Episode 198

Kyle Wester (0:0.984)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. And typically you'd hear my wife, Sarah chime in there, but this is one of the few ⁓ podcast episodes. I'm doing it solo and I'm doing it solo because I want to talk about some dad stuff. I want to dive in deep to what it's like being a father in 2026. I ⁓ want to dive in deeps to topics like alpha males and beta males and
Can dads cry with their kids or is that a wussy thing to do? All that kind of stuff. And so when I was interested in this topic, I thought who better to bring on this show than Kirk Martin from the Celebrate Calm podcast. And if you've not checked that out, go check it out today. Cause it's awesome. He's amazing. He's currently killing it on Instagram with over a million stinking followers on Instagram. He's growing every day on Facebook. I saw today you have over a half a million on there. It's ridiculous.
ridiculous and every day he's given you such great nuggets ⁓ about how to parent kids ⁓ that are going through difficult struggles, but even more so what we resonate on is how our kids and their issues can transform us as as parents but specifically dads. So then I was like, I don't want to just talk to Kirk because I've already heard him. I want to talk to his son Casey too. So today you've got a special treat where you're going to get to talk to hear Casey.
and his dad talked together about this journey that I know so many of you are on. If you're listening to so many of you on this journey about what is going on with my kid and how do I change it? And you still haven't yet maybe seen the power of when you stop trying to change your kid, you actually allow your kid to start to change you. And that's what your kid is hoping will happen. They don't want their issues to cause your life to suck. They want their issues to be able to be loved and embraced by you. So.
Welcome Kirk and Casey Mark.

Kirk (1:58.004)
Kyle, this is awesome. We're excited about this. Thanks for having

Kyle Wester (2:0.748)
Yes, I'm glad you're on. Well, if you could kind of just, ⁓ I know you gave a ⁓ little tidbit before Kirk about what the story was like about how you had this son, Casey, you're how old now?

Kirk (2:13.235)
I'm 32 now. ⁓

Kyle Wester (2:14.540)
That's what I thought. I thought 32. ⁓ many years ago, Casey, I actually want to hear from you because I remember he was telling me, at least what I remember from listening to ⁓ the stuff he's put out there, I think you were like eight or something and like, ⁓ were just like getting in trouble at school all the time. And what was going on? What was your problem? ⁓

Kirk (2:33.450)
⁓ I was just a very intense kid and now I'm an intense adult, but hopefully I've learned how to rein that in a little bit. ⁓ Yeah, it was around the eight to 10 time period that I was just getting in trouble with teachers, couldn't sit still in class, always had to be moving. And then I'd get home and pick arguments with my dad, ⁓ especially ⁓ because he didn't understand me for some reason.

Kyle Wester (2:41.774)
you

Kirk (3:3.466)
⁓ and yeah. no, I under, you know what? I understood him. It was just ⁓ looking at his struggles was triggering me because I had the same struggles. So it was immediately like, why don't I want to see my son making the same mistakes I did or struggling with the same things. So I was, I think you said this before, Kyle. I think I was trying to change myself by changing him in a way, if that makes sense.

Kyle Wester (3:19.298)
Yes, yeah.

Kyle Wester (3:27.822)
⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you wanted to feel like what I've struggled with Kirk in a similar way is ⁓ I want them to succeed so I don't feel like a failure, you know? And so when ⁓ I'm looking at these space, it almost seems it's weird, but it does seem almost easier to try to make you successful in ways I can't seem to make myself successful. You know what? Yeah. ⁓

Kirk (3:39.722)
Yeah, it's big and

Kirk (3:51.688)
Yeah, yeah, very true. I think it's our natural impulses to change other people, right? Like nobody wakes up like...

Kyle Wester (3:56.994)
Yeah, well, I think that external that external control almost seems easier than the internal one. And that's also because no one ever showed us it. Right. Like, I mean, ⁓ I know you didn't have that model Kirk for you. You didn't see a dad learning to control himself and then teaching you to do it. It was more let's control the kid because he seems easier to control.

Kirk (4:17.066)
Yeah, was always the real meaning was always, need you to behave because if you don't behave and do exactly what I tell you to do, I'm not sure I can behave. And so I'm putting that like on a six year old, eight year old, 10 year old kid of like, need to, you need, it's always like, you need to calm down. And Casey was always like, you're 35, you haven't figured that out yet, right? Like, yeah.

Kyle Wester (4:27.244)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (4:40.534)
Yes. ⁓ Well, ⁓ I remember Casey, there was, when my kids were playing soccer, something I, like a painful memory I have from soccer is my dad coached my team. ⁓ And there was times where I'd look over and it seemed like most of the time my dad was really disappointed in me. Like whatever I was doing was not good enough for him. And so I remember that led to, you're not getting any ice cream afterwards. You see how you played, you know, those kinds of things would happen. And then when my oldest was playing soccer at about the same age I did,
I found myself getting mad at her because she was making me become like my dad. know, like, like, like, like if she just played a good game, Hey, I could be a great dad. But like when you're out there not listening to the coach, you're not feeling like, you see what I've become? I don't want to be this person yet. You keep making me become this person. I was like, this is the weirdest, stupidest thing to be thinking, but it made perfect sense in the moment that she was forming me into my father. And I was just

Kirk (5:15.591)
Ooh.

Kirk (5:38.090)
I'm actually curious, ⁓ like, is that something that you did too? Because I played hockey growing up ⁓ and like, ⁓ my two memories were my dad in the stands shaking his head in disappointment. So I'd look up and I'd like, no, I wasn't playing well. And then he'd just be up there shaking his head, which is like devastating for a kid. ⁓ And then the other one was like, ⁓ wasn't, I was high energy, but I wasn't super competitive when I was young.

Kyle Wester (5:44.568)
It's okay.

Kyle Wester (5:54.670)
Thank
Yes, yes.

Kirk (6:5.970)
I've gotten more competitive with age, but he'd be up there and because hockey is a pretty violent sport, he'd be like, hit him, hit him. ⁓ And I'm like, wow. You know, Kyle, ⁓ that was probably when I finally changed because it was such an intense atmosphere and two things were going on. ⁓ I ⁓ finally realized Casey just was not like I was a competitive athlete as a kid. So I wanted him to be. I was like, that's what you do.

Kyle Wester (6:11.928)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (6:21.432)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (6:31.928)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. Me too. ⁓ Yep.

Kirk (6:35.432)
And I remember where we were. was actually the south end of the ice rink in Ashburn, Virginia. And I realized that's not who my son is. And one of the other big insights really was, especially with strong will kids or when we're trying to pressure them, they won't play on our playing field. ⁓ think what, so all of Casey's interests are things that I'm not good at. Cause I didn't really play hockey. He skis, he learned how to fly an airplane. have a fear of flying. So he's a jerk like that. But I think.

