Episode 103

Welcome to The art of raising humans. I'm Kyle and I'm SARA and today we have a guest for you. We have a mom of three kids and I really wanted to bring you Kelly's story today because she's got a teenager, she's got two tween kids

 

And those tweens are twins, which always blows my mind. Doesn't blow your mind, SARA? Yeah. Twins blows my mind. Any pair of teeth. I tip my hat off to any tween. If you got triplets, quadruplets, I'm freaking out because sleep had to be horrible. But I'm bringing Kelly to us today and I want to say hi, Kelly.

 

Hi.

 

I'm bringing Kelly to the audience today because I really wanted everyone to hear your story, Kelly and your journey because one, this unique phase that a lot of parents who listen to this podcast are in where they're parenting teenagers in tweens. But the fact that you made this shift, like when you first started changing your parenting and started wanting to do something different, you and your husband Zach, it was when you had the oldest was four.

 

All right. And then, and then the youngest, the twins were, were one. Right. And I mean, I remember you coming to me and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, like how are they getting any sleep? How do they have any energy? I know you guys were exhausted. Um, but, uh, but I just wanted you to kind of share with us kind of where you're at now and what that journey has been like.

 

Yep.

 

Yeah, well, it's so great to see your faces for one. And to think this journey really started 10 years ago in terms of working with you guys. Of course, I knew you from college. But working with you, we came to you. You're right, Hazel was four. And the twins were about to be two, maybe not quite. And we weren't sleeping. We didn't sleep for a long time. So I barely remember it.

 

Um, we were just in a place, both Zach and I had similar upbringings. We grew up in the church and we had this idea. Um, we're both the youngest in our families and so we didn't have younger siblings and so, but we ha yeah, we had this idea. We thought we knew, right? Everyone thinks they know everything until they actually have kids. So we thought we knew what we wanted to do. And then Hazel came along and we were like, huh, okay, this is

 

Oh yeah, okay babies. All right.

 

going differently than we thought it was going to. And then the twins came along and our daughter, Alice, had like, she was not as verbal as Hazel and Luke were at a younger age. And so the way she expressed things was very challenging. And I was like, look, we don't know what we're doing. Like, we need to just admit that. And

 

And I remember having this moment too, before we came to you guys. And I remember saying to Zach, like, I feel like I am going to be having conversations with Hazel in 10 years, and here we are, having conversations with her as she like, really shapes her beliefs about who God is and who she is and how they relate to one another. And I'm gonna have to say things like,

 

No, I know that dad and I did that, but I don't really believe that God loves you that way. And I was like, then what the bleep am I doing? And so that was really like the catalyst for saying like, we need to look at some different ways. Like, you know, I knew the one verse in the Bible, the one about physical discipline. And I don't even know if that's properly translated or not, but you know, like the one verse that everyone was quoting and I was like, that's not enough to get me to believe that we're actually doing what is best for our kids. So we need some help. We need to ask the experts. And so we came to you guys and that's what started us.

 

Well, Kelly, I remember, I don't know if this was exactly the incident that you and Zach finally said, we need help. But I remember one of the stories was you were at, you know, we were, we were in Tulsa and you were living there at the time. And I remember you were at the Guthrie green, which is like a communal space in downtown Tulsa. And I think Hazel got really mad. And I think she either was hitting you or trying to bite you or something. And I think that when that's when you guys came or like, we need some extra coaching. We need some help on this.

 

Yes, for sure. And Hazel hadn't been a biter in her early toddler years, but around four, she did, like she started biting and there were these like rage moments. Of course, she had started pre-K at school. So there were a lot of things I didn't understand just about how stressful that is on their little bodies. And she felt safe at home to freak out. And so she did, but I didn't know that's what was happening. I thought...

 

in these rage fits, you know, where she would like come at me, um, in her little tiny self, I was like, did something happen to her? Has someone hurt her? And so Zach and I were like, is this a sign of something else? And now we really need some expert help. And so, um, yes, you're right. There, it happened at Guthrie Green. It happened. You name it. It happened anywhere.

 

Yes.

