⁓ But those are our kids like we have parents that have tried everything that everything has blown up and they You know, we're laughing about this But honestly that I have had so many parents in my office in tears like I Love my kid, of course, but I hate them. They're ruining my life They ruin everything we try to do whatever advice people give me blows up in our face. I can't it is so disheartening and exhausting and

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:19.075)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:23.128)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (29:33.264)
heartbreaking from a parent point of view to have a kid like this. And so I'll give you the definition of gladiator because I actually think, this is my theory, they're here to save us all. Okay, so let me just say that. I think that ⁓ we are not going to change this hot mess that we're in as a planet ⁓ without really strong-willed individuals who are, who have enough kind of internal

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:43.512)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (30:0.184)
energy and power to challenge paradigms and to break through things, right? However, they are really hard to parent because you have this huge responsibility. How do you bring this powerful, amazing, intelligent kid who's like, why, why would I do that? You can't make them do that. I'm not doing that. That's stupid. You can't tell them. Like, how do you get a kid like that to not be pushed to the periphery?

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:1.826)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:24.876)
Yeah ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (30:24.975)
right, to have attachment or anxiety issues because you're mad at them all the time or because their siblings are mad at them all the time or whatever. ⁓ So I actually think they are, we need them and they're gonna save us all. But we have a responsibility to parent these kids in a really unique way. And there are absolutely magnificent parenting models that are out there and elements of that will work very well with a child like this. But there's the real piece that has to happen is the neutrality.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:28.556)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (30:54.201)
The compassion for sure. Because what happens is for a lot of these kids, they push back so hard on the world. They have such a massive counter will that they are constantly in a state of opposition and friction with other people in their lives. And some of these kids are absolute nightmares at home, but quite perfect at school. Like that's not unusual for them to be great at school. ⁓ And I'm sure, you you do the same thing that I do when I have a family that comes to me. And if that's the case, I know that it's behavior then.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:54.314)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yep, yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:14.668)
Yep, yep, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:24.108)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (31:24.517)
⁓ If ⁓ they're having trouble everywhere and they're getting kicked out of school and camp and grandma won't take them anymore, then there's usually, and I'm not saying that's a hopeless case, there's still lots you can do, but there's usually something else going on. ⁓ But if they're perfect everywhere else and they're just a nightmare at home, it's behavior. The good news is behavior and the bad news is it's you. It's you. ⁓ So there are really, really important unique ways. So when I start with a family like this,

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:33.550)
⁓ Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:44.862)
Right, yes, yes, yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (31:52.548)
And I have like a whole checklist of like all of these behaviors that you'll see with kids like this. ⁓ And there are favorite kids, I'll be honest. Like I love, we're family's company like this. And I will have families that literally have burned through, I don't know how many therapists, they've got a whole prognosis, they've got so many letters beside the kid's name, they don't know what's going on. Yeah, yeah. And then six months later, they don't meet the criteria anymore. Right? And that is a really important thing. And it sounds

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:54.574)
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:10.690)
They've definitely got ODD. They've definitely got ODD. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:18.338)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (32:22.669)
It's such a heavy thing because you think, God, is it really me? But it's not. It's the dynamic. These kids are so powerful and are so exquisitely sensitive, although the parent would not realize that, ⁓ that they're just walking around wounded all the time. They give a disproportionate response to their siblings or to you any time they don't get something or feel injured or wounded or embarrassed. They have what I call, I call it the burn. I wish we had more time because I'm
I'll also wear that time. ⁓ I call it the burn. So these kids get so ⁓ unbelievably embarrassed, ⁓ mortified. ⁓ The second you tell them something or you call them out and you could do it in the nicest way, honey, please don't put that there. They don't hear that. hear, don't put that there, you idiot. Even that's not what you said. And they will respond as if you said it in anger. They are so ⁓ intensely sensitive to shame.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:51.052)
Yeah, yeah, You're good, you're good. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:20.494)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (33:21.029)
Right? And it drops right through them like a burning feeling. And so they spend a lot of their time trying to avoid that feeling by attacking you first. Right? Or overreacting first. And then they sort of take everything in like you won't buy me that thing or you know, whatever it is with such a deeper wound. And they're also quite aware. Like they can be quite horrible during the day. They're usually
quite ⁓ anxious at night and want you to lie down with them and not leave them. And you're like, you hate me. You tell me all day long how much you hate me. But now I got to lie down beside you and help you go to sleep. Right. And it's because they they know they're loved, but they feel unlovable. Does that make sense? And they know that they've done so many things during the day that make them unlovable that they start literally saying ⁓ it's similar to what you were talking about with your dad and Target. But I think what's happening and I work with so many of them one on one.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:50.200)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:2.754)
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yep.