Kyle Wester (6:49.409)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (6:56.514)
Hahaha! ⁓

Kyle Wester (7:2.262)
Wow. ⁓

Kirk (7:4.852)
But I think what it was is he can now own that space. ⁓ I can't tell him what to do with ski mountaineering, right? So he's the expert in that. And I think that happens with a lot of strong will kids. And then when we put pressure on them, because they don't have the maturity to say, look, I'm never gonna live up to your expectations. I'm always going to feel like a failure. So then they just shut down and they choose something else, which is in a way brilliant.

Kyle Wester (7:10.018)
Yeah.
Mm. ⁓ Mm. Yeah. That's good.

Kyle Wester (7:26.124)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (7:32.514)
Yeah. ⁓ I know. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (7:34.472)
of the job, right? But I think that's what's going on. I've never thought about this before. Is that why I hated baseball? Like, well, because I was bad at it. ⁓ It's not ADHD. ⁓

Kyle Wester (7:46.286)
⁓ Yeah, ⁓ yeah, yeah. ⁓ I wonder if Casey I love that insight you had as I was telling that story because I'm thinking, you know, what that translated into with my middle kid, as he started playing soccer, he was doing exactly what I wanted his sister to do. He was more focused. He would listen to what I was saying, whereas my oldest daughter would say she's listening and I think she was but then she'd go off and do none of it. But my son was so he cared so much.
about what I was saying, that then he would get completely distracted during the game because he'd be looking over at me and I literally had to walk away several times. like, stop looking at me. Don't listen to what I'm saying. ⁓ I was like, I'd say to my wife, I have to leave the field. I have to leave the, I do not want him looking at me anymore. Cause he kept looking at me, dad, what are you saying? Dad, what do want me to do? Yes. it was weird.

Kirk (8:36.676)
What am I supposed to do? I never had that problem with Casey. He was never like, Hey, what do want me to do, dad? ⁓

Kyle Wester (8:42.478)
⁓ Yes, now both of you have been diagnosed with ADHD. Both of you share this similar kind of struggle ⁓ with attention, right? So I'm curious about how that has played a role, because I know a lot of parents when I'm coaching them, you you'll have, ⁓ I think a great opportunity. Well, see a dad has ADHD and his son has ADHD and mom is struggling to help that kid, but it's hard to kind of really understand how to help him because she doesn't understand how his brain works.
And then dad, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to connect and better understand his son, it becomes an opportunity to judge him and criticize him and be upset that he's not doing it better than his dad did, right? So I wonder how that specific struggle has played a role in your relationship.

Kirk (9:28.692)
I'll do that one. So I think when I embraced that and I was like, like when he would, Casey would walk into a room, there'd be like a little glimmer in his eye. And I was like, I know he's going for a reaction. So of course he goes right after his mom. And I'm like over on the other side of the room, like, ⁓ no, ⁓ don't, ⁓ don't feed it. And it was like, he would go and just provoke her and then look at me. Like that was easy. And so,
because he had practiced on me for so many years and I'd always, he was skilled. And so I eventually had to one, apologize to him and say, hey, case, I apologize for the first whatever 12 years of your life. Every time you tried to push my buttons, I reacted. And what I told you is the way to get my intense emotional engagement. Cause I think that's what kids want. They don't want your attention. They want our intense engagement. And so every time you want my intense engagement,

Kyle Wester (9:58.464)
Yes, yes. yeah, got really skilled at it. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (10:19.406)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (10:26.302)
You just do something wrong because now I put everything down. What were you thinking? How many times? And so all that intensity was feeding him. And so when I finally figured that out and to this day, Casey and I are both intense. So now I can teach him, hey, instead of getting intensity from ⁓ gambling ⁓ or things that can mess you up, well, go ski. So you're not a jerk. So, then he just tells me not to hit trees, which is his great advice. ⁓

Kyle Wester (10:49.046)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kirk (10:55.690)
It's advice. Only a treat. I think a huge thing for me is learning like, ⁓ can I get that intensity in healthy ways rather than just, I mean, I'm married now, I got married a year and a half ago, and thank you. And it's like, it's a challenge because I still, you know, I'll do things to provoke her for a reaction too, which is not great, I've learned. ⁓

Kyle Wester (10:57.176)
Brilliant.

Kyle Wester (11:11.234)
Yep. congratulations. It's awesome. Yeah.

Kirk (11:24.488)
So it's just figuring out way outlets for that intensity, which for me is a lot of ⁓ physical exercise and doing ⁓ things. I think this is probably true for most people who struggle with ADHD. Like you want to be fully immersed in an experience. That's the only time you feel full focus. It's like I'm climbing up a mountain and I have to make the next step properly because otherwise there are consequences.

Kyle Wester (11:41.112)
Yeah. Yeah. It's good.

Kyle Wester (11:50.774)
Yes. Yeah.

Kirk (11:51.102)
So you're fully engaged. That's when your mind is fully focused. But then it's when there are all these other options of things to think about. Like you're working from home and you're like, well, I could go do the dishes. I could like do my laundry. I could work on this email, but whoa, that news story is way more interesting. It's like, yeah. You know, we learned ⁓ another one was that I learned was managing your energy, not your time as an ADHD person that we're not linear people.

Kyle Wester (11:53.730)
Yeah ⁓

Kyle Wester (12:8.834)
Yes, yes, yeah, that's good.

Kyle Wester (12:16.750)
⁓ Okay. Yeah.

Kirk (12:19.208)
So Casey is really good at recognizing, okay, I'm locked in, I'm focused, I'm going to do a lot of thinking work today. This is huge for me. It's like, I recognize that mornings, I have to protect my mornings because it's the only time that I'm truly ⁓ focused and can do harder thinking work. ⁓ so protecting mornings is huge. And then, okay, afternoons, I can just go with appointments or phone calls or.

Kyle Wester (12:26.850)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (12:47.614)
kind of easy emails, things like that, but really protecting the morning hours. ⁓ But that's something we learned together in a way. And then the flip side is we're both intense, so we can trigger each other ⁓ really quickly. And a lot of times if I'm struggling with anxiety, if Casey's not around, I handle it fine. If he's ⁓ nearby,

Kyle Wester (12:49.378)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (12:57.927)
huh.

Kyle Wester (13:12.942)
Mm.

Kirk (13:15.620)
I often get triggered more and then we go back at each other with things I can't say on your podcast. We do handle it very quickly. It's done in like 30 seconds, but it's like, yeah. Maybe you'd probably have some things to add to this because it also triggers that like pre-change dad memory of like before when I was like eight years old and my dad would just absolutely lose it. It takes me back. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle Wester (13:18.103)
Okay.

Kyle Wester (13:22.284)
Ha!
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that's. ⁓

Kyle Wester (13:33.218)
Yes. Yes.