 

Yes. What, and can you, the thing I'd love for you to share too is I remember I don't think you had any idea what I was gonna teach you. And so you guys came knowing I was gonna help, but then I remember pitching to you this idea of not spanking, this idea of not using timeouts, and I remember you thought I was crazy.

 

No.

 

100%. And now, granted, you might be crazy in the other areas. This one has proven to be pretty solid advice. No. I was like, I don't understand. Like, I've heard rumblings of these like no spanking people. And it seems like those are the kids that are a little out of control and you don't want to be around them. And so I definitely was coming from I couldn't have articulated this at the time.

 

Hahaha!

 

but I can look back and see that I was coming from this idea that parenting is about controlling your children, right? Because that's how everyone else will know that you're a good parent. It's because you've got those kids under control. And we've all heard people that we love and respect say things like that. Like they need to get those kids under control or wow, she's running a tight ship over there. And that's what I wanted people to say about me.

 

I don't guess I had ever met myself, but I really wanted people to think that I was running a tight ship and I just wasn't. And of course, in that process with you learning, that's really coming, parenting from a place of fear and like, you know, concern about what other people think as opposed to just like loving my child. And but yeah, when you know, you were like going down the no spanking road, I was like, you better have something good up his sleeve.

because I need something to keep things in line at home. And I did not have anything else.

 

Yeah. What was the thing that helped you make that shift? Like, how did you, because I think that was about two, we'd met twice. I think the first time you were kind of like, is he implying that we're not going to do this? And then I think the second time, I was just more explicit of like, yeah, I'm not going to, we're not going to do this, right? And so I remember, I think there was a switch. I'm just wondering for you, if you could articulate when you bought into it. Like what helped you finally go, okay.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Hehehe

 

Yeah.

 

Because that is a big change. Because I know SARA and I were also brought up in a generation of people who felt the same thing you just articulated. And so typically spanking was a way to control the kid's behavior. And so for us, there was a key moments where we finally were, I think we're actually not gonna spank anymore. And so what was that for you and Zach?

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Yeah, I think Zach and I arrived at that decision to take spanking off the table. We arrived at it at different times. He was a little slower than I was. But I'll tell you, we had gone through some of these sessions with you. And, you know, like we said, mostly it was coming to you because of our concerns about Hazel and making sure we were on the right track with her. But then Alice came along.

 

And she was so physical. And at that time, I was doing timeouts. I was trying to lean on timeouts more than spanking. But there was this one time I just kept putting Alice back in her bed, back in her bed, and saying, no, ma'am, you may not come out of your room. She had done whatever. And I was sitting on the floor in the hallway, and I had my feet up on the wall for my legs to block her from coming out of her room for the 100th time.

 

And she came out with all of her curls and a giant bow on her head. I mean, she was screaming. She was in total distress. I hate this moment now, but she came out. She was just wearing her diaper. She took her diaper off and peed on my legs. And I was like, this just went primal. She is like marking her territory, you know, and I remember thinking like. I knew with her.

 

physical discipline just set me up for a power struggle. She highlighted that for me more than the other two did for sure. And I was like, at some point, I'm going to lose this power struggle. And then where will we be? Then what will we have? And I knew with her that loss for me would come pretty quickly. And when that moment happened, I was like, I don't even think timeouts are working anymore. And so,

 

Thank you.

 

She was really like, you had given us such good information, we were making slow transitions. But when Alice blew onto the scene in her toddler years, it was like, if we want to have any relationship with any of our kids, at some point, we have to make these changes and we can't be slow to change. We just have to like, it's like, do it or get off the pot, right? Like we're going to do it. And so that's when I was like,

 

Yeah.

 

Hey, what's the feelings board from Dr. Becky Bailey? What does the safe place look like? Walk me through that one more time because we are making the change. And that was really, I would say Alice, I often refer to her as a climate changer. She changes the climate wherever she is. And I love that about her. Part of what she was experiencing was like these heightened emotions. And I think it was...

really scary to her because she's not like a Hazel or Luke who's going to tell you all about it or like me who's going to tell you all about it. She's like Zach, but with super heightened emotions and didn't have the words to tell me. So she was finding another way to express that. So our deep love for our big feeler moved us right into a different strategy for parenting.