Jennifer Kolari (34:16.633)
that they feel ⁓ so ⁓ afraid of themselves. I'm gonna blow this. I'm gonna end up blowing this up because I always do and I promised myself I'm not going to, but I always do. So you know what, I'm just gonna pull the plug. I'm just gonna blow it so that at least I know I'm in control. And it's not because mommy and daddy don't love me, it's because I chose to do that thing, right? And it's really confusing for parents. So, so much of it is education around this type of child, this neuro spicy kid. And then holding on and being and

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:21.420)
Hmm... Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:43.382)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (34:46.341)
always connecting before correcting. We'll get into the calm technique because we have to talk about that. That's their medicine. And then setting limits with front loading and neutrality and not a kid like this. you say, okay, well, you you've lost your, I don't know, your video games for the night. They'll blow up the house. They'll start throwing their screaming or whatever. And you have, or the, don't care. I don't care. Take it away. I don't care. I don't care if we ever see it again. And what we do as parents is like, oh yeah, well maybe you'll care if it's for two weeks then. How about that? How about this too?

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:49.719)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:1.794)
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:13.568)
I know, I know, yes, yes.

Jennifer Kolari (35:16.079)
and you end up in this ridiculous power struggle and it has to be more like, you know what, I would hate having that stuff taken away too. I would. You could be mad. ⁓ Be as mad as you need to be. I love you enough for you to be mad at me. It is not okay for you to choose that behavior and because I love you, this is gone and you can make all the noise you want to. I love you, I'm strong enough, I'm gonna show up for you. You will get it back in two days or whatever it is and hold that steady, sturdy stance, which is much harder than it sounds, but.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:36.600)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:45.826)
Yeah. Well, that's what so appealed to me, ⁓ this kind of parenting model of connection first, know, really ⁓ doing the inside out because anytime I heard other type of models that were more based on control.

Jennifer Kolari (35:45.889)
It is the only way.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:2.125)
consequences, love and logic, those type of ones. I would tell Sarah, I'd be like, dude, my parents did that to me. Like, like if you threaten to like, sell my thing to pay for that thing, I just go get something of yours and go sell it. Like you want to do this all day. I have, I have more time than you to think about this. Like I'm in school all day just thinking about it. And you're like off at work thinking about other things. So if you want to get into a power struggle with me, you will lose it. And that's where I think these kids feel that. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (36:9.828)
Good one.

Jennifer Kolari (36:15.461)
⁓ It would blow up.

Jennifer Kolari (36:27.493)
Yeah, and we're part of it. It is, and it's almost a sense of annihilation for them. They are so sensitive and so wounded by things. They feel absolutely like they have to protect themselves. And it's beyond logic. It's primal when they get like that. all those techniques usually, they will work better after you've reestablished connection and things are calmer and there's more trust and the whole system has calmed down. But in the first place, forget it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:48.258)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (36:54.351)
flip side of that, which is like, and I'm not dissing anybody's parenting model, they're beautiful and it's all like gentle stuff, conscious stuff is all lovely, but do that by itself with a gladiator? Good luck. Good luck. It'll work beautifully on your other kids. ⁓ It will spectacularly backfire with your gladiator, right? So it's just a little bit different. They need a little bit more containment and they will test you. They will push back and you have to be able to