Kyle Wester (13:37.862)
Yes. Well, no, no, and that's what I want to hear from you guys. Cause that, yeah, cause that's a big thing Casey is so many of these dads when they finally do realize and even the moms as well, their kids are about your age, maybe like eight to 10. And they'll, they'll be like, man, is this too late? You know, did I, have I messed it up too much? You know? And, so I'm wondering what, what was, I'd love to hear how that went from both of your sides, right? Cause you're at, you're a little kid watching this and lots of these kids will be like,
I'll wait to see, I'll wait to see. I'm not gonna fully trust this and truly believe this. It's gonna take some time to buy this. And then that sometimes makes the parent just give up. Cause they're like, I've been trying for two months, it isn't working. ⁓ And I'll be like, no, the kid is trying, he doesn't trust it yet. ⁓ So I'd love to hear how that went for you guys.

Kirk (14:23.272)
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some initial skepticism because you've got, you know, the prior eight years of my dad reacting this way every single time this happens. So yeah, there's some shock of like, why is he doing this differently? ⁓ but the other thing I'd have to say is, know, you have eight years, only a few of those were really conscious. ⁓ so you don't have a lot of like, ⁓ I feel like the kids can kind of change and learn to trust a little faster. ⁓

Kyle Wester (14:27.030)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (14:45.591)
Yeah.

Kirk (14:52.638)
process for the adult. And now I recognize this, like I didn't recognize this when I was 10. I wasn't like, ⁓ wow, my dad is making these great changes. And he's working so hard to break the patterns from his father who yelled at him and hit him and like, ⁓ you know, sorry. ⁓ But like, you don't recognize that. But now as an adult realizing, like, there's a lot of gratitude there now, because ⁓ now I can understand, okay, you really actually had to

Kyle Wester (15:2.574)
That's right. ⁓
Yes. ⁓

Kyle Wester (15:18.125)
Mm.

Kirk (15:22.058)
work at this. But circling back, no, don't think I mean, 10 is absolutely not too late. 12 is not too late. 14 is not too late. 16.

Kyle Wester (15:23.395)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (15:30.604)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (15:38.958)
⁓ Yeah,

Kirk (15:40.154)
No, but I feel like kids respond pretty, we'll be skeptical and we'll also like push and test. I feel like I would do things, I feel like I ramped it up more ⁓ at first because I was like, ooh, are you really actually gonna stay calm here or are you gonna lose it like you always have? ⁓

Kyle Wester (15:48.990)
Yes, yes, would. Yes. ⁓ What way in Kirk? I want to hear your response, but Casey, I think kids do that because we're asking like going, but you said the kid will believe that like the kid does. ⁓ I can't remember how you worded it, but the way I was thinking like kids ⁓ want ⁓ so badly to have a safe, trusting relationship with their parents. They want it even more than the parent does because their life depends on.
You know, there's something in them that says, I can't fully be successful in this life with a broken relationship with you. It's going to be very hard. So like, I'm just going to be much more myself fully if we're in a good space, right? And I remember Casey even looking back at my, some of the stuff that I do with my kids today, the activities as I've reflected upon it, even though my dad and I definitely butted heads a lot and I definitely was closer to my mom than more than my dad. ⁓ Most of the activities that I share with my kids,
whether it's watching Star Wars movies or going to our local soccer, professional soccer team here, they're activities when my dad was happy, when my dad felt joy. And so I think about that like, I think as a kid, when your parent is actually in a good place and they actually feel joy, it allows you as a kid to just, whew, okay, cool. I don't have to worry about anything. I can just be a kid. I can just have fun, you know?
And so I think the kid wants it so badly. And so you see it as like an eight year old, a 10 year old by then they're, they're not so jaded yet. They still believe that redemption and change is possible. Right. And so, so I think they will though, rightly so not only be skeptical, but maybe go, I'm going to give this a little push because I know if I start to believe, and I don't know if you've ever felt this way, Casey, but I've had some kids who will start to believe.
and then the parent goes back to some of their old habits. And then the kid feels like they've just been sucker punched. You know, they feel like I was a fool. Why did I believe he could change?

Kirk (17:54.378)
Yeah, that would be really hard. I didn't personally share that. ⁓

Kyle Wester (17:57.678)
Yeah, no, your dad made a change and he started going that direction. What was, was, go ahead, Casey.

Kirk (18:1.898)
⁓ no, go ahead, sorry.

Kyle Wester (18:5.986)
Well, was thinking, Kurt, what was the hardest thing in that when you look back to that? I know a lot of dads who are thinking, man, ⁓ I want to make this change, but ⁓ what was the hardest thing for you to change? Like if you broke that down, if you remember those first few years, ⁓ what was the thing you were most focused on? Transition. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kirk (18:22.826)
⁓ I think it was just, was that instant reactivity that was always there. So I began doing really simple things. ⁓ Sit down. It's really hard to yell at kids or anyone else when you're sitting down. You just feel stupid. And then I started just, instead of yelling, I actually, the shortcut that I teach with guys is do the opposite of what you're doing now. If you're marching into a room, we'll go in and sit. If you're lecturing all the time, ask questions. And then I use a lot with guys.

Kyle Wester (18:31.522)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (18:47.638)
Mmm. ⁓ Mmm.

Kirk (18:52.026)
analogies of like ⁓ in your corporate office right like sales are down you don't go around like what have you been doing all day sales are down you're gonna get fired that's kind of how we dad at times but you're like okay sales are down what's going on what's our action plan and it's almost talking to your kids in a problem-solving way that we're actually good like some of these things Kyle I think men are actually I don't want say but we have

Kyle Wester (18:56.524)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (19:2.156)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Yep. Yeah. ⁓

Kirk (19:21.064)
That even matter of fact tone that I use a lot with strong will kids, ⁓ do that very well. That's how we live our lives. And our natural thing in work, I use the quarterback analogy, right? A good quarterback isn't like, you guys keep running the wrong route and fumbling, let's go score. That's kind of what we do ⁓ in our guy world at work. We're one way. And then we walk through the front of the door, there's Legos on the floor and people are having emotions. And then we freak out and start yelling.

Kyle Wester (19:24.802)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Kyle Wester (19:36.780)
That's right. That's right. Yes.
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (19:50.606)
⁓ Yes.

Kirk (19:51.466)
So it's almost like come home, walk through the front door and then act like you do at work. Because ⁓ if you have a young colleague that's messing up, you're not like, you know what, screw up again, you're done. You can do that. Or you pull them aside and say, look, I've seen some good work from you. You've got promise. That last project, not that great. So let's go for a walk and I'll show you how to do it differently next time. And see,

Kyle Wester (19:54.467)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (19:58.029)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (20:5.100)
Yeah, yeah, yep.