 

Yeah. So how, you said you were at different paces of reaching that. How did you navigate being in two different places for a while? How did you come together on that? Because I think a lot of parents would relate to one or the other being in a different place and trying to come together. It's hard to navigate.

 

For sure. I think something that Zach and I have worked towards and do better now than we did then even. But we're pretty good about asking honest questions and giving space for honest answers. I am thankful for that. I grew up with yellers, and Zach is not a fighter.

 

He's just not going to do that. If you're getting that level of emotion from him, you did something. He just doesn't do that. Whereas I can be like, you put the Tupperware in the wrong drawer. What's wrong with you? You know, like so what I appreciate about him is that he doesn't give me the fight that I'm looking for sometimes. And so you can't fight with yourself. And so

we have been able to have more level conversations about some of these topics. And he, we both were like, are we just being soft parents? Are we just opting for something that's easier? Are we abandoning ship on discipling our children? This idea, we were just talking about this the other day, I was like, there's this idea that we grew up with and that a lot of people...

 

have, and I understand this idea that God gives you children for you to mold and shape them. But the truth is that God gives us children to mold and shape us. And that's my belief, you know? And so God gives us children to reparent ourselves. This is where we break cycles, right? And that's what this has been for us for sure. But like,

this idea that you get these kids and you like mold them and shape them into who you want them to be. That just doesn't end well. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of that. And so we were able to kind of talk around like, what's our ultimate goal? And I still, Kyle, I think I've told you this before, but even lately, I have gone back to my notes from our time with you 10 years ago, because what applied in our toddler years is resurfacing in a different way. And teen years, the foundational principles are just

 

good no matter what, but learning how to reapply those. And, you know, going back to like, what is my ultimate goal with my kids, which is connection. Both Zach and I come from broken, brokenness in our families of origin and even today, broken relationships. And so I think SARA, maybe to answer your question is that we were able to kind of come around some of our concerns and are like, okay, well, if we're not gonna spank, then what are we gonna do?

 

it was easier to answer that question because like, well, what is our ultimate goal? And ultimately what we want to have is adult children that want to spend time with us. And we want to spend time with them. So our goal is connection. It's always about connection and what's the best way to get there. How can I communicate that to them? And so we were just like, I don't understand why we thought that hitting was right. You know, like

how could that possibly yield the results? Zach is also a data guy, so you just show him some research and the numbers and it's like, okay, we gotta change.

 

Yeah, yeah. Nice.

 

Well, and there was two things you said that I thought were really powerful. There was one, this idea of really great teachers are really great learners. You know that, that like that you being open to your kid being somebody who could teach you, I think is a big game changer. You know, I, I look back and it's like, I've saved this a lot of people I help. And I know I've said this to you and Zach, but I am a better human being because of them. They have taught me.

how to love in deeper ways, forgive quicker, be more open-minded and open-handed with other people, less judgmental, less critical. I mean, they've taught me all that because I've gotten jaded in my old age or I've gotten cynical or I've gotten pessimistic, whatever it is, but they're constantly optimistic and always believing the best in me. And I mean, there's ways in which they see me that I

 

Yes.

 

I haven't seen myself in a long time that way. And they just, they think the world of you. And they think, you know, they're always looking for the best in why you did something. And I think when you come with that mindset, that is a game changer. And then the second thing you said was this idea of connection and then tying that into your marriage is that when we make connection the emphasis with the kid, why wouldn't that also work with us too? So then let's connect on these issues about the kid and then see how the kid's issues

 

make us more connected. You know, and it's pretty cool how that all ties in.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah, it is. It is so good. You know, you were talking about like how children like your kids have taught you so many good things in life and like, you know, the forgiveness one has been huge for me. I remember, you know, growing up, you know, my parents, I was a surprise. So my parents were a little older when I was born. So they came from a generation that wasn't talking about these things, right?