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:58.446)
Sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (37:21.689)
Hold steady and sturdy neutrality is the biggest key. You one of the things that I'm working with families that I want to recognize is that this sounds great. I've had a kid like this. So I know, like I would push to my absolute limit where I'm like, my God, ⁓ this kid is going to make me crazy. can't. But the truth is you have to be able to show up that way for them. They need you. If they needed treatment, if they had a horrible cancer, if there was something awful, you would find a way. You would. This is what they need. This is what they need.
And when you get angry, so anger, like really popular parenting technique, yelling, right? We all do it from time to time. It happens. And if it happens once in a while, so what? You're not gonna raise your kid and never get mad. That's not normal. If you always stay calm and never got upset and had the perfect response every time, you're mess them up anyways. Because they're gonna go to work and work, you're gonna yell at them and they're not gonna know what to do, right? So once in a while, of course, it just can't be your primary technique, especially when a bite eater.

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:55.630)
⁓ Yes, yeah, I've ⁓ used it sure ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:9.932)
Yes, yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:17.398)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (38:19.171)
And you have to kind of think like, when have you ever been yelled at or screamed at or balled out and you've gone, ⁓ thank you so much. ⁓ That is exactly what I never, ⁓ no way your limbic system is not gonna let you do that, right? No kid is gonna go, you're right, mom. ⁓ I am lucky to have a brother and I'm gonna share my best toys with him right now. You're not gonna do that. I hate you. You always take his side. You never care about me, right? So ⁓ it is not entirely logical.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:27.318)
Yes, ⁓ I learned my lesson. Thanks. ⁓ Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Exactly. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (38:48.747)
So when I start with a family, unless there's like really aggressive violent or physical behavior, ⁓ the different thing, we start with connection. And it is usually something that is ⁓ the parents, although they love their child deeply, it feels wildly counterintuitive. They also feel very wounded. Their own limbic system is burned so many times by this kid that it just, you know, it feels really hard to do, but you have to do it. ⁓ how much time do I have to talk about the calm technique? That's important. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:53.740)
Yeah, yeah, sure.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:16.206)
⁓ Good. Do it. Go for it. Yeah. Hit it. Yeah. I was going to ask you. Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (39:18.373)
⁓ Okay, so this is where you start. So the con technique, you're going to do four things to deeply attune to your child and you're going to start to understand that the more you do this, it's like a layer of paint that just gets thicker and thicker and thicker. You're building that child up from the inside out and it will feel unbelievably counterintuitive in the beginning. You'll want to do everything else except do this. It's going to feel wrong, but trust me, it's right. And because these kids have such an... ⁓
often have an anxious attachment, not because you don't love them and you haven't showed up for absolutely everything for them, but because they don't trust themselves and they know they're going to get in trouble in five seconds, right? So the first thing you're going to do is you're going to connect. You're going to take your agenda. Don't talk to me that way. Do your homework. Don't treat your brother like that. Whatever it is, you're going to pause it. I promise you get to bring it back. You're a frontal lobe. You have to bring it back. But you start with the connection first. And then the next letter is A. this is, we'll go through an actual scenario.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:13.741)
Yep. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (40:14.191)
The next letter is A, this is affect matching. So this is where the look on your face kind of has to look like the look on their face, right? So if they're, I don't know, sad about their Lego tower falling apart and they're bawling their eyes out, you don't want to come in with this neutral, you know, this is a great opportunity to actually learn about frustration management. Like that's, ⁓ that's not going to work, You want to have like an affect match. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:31.822)
⁓ Yes, yep. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (40:38.157)
L is the part where you're using your words and it's third for a reason because it's not how it's not what you say. It's how you say. Nobody remembers what you say. Remember how you make them feel. I mean, that's just the bottom line, right? So here you can ⁓ paraphrase. You can summarize. You can clarify or you can wonder out loud. And those are the four things that you do when you've done those things weird. So let me walk you through a scenario. Let's pick like a classic ⁓ gladiator scenario. So let's see. Got your little.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:44.290)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:58.604)
Mmm, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (41:6.541)
eight-year-old gladiator kid, they're finally calm for five seconds and you have that thought in your head really, ⁓ things seem to be going fairly well, which means... ⁓ And then of course, about five seconds later, they're throwing things around, they're screaming, they're yelling because they have this amazing tower and now it's in pieces or they were following the book and whatever. And we usually come upstairs in one of two ways, it's apparent. Both ways though we're trying to suppress.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:14.530)
Yeah, everything's great. gonna be a great day today. Yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (41:34.470)
and contain, usually our first agenda. What now? Oh my God, oh my God, I said that again. If I don't fix this, the whole life's gonna be gone. Like we have our own, our child's life flashes before our eyes, our eyes as a parent. But usually we come upstairs either cheerleading, honey, I'm gonna help you, let's see if we can fix it, or, this is ridiculous, we're gonna take this light all away if you can't learn how to handle your toys, my boo.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:34.725)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:46.189)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:52.622)
Yeah. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (41:58.726)
So let's say we come upstairs, very typical way, kids screaming and yelling, we come upstairs and we're like, honey, what happened? What's wrong? What's the matter? ⁓ See the fear in my voice there, right? Yes, my little stupid. ⁓ Yes, yes. And your other child already feels like, ooh, she's scared of me or he's scared of me. And then we start with, well, what happened? Well, this Lego is stupid. All the people at Lego should be fired. It's such a stupid company. They're dumb. This book doesn't work.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:7.786)
Yeah, yeah, the anxiety. can feel the anxiety, yeah.
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Jennifer Kolari (42:24.919)
Well, honey, I'm sure they know what they're doing. I mean, it's their job to work at Lego. Maybe you missed a I didn't miss a step. ⁓ You don't know anything about Lego. So you can see already, like I can keep going, but everything I'm saying ⁓ is not matching, which means that child, and not just a gladiator, any child who's upset, any wife or husband who's upset will do the same thing. They will escalate because you don't get it. And so in that moment, they're like, okay, they're not getting it. So I got to ramp this baby up.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:34.604)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:44.726)
Yep. Yep.