Kyle Wester (20:13.773)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (20:17.334)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (20:19.978)
That's where guys get tripped up, I think, because they're like in modern days, like, well, do I have to talk like my wife talks to the kids? I was like, no, you can talk like a guy. You can talk like a quarterback. Hey, we're going to march on the field. And I think that helps. And one other thing that when I work with men, especially is chain, focus on changing yourself, but don't try to change the relationship. Right? Because then it's like,

Kyle Wester (20:26.848)
Yes, I know, know. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ That's right. Yep.

Kyle Wester (20:45.410)
Yeah, that's good.

Kirk (20:47.412)
Hey, I'm really sorry, buddy. Hey, am I doing better? And then it puts pressure on the child. ⁓ Yes, now it's like, hey, make me, aren't I doing better, son? Instead it's like, no, if you truly change yourself, your kids are gonna know, because they have a really strong BS. ⁓

Kyle Wester (20:50.720)
Yes. Yes. Yes. To make you feel better. Yeah. Yes.

Kyle Wester (21:6.926)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you say that, makes me think of early on when I was the first thing I wanted to change Kirk with, was going to do different than my dad is I was going to own my crap. So if I messed up, I'm going to come say, Hey, I didn't talk to you the way I want you to talk to me. Um, I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? Right. So was getting pretty good at that, but that was happening probably daily for several weeks. And I remember my oldest who is just, she does have a good BS meter is my oldest. Hey dad.
I really appreciate that you're so good at coming back and saying you're sorry and why don't you just change? Why don't you just change? know. She's like, of this thing you're doing seems to be shifting any of it. if the goal is to not keep yelling at me and reacting constantly, why don't you just do that? And I was like, dang it. She's so right. I thought me just saying I'm sorry would make a change, but it's like, yeah.

Kirk (21:43.690)
Yes. ⁓

Kirk (22:3.230)
We could actually, ⁓ go ahead. ⁓ I will say though, I do feel like, ⁓ I totally get that. And also I do think it made a difference that when, ⁓ the recovering faster kind of idea where it's like, you know, I did lose it today and I'm sorry. And like owning that is very powerful because ⁓ that is also some sort of growth and recovery as well. Like we learn to trust you through that ⁓ also.

Kyle Wester (22:17.772)
Yes. Yes.

Kyle Wester (22:23.884)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (22:29.740)
Yeah, you're right. That's good. Yeah, that's good.

Kirk (22:32.916)
So that's something, I mean, you did that where you'd lose it on day three because I didn't clean properly or left a Mohawk strip in the grass or something when I mowed it. ⁓ So ⁓ the recovery is important too and that's another way to build trust, I think. Ooh, that's good.

Kyle Wester (22:50.606)
⁓ Yeah, what Casey, can you tell me I love that because a lot of ⁓ as I'm thinking of a lot of boys in particular, but girls with this too, but boys in particular when dads, I'll tell them a big part of changing this is you gotta be doing the follow up. Like you gotta follow up with your kid after there's been a conflict, there's been a big blow up. If you don't come back and like reconnect about it and learn from it, just like in a work ⁓ business way, you're gonna keep repeating it. Like you gotta come back and learn from it, right?
but so many kids in your case when they're eight, nine, 10, they don't wanna do it. Like so parents say, he won't do it. He won't follow up with me. He won't have a discussion about it. So how did that eventually, was that a problem initially when dad was changing? Like he's wanting to talk about this. He's trying to make changes, but then you were resistant at all to him having those discussions with you.

Kirk (23:38.730)
I don't think so. mean, I ⁓ could be wrong. don't think I was so relieved that I wasn't yelling at him. It was like, good, right? Like, it's kind of like, and plus it was kind of, you know, at that time, it wasn't that advanced. So it's like, hey, sorry, case should be yelled at you. my own anxiety. And then I went off, right? But ⁓ that's fine, right? Like, it doesn't have to be like, let's sit down and read go through because that's like, please.

Kyle Wester (23:40.654)
Okay.

Kyle Wester (23:45.443)
⁓ I see. Yes.

Kyle Wester (23:53.622)
Okay. Okay.

Kyle Wester (24:0.101)
Okay, yes. Yes.
Yes.

Kirk (24:7.998)
Like your older daughter would be like, dad, I already get it. Like we don't need to deconstruct for 20 minutes just because you're a therapist. That doesn't, ⁓ know, some, some kids are resistant to, like compliments and ⁓ he had this idea of like drive by praise where you like just quickly say like, Hey, good job on that today. And then you walk out of the room because it takes the pressure off of the child to respond in a certain way. And I think you're kind of the same with, with.

Kyle Wester (24:11.244)
Yes. Yes. ⁓ Yes. Yes. Yes. ⁓
Yes. Yes.

Kyle Wester (24:24.502)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓
⁓ Yeah. Yes. ⁓ That's good. ⁓ I see that. Yeah. That's so good.

Kirk (24:36.614)
and stuff like that. ⁓ And he was very good about that. It's like, hey, let's go shoot the basketball for a few minutes. Let's go play catch. And then he says, I'm sorry, in the midst of that. And then we just go do something else and change the topic. Like that's enough. I think if parents really have to let go of the idea that they're going to get a response from their child that they like. ⁓

Kyle Wester (24:50.744)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (24:57.472)
Yeah, that's so good. Well, or somehow, yeah, like it's gonna solve the issue or the kids gonna show this deep inside. Yeah, well, to that point, Casey, I just had a kid in my office ⁓ a few weeks ago, and he's very resistant to having any kind of follow up. So I'm trying to figure out what it is. So I'm talking with him. And he's just like, they're boring. ⁓ Like, it's boring. And it goes on forever. So I said, Well, do they I don't like they have to be boring. Like, let's try this. And I have like a little basketball thing that can hang up on my door in my office. I'm like,
How about you and I play basketball against each other, see who's better, and we'll talk about it while we do it. And so like he's shooting and I was just like, hey, the other day, it seems like you had a big issue. you made it awesome. How did you feel that went with your parents? You know, and he'd be well, I didn't like how they did. that's great. What if they had done this? You know, and we're just shooting the hoops as we're doing it, we're competing. Yeah. And then I said, how did that go? And he said, I liked it. That was kind of fun. ⁓ so, ⁓ yes, yeah, yeah.

Kirk (25:46.290)
Way better. ⁓

Kirk (25:51.632)
We do a lot with no eye contact, ⁓ playing catch, building with Legos on the floor with little kids, because then you're not staring at them. we were like, it was like, okay, my sole focus, I want to change. But I don't want to assume that like an eight year old or 10 or a 15 year old ⁓ is all into that. like going for a drive, like, let's go Taco Bell, grab a couple tacos on the way. It's like, hey, case, I didn't go well, I apologize, or

Kyle Wester (25:58.880)
Yeah, yeah, yes.