Jennifer Kolari (42:53.541)
I've got to escalate this situation because clearly they're coming in thinking this is an easy problem to solve and I need to convince them that this is not. This is a nightmare and I just built the best thing I've ever built and now it's in pieces and they don't care. Right? So the other way we might come in is with anger. What is going on? Why can't you? I just got your brother in bed and now you're screaming. I hate you and I hate Lego and you never cared about what happens to me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:4.098)
Yeah, yeah, yep.

Jennifer Kolari (43:18.455)
Stop yelling you are waking up your brother. ⁓ If you can't handle them, I'm take these toys, I'm gonna put them in a box, they're going to somebody who actually cares about their toys. Right? So now we go. ⁓ Right. ⁓ So either one of those exhausting relationship breakdown, horrible and tiring for the parent, really tough on the kid who does not have ⁓ as much control over these enormous tsunami feelings that they have. We know as an adult,

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:19.704)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:26.478)
You can treat them with respect. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (43:47.142)
They're not going to remember this in a week. But when they're eight and it's the best thing they've ever built and it's in pieces, they're devastated. And we have to remember as adults, for a lot of kids, luckily, that actually is one of the worst things that's ever happened to them in their entire life. And we have to remember that. So now, how are we going to use the calm technique here? Before you go upstairs, you cannot regulate another human being if you are not regulated yourself. So you have to ground yourself, take a breath.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:2.664)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:10.968)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (44:15.599)
Relax your tongue on your bottom teeth. Relax your shoulders. Take a breath. Think about your cute little chubby baby when they were little. Think about this is a moment in time. I'll get through this. Breathe. ⁓ Ground yourself. Then you go upstairs. And your first thing is to take your agenda. Are you kidding me that this is happening? And put it over here. Walk upstairs and you're gonna go, what's going on? My Lego! Look at it! It's in pieces! I hate the people at Lego. They should be fired! ⁓ my

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:33.763)
Yes.

Jennifer Kolari (44:43.429)
when I was here a minute ago, your tower was like this tall, honey, what happened? It's stupid. ⁓ And so that I can either summarize, and this happened last week when you were doing the helicopter, right? Or I can paraphrase, you're feeling like this is somebody's job to build this toy. And you're pretty good at Lego. So you're having a hard time wondering how these people have this job still, and it's in pieces. I'm not agreeing with that. I don't agree with him, but I'm mirroring him, right? What's happening?

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:46.414)
Yeah, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:53.676)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:59.554)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:6.380)
Yes, yes.
Yeah, yeah, Yes. Yeah, I it.

Jennifer Kolari (45:12.419)
doesn't need to keep hitting the send button. I am releasing oxytocin, opiates, endorphins. I'm taking his brain out of an adrenaline-based response and I'm slowly switching it over to an oxytocin-based response, which often miraculously either turns into tears or can you help me or what should I do or a nice big chest-to-chest hug. It can turn into a completely different moment, right? ⁓ I could also clarify sometimes it's not about the Lego.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:14.637)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (45:41.540)
Sometimes it's about the birthday party they didn't get invited to, right? Or ⁓ whatever happened to them. And so you can mirror the Lego and then say, and you know what, on top of that, this happened on a date when you didn't get invited to that party, right? And now you get softness and now you get tears. Tears, by the way, are always underneath the anchor, always, right? Always. And ⁓ wildly counterintuitive, no part of you is going to feel like this. You're going to want to do the exact opposite.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:44.110)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:1.250)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:9.197)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (46:11.461)
⁓ It is magic. It is ⁓ absolutely stunning. It works ⁓ so well. It'll freak you out. In the times that it doesn't, then the kid is just in a vortex and then they're just spinning. just getting energy out and you're just like, ⁓ I'm here. ⁓ Yep, I'm here. I love you. You know what? I'm sorry your brain's doing this to you. I've got you. I'm here for you. We want to hug. No, get out. I hate you. Okay. I'm right here if you need me. ⁓ in and dart out. Unless they're hitting.

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:14.518)
Yeah, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:23.212)
Yeah, They just needing the vomit at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (46:41.157)
breaking things and that's a different conversation. But if they're just having a fit, give them space. Don't jump in there and try to extinguish the tantrum. Forget it. Don't. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:42.336)
Sure, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:50.156)
Yeah, yeah, so great. Yeah, and that's an example. Over this Christmas break, ⁓ so many parents are going to be experiencing ⁓ with the new the new Legos. They just bought their kids ⁓ and and Sarah and I want to just back up everything you're saying. It is magic and it is so fun. Jennifer, you've experienced it just like Sarah and I when we've been coaching parents and they actually go do this and they'll even say it felt so weird to do it. But then my kid started to cry and then my kid

Jennifer Kolari (46:59.040)
Yes.
So, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:19.980)
gave me a big hug. And then like they actually cleaned up the Legos and they actually said, do you want to build it with me? Cause I'm kind of, I'm kind of tired of doing it by myself. And they're like, wow, was such an amazing connecting moment, you know? And so I really want for all the listeners who are hearing these steps that Jennifer's kind of laying out, I promise you, they do work. It's not just something that we've done with our own kids or she's done with hers, but that we've done with families for the last decade that we've helped do these kinds of things.

Jennifer Kolari (47:47.695)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really powerful.