Kyle Wester (26:8.632)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep.

Kirk (26:21.502)
Hey, the way you're just talking to your mom, you know that doesn't work in a house. I'm curious what's going on. So I like the I'm curious phrase because it's not like, why did you do that again? Because that's kind of a typical guy thing that puts kids on the defensive versus like, hey, something's going on. I'm curious because I want to help you not do it anymore because I don't think you want to do it. And then it can be, yeah, it doesn't have to be that long.

Kyle Wester (26:25.518)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I agree. I agree.

Kyle Wester (26:35.085)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (26:42.552)
Yeah. Yep.

Kirk (26:48.148)
feel like this is also broadly applicable to relationships. Like, if my wife and I have to have a hard conversation, it's a lot nicer to go for a walk and to like sit across from each other. I don't know. We need to a talk about our relationship. ⁓ I was like, it takes some of the pressure off, like changing the environment, not just like coming into your kid's room and like, yeah.

Kyle Wester (26:48.440)
Yeah.
Of course it is, yes. ⁓ Yes. Yes. Yes. ⁓ I mean, sit down. gotta have a... ⁓ That's right.

Kyle Wester (27:10.764)
Yeah, well, I'm even thinking Casey, I remember early on when we first were married and I would be like, we would be coming back from church and I'd be like, hey honey, I've got some things to do this afternoon. Could you and I talk about something later tonight? And like the whole day she would be nervous about what that, and by the time we got, was something simple, it even a big deal, but it was like, ⁓ she just like, okay, what is it gonna be? What's he gonna tell me? And I think I'm sure our kids feel that way too, where they're just like.

Kirk (27:32.490)
So that's me. Like, I'll get a text from my wife and it'll be like, can we talk tonight? And my whole day is ruined. it's nothing, but like, it's just a difference in how we communicate. So I've just asked like, hey, if you're going to text that, can you at least give me like a little bit? You don't need to tell me the whole story, but, like, preface it with like, everything's good here, but like, you know, give me a little info so I'm not just sitting here like, no, what did I do? ⁓

Kyle Wester (27:39.894)
I know. ⁓

Kyle Wester (27:44.524)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (27:50.520)
context. Yes. ⁓

Kyle Wester (27:56.653)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (28:1.420)
Well, ⁓ you know what I want to do and make sure we hit upon this Casey is the reason why your dad, mean, Kirk, you're what you're in your late fifties, right?

Kirk (28:10.186)
Can you tell he's in his late 60s? still has hair. don't so yeah, I'm late 50s. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (28:11.994)
Hahaha!

Kyle Wester (28:17.812)
And I'm late 40, so I turned 49 this year. then, and so the reason, ⁓ the reason why ⁓ you and ⁓ I have done so much internal work and tried so hard to ⁓ respond to our kids in a different way and raise them just differently than we were raised ⁓ is because we wanted to leave a legacy that was better in some way. ⁓

Kirk (28:22.046)
Need a brag. ⁓ Braag. Braag about it.

Kyle Wester (28:44.194)
So that's why I'm curious, ⁓ Casey, you were discussing before we got on the podcast ⁓ about the differences you have noticed, because obviously I have a son too, and he's currently 13. And, man, there's like, we just took him to Chicago on this trip because every, every, when our kids turn 13, we asked them to pick a place they want to go and we give them a budget and then they plan the whole trip. Right. And then on that trip, my goal is, especially with my son was like, son, I don't want you to be me, you know, like I actually want you to be better than me.
And I want you to be able to like do so many things different than I have done because my brain is so freaking old and ⁓ it's like hard to change, but you're so moldable. so I just, made sure I poured into him. He's so kind. He's so kind. He's so caring with his sisters, all this kind of stuff. Right. ⁓ so I'm wanting him to be more emotionally intelligent, all that kind of stuff. But I would love to hear for you, Casey, what is it that you feel like the legacy, your dad through the changes he's made has kind of left you.
⁓ or even how your generation sees relationships differently because of this kind of change.

Kirk (29:48.542)
Yeah, I think, I mean, the biggest one is just actually having a relationship with your ⁓ kid and like being, no, but like I look at my dad's relationship with his dad and it's just vastly different. So the biggest gift ⁓ is ⁓ that we have a relationship now ⁓ and I call my dad and we go hike together and we do stuff and I feel safe coming to my dad. ⁓

Kyle Wester (29:53.516)
Yes. ⁓ Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yep. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (30:11.116)
Yeah. ⁓

Kirk (30:17.482)
I want to circle back to the importance of like that eight to 10 range. Like the trust that was built then served us so well. Like when I was going through harder things when I was 16, 17 and then in college and then I'd like make a mistake. then like the fact that I felt comfortable calling my dad and talking to him, I don't think that's something that you had access to when you were a young adult that

Kyle Wester (30:19.522)
Yeah. Do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (30:26.382)
Hmm. ⁓

Kyle Wester (30:32.344)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (30:46.946)
I did because you were willing to make that change ⁓ when I was ⁓ younger. Yeah. So the relationship that ⁓ for my friends, ⁓ I think the biggest thing is that we're a lot more connected than our parents generation, whether that's to ⁓ our wives or kids. It's like all of my ⁓ and to each other, like

Kyle Wester (30:53.315)
Yeah.

Kirk (31:14.122)
I don't remember my dad having a lot of guy friends ⁓ who he'd like call and talk to or, ⁓ you know, who could support in those tough times. ⁓ Whereas like all of my friends, all of my guy friends, we talk every other week, every week, we share what's going on, what we're struggling with, tell each other we love each other. Like, it's, ⁓ it's a lot different.

Kyle Wester (31:25.078)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle Wester (31:36.462)
⁓ Yep.

Kirk (31:40.131)
It feels like it's a lot different than what we watched our parents do. ⁓

Kyle Wester (31:44.302)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what's the benefit do you feel like? love, I mean, I everybody listening to this is saying, man, that's the kind of relationship I want to have with my son into adulthood. And that's why what we're both teaching through the podcast and through other forms of media is like what you do now matters to building that. You can't just do whatever the crap you want now and just hope it like turns into that magically. So I love how you brought it back to that eight to 10.
But if you could speak to Casey, ⁓ and I know your dad is very, ⁓ he's able to hear all this and this doesn't ⁓ hurt his feelings at all, but like, how do you feel like ⁓ you are more ⁓ mature in some ways or have grown because of the way your dad has purposely grown and matured himself?

Kirk (32:23.174)
It's

Kirk (32:35.978)
⁓ I feel like the most practical, ⁓ the most like specific practical thing is just the ability to own your own stuff ⁓ and take responsibility and apologize. ⁓ I see that in my friendships ⁓ with my wife, with ⁓ everything, even at work. it's ⁓ the ability to, ⁓ he modeled.