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:49.356)
Yeah. And I think, yeah, as the parent, have to remember, you know, cause you're, you're tired. You're having a hard time too. But that piece you said in the beginning of, you know, just taking care of yourself and making sure you're in a place to, to show up and do that. ⁓ And, ⁓ and, ⁓ if it, know, you, you were so badly desperately want something to work and you've got to keep going, keep going, keep going. And, and your kid has to learn to trust that you're going to show up that way.
You know, they're kind of expecting the other parent, you know, the other version to show up. course, at any moment. Yeah. You're going to refer back to what you used to do. Yeah. So I think those, you know, holding onto those things and the way you just walked through that is really beautiful. So helpful. And I was thinking, Jennifer too, if we can do that at eight with a Lego, then when they're 16, getting into their first car.
you'll know how to respond to that too, right? Because you hear a lot of stories about that too. Then the kid blows up at the parent and the parent's like, you wrecked the car. And it's like, a much bigger ⁓ thing going on. But if you've learned to do that, then the kid will call you up and say, hey, I wrecked the car. they're not expecting you to flip out on them. They built that trust. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

Jennifer Kolari (48:51.396)
Absolutely.

Jennifer Kolari (48:57.733)
Yeah, yeah, God, this is happening to this party and it's freaking me out. Can you come get me? Right? ⁓ Yeah, it ⁓ really is. When I was sort of developing this, I was thinking like, at first it would ⁓ work better with little kids than teenagers. And it works with both, but honestly, it's teen whispering. There literally is ⁓ no other way to talk to your teenager. It is teen whispering. It's really about approaching your child from a place ⁓ where you want them

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:16.270)
Sure. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Yes, yes. Yes, ⁓ yes. ⁓ Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (49:27.557)
You want to feel like they're understood instead of them understanding you. And you sort of have to sit in this place of like, am I about to say something that I feel like saying? Or am I about to say something that my child needs to hear? And those are usually two very different things. And then super quick, because this is important. You're not going to do this perfectly. It's impossible. Like, we're human. We're going to lose it. And so when you lose it, you go back and you say, I blew that.

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:29.548)
Yeah, completely. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:40.962)
Yeah, yeah, dude. ⁓
⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:52.611)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kolari (49:52.837)
You were trying to tell me how much you didn't want to wear your raincoat today and I just didn't have time for it and it was bunchy and hot and I missed the boat on that and I love you and I missed that and I'm sorry. You can always repair and that gives you a chance to come up with a really good mirroring, a couple of mirroring statements after the fact, right? And you don't have to lie your head down and do a therapy session. Like it's two or three statements is enough to kind of bring them down calmly and...

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:6.915)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:14.351)
That's right, yes, yes, ⁓ yes. ⁓

Jennifer Kolari (50:20.163)
you will be shocked how little of this can actually make a huge difference really fast.

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:23.340)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, huge. ⁓ so Jennifer, if our listeners are like, man, I want to know more about how to ⁓ hear about her work and read about her work, how can they find you?

Jennifer Kolari (50:33.573)
So then go to connecttoparenting.com. all kinds of, I have all kinds of information and my books are on there. My podcast is on there. We have a whole team too. I have an office in Toronto and one in San Diego. We also work with parents from all over the world. And yeah, everything's on there. We've got Connected Parenting, How to Raise a Great Kid and You're Ruining My Life, which is the book about teenagers. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:44.302)
⁓ That's great. Yeah, tell them about your books real quick. So you've got the what are the two books so they know about those?

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:57.260)
Yes, yes, and both those can be found I'm sure on Amazon and all that kind of stuff as well. ⁓ Well, Jennifer, we thank you so much for sharing your insight and wisdom to our audience. And I know it's going to really help and encourage a lot of families over the Christmas season. So ⁓ thank you for taking the time.

Jennifer Kolari (51:0.579)
I was nine. Yep. ⁓ Absolutely. ⁓ great.

Jennifer Kolari (51:13.145)
You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Kyle And Sara Wester (51:15.672)
Goodbye.