Kyle Wester (32:48.535)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (32:56.269)
Yeah.

Kirk (33:3.974)
Okay, I've been doing this this way and I've made a mistake and I'm sorry and I'm going to work on changing. So now it doesn't feel like a hit to the ego to be like, yeah, I messed that up. That's like, ⁓ yeah, everybody messes things up. I'm comfortable saying I'm sorry and working on things. So that would be.

Kyle Wester (33:14.190)
Oh, it's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (33:24.406)
Yeah. Well, yeah. And the thing I heard you say too, Casey, maybe tell me, I seemed like I was getting to that you kind of raised the bar ⁓ on what you want a relationship to be like, you know, like, like maybe before it was like, yeah, we just see each other at a sporting event or we, talk at work. That's my friend. ⁓ Like there's like the bar was super low and you'd like, do you even know what he's scared about? Do you know what worries him? Do you know what his marriage is like? Like I remember Casey just

Kirk (33:36.393)
Mm.

Kirk (33:43.978)
⁓ Okay.

Kyle Wester (33:52.910)
kind of feeling myself, I had a friend of mine who he liked to come over and watch soccer games with me. So we're both fans of a team in England and he'd watch it. And he started to get to where he was getting really mad at the team. He'd be yelling at the team a lot. And I remember my wife was like, I don't really want him coming over if that's what he's coming over for. So I remember confronting him and just said, listen, maybe you're confused why I bring you over. Like I asked you to come over. I like to watch the games, but I really come over to have conversations, man.

Kirk (34:8.874)
Thank

Kirk (34:14.922)
you

Kyle Wester (34:20.760)
about how your marriage is going, how your kids are. And if yelling at the TV is your goal, you can do that in your own house. Like you don't need to do it in mine. ⁓ So like, I wonder for you, do you feel, well, he stopped coming over to us. was like, he did, he chose the ladder. He chose the ladder, but it told me he did not have the desire to move deeper, right? And so I'm wondering for you, huh? Yeah, or the capacity, yeah, yeah, I was thinking, yeah, yeah, that's good.

Kirk (34:26.916)
Thank you.
Thanks, Sarah. ⁓ I'm ⁓

Kirk (34:40.938)
Or capacity. Or maybe the capacity. I think that's what Casey's talking about is probably comes much more naturally to him than it did to me where it was like at first it was like, I'm feeling vulnerable right now. Right? Like, and it was awkward. And to him, I just see it as like in his everyday life. It's just part of who he is. Not necessarily something he has to like.

Kyle Wester (34:51.202)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle Wester (34:57.550)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (35:4.982)
Yeah.

Kirk (35:8.002)
work on in that sense. Also, we kind of like for I'm going to speak for some of my guy friends here. But like, we watch all of our girlfriends when they go through a hard time, they have like 80 people to call and talk to. And we're just like sitting alone, like, well, we don't really talk about that. So I'm not going to call my friend for help. Like we just watch sports like so ⁓ probably a little bit of it is like, hey, we could we can learn.

Kyle Wester (35:18.786)
Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle Wester (35:29.709)
Yes.

Kirk (35:37.106)
something and actually talk to our friends. And then we too could have a support system when things go wrong. ⁓

Kyle Wester (35:37.560)
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓ And I love with putting both those together, ⁓ I love what you just said, Kirk, about how parenting our kids differently, like we're moving away from fear and shame and us controlling them and dominating them, intimidating them to behave. ⁓ It helps them, it helps increase their capacity to then be able to ⁓ like be more aware of stuff going on in them to also invite people in like Casey's saying to be a part of that.

Kirk (36:0.766)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (36:10.530)
Well, we're really maybe when you're raised within the other way where you're, you are constantly on edge a lot about messing up, not being good enough ⁓ is your capacity is very small. And maybe you're lucky if you just let your wife in, ⁓ you're like, if, if that, and then you're kind of like, it's, it's full, my it's all full. I don't need anybody else, just her. ⁓ And then you're like, no, no. Like I think because women in general, they have practiced that skill of being more vulnerable and talking, right. And sharing.
then their capacities may be greater to be able to have that kind of, and bring people into it, which like you said, Casey, is so important. If we wanna be healthy men for our kids, we're gonna face hard stuff like sickness and death, losing our jobs. And the number one thing, when I did counseling with drug and alcohol clients, the number one thing you wanted them to do was get a healthy, strong support network. Because if I have a support network, ⁓ using a guy metaphor, it's like you're bench pressing.

Kirk (37:1.770)
Hmm. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (37:8.978)
and you have people behind you spotting you. And all too often men are just being dads and they're bench pressing a lot of weight and they're scared to death it's gonna crush them and there's nobody there to spot them. Yeah.

Kirk (37:22.024)
Yeah. Yeah. And if I can say, because I don't know if we're running out of time, I don't do blame or guilt. I don't do any of that. But I do want men to know the gravity of your relationship, because as you get the same thing, we get dozens and dozens of emails ⁓ like a day a week, like all. And one of my first questions, because it's usually from a mom, child struggling with something. And one of the first questions is, what is your child's relationship with his or her dad?

Kyle Wester (37:27.150)
So we're good.

Kirk (37:52.074)
⁓ And I don't know if it's 80 % of the time, it plays a huge role. It is foundational. ⁓ if you fix, I mean, it goes both ways. But if you fix the dad relationship with the child, a lot of the anger, resentment, a lot of the physical aggression, a lot of the vaping, drinking, it goes away because there's just something there. ⁓

Kyle Wester (37:52.302)
⁓ Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep.

Kyle Wester (38:4.238)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Kirk (38:21.724)
I can say things, the father-son relationship, maybe you can talk to the father-daughter one. Look, I can say things to Casey ⁓ very, very quickly and in kind of a short, like five seconds where he's like, okay, got it, dad. Cause we have that trust ⁓ that ⁓ maybe it doesn't come across the same way from his mom, right? And so that there is something.

Kyle Wester (38:26.733)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (38:31.021)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (38:35.458)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Kyle Wester (38:45.752)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (38:49.278)
to the dad being very involved. And so for the men, that's a great, like it's an awesome power to have. And just like my favorite parts of my life now are like when Casey's like, hey dad, can I talk to you about this? And it's like, my grown son is coming to me asking me for my wisdom. And that's what you always want. But when they're kids, he's not like, dad, you have so much wisdom. Why don't you share it? Like they're not gonna say that at age 10. ⁓

Kyle Wester (38:58.200)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (39:4.363)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
forced.

Kyle Wester (39:16.771)
Yes.

Kirk (39:17.546)
The other importance of it too is like, if you're messaging from your dad as it's never good enough, then that goes deep. And then you're like, well, if it wasn't good enough for him, then why share this with my friends? Why share this with anyone? It's never gonna be good enough. So if that doesn't come from parents, then.

Kyle Wester (39:24.780)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle Wester (39:31.384)
I know, yeah, that's good, that's good. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and you know, I don't know if this is true. I did hear it said one time it hit me and it was powerful to me. So I'll share it, but how like a mom's love since the baby is in the mom and the mom is nurturing this baby for nine months prior to the baby coming. then unfortunately, lots of times it's the mom doing all the work of waking up and feeding the baby. And there's all these times of breastfeeding or bottle feeding the kid, a lot of bonding moments. It almost seems like the mom's love is a given, right? It just, it just is, you know, because
I am part of you, I came out of you. Whereas like someone who phrased it this way that the dad's love is the first love that chose them. That said, I choose to love you. And like that's why it can hurt so much. Maybe when a dad's love isn't given away or it's all coming as you're not good enough or you need to change. Cause it's like now I'm constantly trying to work to get my dad to choose it. ⁓ To say I do.

Kirk (40:14.346)
Mmm.

Kirk (40:31.050)
Oh, how many, how many guys do you work with that are neurosurgeons who also are like mountain bike champions because they're just always like, I've got to earn it. I've got to earn it. And I'd say even for the men listening, not just your love, but like the acceptance, like I like you as you are. And I think probably for Casey, that might be the strongest thing.

Kyle Wester (40:40.910)
⁓ Yeah, you know, yeah.

Kyle Wester (40:50.006)
Yes, it's good. Yeah. Yes. Yep.

Kyle Wester (40:59.405)
Yeah, yeah.

Kirk (40:59.966)
that I give him because that gives him confidence to try new things and mess up. But if I had messed that up, like he'd probably be a screw up. And then I blame him for it. ⁓

Kyle Wester (41:3.830)
Yes, ⁓ it's good. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, ⁓ that is a complete tie in to where the where I want to wrap this thing up. I love that. Because that's another thing that I know you and I are hoping we give to our kids ⁓ is we were taught that kids will do hard things by us being hard on them. Right. So if I'm hard on them, if I push them, then that's how they learn it. When that doesn't match up with the brain science that ⁓ as a kid feels safe, loved and secure in relationship.

Kirk (41:26.622)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (41:38.380)
then they're able to be courageous and actually attempt things that are harder, right? And so I want to kind of wrap it up speaking to that idea of modern day kind of fatherhood and this idea of I've got to be this alpha male. I don't want to be a beta male. Like I've mentioned to you before, I had a dad one time who was terminally ill and his son was crying about something that happened in the neighborhood. And ⁓ I told the dad, you know, in that moment, instead of getting mad at him,
I mean, you do realize you're dying. Like, ⁓ you ever think maybe those tears were about that? Did you take a moment? But I don't think you wanted to face that, right? Like, I think the kid wished dad would have just held him, because I think it had nothing to do with that. But he's thought, I'm asking my son to be a wuss if I hold my son while he cries, right? I need to tell him to get over it. Stop letting those kids bother you, right? So if you guys could speak to that about this whole, I'm sure you guys face it all the time on social media, ⁓ that like, you're just a beta male. You're not being tough enough.
And I want to hear your thoughts Kirk and I want to KC sees these things. So I'm what Casey's response is or what he thinks of that.

Kirk (42:43.774)
You know, I did an Instagram post once, because it's funny, like, you know, the guys who go out and do like the deer hunting, which is awesome and very, very cool. I wish I was more like that. But I started to think and I was like, okay, you got up really early in the morning and you went out by yourself and stood in like a deer blind by yourself and then shot something came back. And I'm like, that's what you're already naturally good at, not communicating with other humans and doing individual activities. I'm like, that's not that hard.

Kyle Wester (42:50.466)
Yeah, yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (43:13.098)
The alpha male thing is I just worked all day. I'm stressed. Traffic's really bad. And I walk through the door of my home and I've got two or three kids, one of them screaming, the other one's upset, my wife's frustrated. If you can walk into that situation and lead and deescalate, that's way harder. Like Casey and I do a lot of outdoor stuff. we live out in the Tetons like last summer. I want to brag.

Kyle Wester (43:13.282)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kirk (43:40.682)
I pretty much made it up like middle Teton. That's like 13,000 feet. He's afraid of heights. He's afraid of heights. Everything. And so it was an amazing accomplishment. And I'm proud of you. Thank you. Don't be condescending now. but that, that isn't that hard because that's like my goal. It was kind of individual, but like being able to handle people when they're really emotional.

Kyle Wester (43:41.058)
Do it.
Wheat, God, you're so tough, ⁓

Kyle Wester (43:51.406)
Way to go. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (44:3.342)
Yeah. Yep.

Kirk (44:9.034)
And it's pulling in your wrestling with like, like my dad was born in 1923. Like he was a depression era, World War II. Like you didn't have that modeling. So I do want to say this to the men who are listening. I'm really proud of you because you're breaking generational patterns and you're not there yet, but you're probably way better than your dad was to you. So keep going with that. It's worth the hard work. I'm as Kyle pointed out, I'm a lot older than him.

Kyle Wester (44:14.562)
Wow. Man, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (44:29.666)
Yes, yes, yep.

Kirk (44:38.376)
Because he's jerk and he had to point that out. But I'm also more accomplished than him. I'm kidding. But like Casey doesn't care. Casey's not like, Dad, you have a million followers. Like he doesn't care. He mocks it. I mean, I did tell you I did. ⁓ He was at like 900 and some thousand. I was at 500. he ⁓ was at... Okay, fine. I missed the details. See, it's never good enough. ⁓

Kyle Wester (44:42.424)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (44:51.896)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (45:3.128)
Did you?

Kirk (45:5.706)
So he was at like 500,000 followers and I was like, let me know when you hit a million, then I'll be proud of you. So all of that marked up, I'm like at 900 and I finally get to a million. I'm like, he goes, yeah, that was okay. Talk to me again at two in 10 years. But if you were to ask Casey, he doesn't care about like all those other typical guy things. It's like, you're not your dad. Like, and we have like, to his credit, like Casey. What do you mean I don't care about all the

Kyle Wester (45:19.534)
It's awesome.

Kirk (45:35.450)
I think. Well, but like the things of like typical success things, right? ⁓

Kyle Wester (45:39.116)
Like, yes, like him killing it at work and him, yeah, all that kind of stuff, ⁓

Kirk (45:44.584)
Yeah, he doesn't care. like to his credit though, like I'm learning things from him, which is cool. So it's this whole relational last summer, he took me on a three week hiking trip so we could just like talk, hang together. it's so it's worth the work. I mean, the work accomplishments are cool. I do care. ⁓ it's just that at the end of the day, I care a lot more that I can call you and talk to you about. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (45:50.808)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yes.
Yeah, so cool. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (46:5.290)
Yes. ⁓

Kirk (46:12.794)
Like it's great what you're doing at work. It's great what you're accomplishing like with your passions and your interests, but it's also great. It's better that we have a relationship. So at the end of the day, that's probably number one. Like your career is great, but like try having a relationship with your kid. ⁓

Kyle Wester (46:23.374)
Yeah, I love it.

Kyle Wester (46:28.844)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Well, I love it. What I think is so cool, and this is really humbling, Kirk, what you said, and it's something that ⁓ the sooner you can realize this, the better, is that your kids are gonna teach you as much as you're gonna teach them, if not more. ⁓ know, like I see the whole idea, and ⁓ you talk a lot about this, that ⁓ discipline is just discipleship, and that I think discipleship when...
and parenting was so cool about it, it can be a two way street. I mean, there's ways my kids are constantly discipling me. ⁓ I remember that this was a moment where I'm not proud of it, but ⁓ my dad came over to the house, he's at the house, he starts asking me questions about something, some kind of thing between me my brother, and I'm getting kind of annoyed about it. I'm like, dad, just leave it alone. Like, why do you keep asking about this? And he's like, he starts getting all mad and then.
Now, since I'm a grownup, I can just tell him to leave my house. I was like, ⁓ leave the house, dad, I'm tired. So like, he's like, okay, and he leaves the house and I'm feeling kind of, and my daughter, she was 14 at the time, she comes down and goes, where did Papa go? And I said, ⁓ I told him to leave the house because I was really sick of him asking about this thing between me and your uncle. And she goes, dad, that's not how we do it. Come on, let me show you how to take care of this. So she says, get your phone out. We're gonna text him right now. You don't wanna talk to your dad that way.
And it was awesome. And like she walked me through the text, ⁓ what she thinks would be best to say to help resolve the conflict. And then I got to walk them through that whole weekend. Eventually my dad and I did have a conversation. I did admit to him that what he said, I probably needed to hear, but I didn't like how he said it. And that's why I got triggered by it. And it was a really great moment to show the kids, but it was all inspired by my kid raising the bar of like,

Kirk (48:11.740)
Now, do you bring that up to your daughter when she says things to you incorrectly? Are you like, hey, I really don't think you. ⁓

Kyle Wester (48:20.598)
Yes, yes, she she I mean, she just recently to I remember, like she wanted to do something like go on a dance and I was I don't know why I had a big deal about her going and doing this dance. But I was like, why do want to go to this dance? And she said to me, she said, Dad, like, I thought you wanted us to talk with open hands. And it seems like on this subject, you just get close fist. And I'd like us just to be open handed about it. Can we do that?
And so just using those kinds of things, I'm like, oh my gosh, like she's, my kids are helping my marriage be better. They're helping me be a better friend because like they no longer think yelling at each other is ever helpful or ever good. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's hopefully the legacy we're leaving with our kids is a generation that instead of saying, well, the world is hard, so let's treat you with harshness. Instead, let's go change the freaking world and make it to where

Kirk (48:56.872)
That's awesome. ⁓

Kyle Wester (49:11.712)
it doesn't think that's acceptable or needed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you could. ⁓

Kirk (49:14.622)
Yeah, totally agree. I'm excited because I think their generation, they're not going to struggle with the same things that you and I did. ⁓ they'll have that connection. different struggles. You'll have different struggles. You'll be able to connect and do things. You'll never be as successful as I am. ⁓ You'll be... just kidding. No, because I think his generation has I'm never going to have a million followers because I don't walk in public. So... ⁓

Kyle Wester (49:22.690)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Hahaha! ⁓

Kyle Wester (49:42.670)
⁓ Well, hey if you could guys I want to thank you so much for doing this if you could ⁓ Wrap up like give me some kind of ending thoughts at all that either one of you might have ⁓ Just like ending thoughts for our listeners ⁓ what you'd like to leave them

Kirk (49:57.970)
I'd say for the men, start slowly. Just change one thing in yourself. Don't be like, I've got to change my whole outlook. It's like, okay, pick it, pick coming home from work in the afternoon. How can you deescalate? Come in, ⁓ sit on the floor, ask questions. And then I'd say the number one thing for men, affirm your kids for what they're already doing well without adding. But if you would just do that for a week and watch how they respond to you because

Kyle Wester (50:6.274)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (50:11.564)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (50:19.714)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kirk (50:27.274)
When I first started that with Casey, I thought, he's gonna get soft and not try hard. But like you said earlier, he wanted my acceptance, but what he knew is I could never really get it. So when I started saying, hey, that was a good job on that. Hey, nice effort. Then he worked harder and it was a really cool thing. So just start with something simple like that. Love that.

Kyle Wester (50:31.948)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle Wester (50:38.541)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (50:42.478)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's great. Casey, any closing thoughts for you? ⁓

Kirk (50:51.814)
my encouragement would just be ⁓ stick with it the same way you do at work with a boss that you don't like ⁓ and in every other area of life because it is worth it. ⁓ It's absolutely worth it. ⁓ And we be patient with us because as kids we will try to provoke you ⁓ and see if you're actually making changes or if you're just talking about making changes. And so just like

Kyle Wester (50:54.030)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (51:4.673)
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (51:17.869)
Yes.

Kirk (51:21.598)
being patient and sticking with it ⁓ when we're continuing to challenge you. It's not going to change overnight, but ⁓ yeah.

Kyle Wester (51:26.818)
That's good. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Okay, so yeah, keep that hope. Don't give up. Yeah, that's great. Now, where can they find you Kirk? So people are listening to you like we want to hear more Kirk stuff. Where would you point them?

Kirk (51:37.482)
⁓ Just look up the Calm Parenting Podcast and you'll find that the podcast is good. It's really good, especially for men. I keep it about 22 minutes. I talk really fast and it's actionable. So we're not talking about our feelings all the time. So for guys, it's safe. We talk about it, but it's no, it is a good point of like, it's not just like talking about feelings. It's like, well, what do do with that natural disappointment and frustration of life? So.

Kyle Wester (51:40.706)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle Wester (51:44.812)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, ⁓

Kyle Wester (52:0.010)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I would say to every listener, when I was a young dad, having Kirk Martin in my ear was super helpful. Telling me to do silly things like just get down and do pushups instead of yelling at your kid, just those kinds of things. And I'd be like, this is so creative. Like you really helped increase my imagination when I was a young parent to now those things just happen naturally in my mind. But back then they were like game changers, just having those little, little tips was super helpful. So
Definitely check out all the work that Casey and Kirk are doing both on Facebook, Instagram, and also look up his parenting podcast. It's a fabulous one. It will give you so much support as you're making this change. And so I want to just end by saying thank you guys for coming on. It was a fantastic conversation. I appreciate your time.

Kirk (52:44.490)
Thank you, Kyle. You're awesome, Amazing. ⁓