 

Um, but I don't ever remember hearing my parents say, I'm sorry for anything. And it's not cause they were so perfect. Uh, you know, like there was, but it's the power dynamic, right? You have to establish this power hierarchy. Um, if you're going to keep control of your home and of your, of those kids. Right. And so learning to say, I'm sorry to Hazel. I will never forget the first time I, I apologized to her. Um,

 

It was so hard for me because it was like brand new. And I, there were a lot of tears. It was probably, you know, way more of a reaction than was needed on my part. And she was probably like, what's wrong with mom? But I, it was real. And so then I remember it was like a few days later, she came and said sorry to me for something she had done for like, you know, whatever, throwing something at me or whatever. And I was like,

 

It's happening. It's happening. Like these cycles are breaking. And still to this day, my kids are honestly quicker to forgive and bring up hard conversations than even I am because it's been such a normal part of their lives from a young age. Whereas Zach and I didn't experience that. And it's so healing for me. Like from a real selfish standpoint, it's healing for me. And you're right, like the best

 

What did you say? The best teachers are the best learners? Yes.

 

are the best learners. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If anybody had a really great teachers because they were open to learning. And I liked, you know, we did an interview a few weeks back with a dad who he talked about that, how the old schools type parenting just wasn't vulnerable. They thought vulnerability was weakness as opposed to what we're teaching our kids is vulnerability is strength. It takes courage to be vulnerable.

 

Absolutely.

 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

 

I was, I think the thing we revisit a lot is kind of feeling.

 

sort of like pioneers in this a little bit, you know, there was this style of parenting. And so we're constantly having to rework how we look at situations. It's a practice we do daily. And we have plenty of moments where we think, okay, how's this going to turn out? You know? And so I'm curious for you, how have there been moments where you're doubting? How do you handle those doubts? How's that journey been as you're doing something different?

 

So I wanted to ask you, we feel, have often felt like pioneers in this parenting. It's new. There's not a whole lot of models out there. And so there's plenty of moments where we check in and have conversations about like, Ooh, is this, is this working? Is this, or how are we doing? And, and having to intentionally practice what we want to do and, you know, be very intentional in our parenting approach. So I've wondered how that is for you. Cause like you say, you're parenting in a different way than what your brain was wired for. So.

 

So how's that process been? How do you support that?

 

Yeah, gosh, that's a great question. We definitely have moments of what I would call backsliding, where we go back to more instinctual ways to react to a situation. But what's great about having gone through a set time of coaching with you guys?

 

and learning these principles is that we always have something to come back to. It's like an anchor space for us. So in other words, like when we get off track, when I yell, when I said I wasn't going to yell anymore, or when I'm like, I'm ready to take away privileges as a consequence instead of thinking about what is really beneficial here. Or you know, like

 

you know, Kyle, you've shared with me, you know, like, you got to ask yourself those three questions, is my goal to punish? Is my goal to rescue? Or is my goal to teach? And I'm like, my goal is to punish right now. Like, that is, that is currently my base level goal. So how do I get to, but what's great is that Zach and I both have, it works like a system of accountability for us, right? Because we can say, it's not

you know,

 

what approach you take in parenting, you're gonna wonder that until it kind of works out, right? And we're years away from knowing if this is working with my kids. So far, so good. But so, yeah, we definitely have doubts, but also we're able to kind of come back and like remember, like, okay, why are we doing this? How do we get back on track?

 

Yes. Yeah. That's good.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

We have adopted the painful process of humility and apologizing, you know, that vulnerability that doesn't come naturally sometimes, being vulnerable with our kids and being honest with them. Hey, you know, while I didn't like maybe the way you expressed that to me, I handled that completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with you telling me this is your honest feeling. You know, we can workshop.

 

alternative ways to say it. But right now, the most important thing is that I tell you, I was wrong. I overreacted. I hurt you with my words and I don't want to do that anymore. Will you forgive me? And so yeah, coming back to that space helps us get back on track.

 

 Well, if we can, I want to jump on that in thinking about when you came, obviously the kids are very little now they're teenagers and tweens. So what is the fruit? I think, you know, kind of piggybacking what SARA said, I think part of the confidence you and Zach have in pursuing this further is you've seen some fruit. You've seen fruit come out of your relationship with the kids and out of the humans they're becoming. So if you could express that, what's the fruit that you've seen that gives you the confidence that yes.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

I want to continue down this road, even though like you said, it's an uncertain future, but I think it's the best path to take.

 

Yeah, so we are seeing some fruit and you know, some days more than others, right? So if I can dovetail off of that a little bit, one of the things that has been the biggest gift to me, personally in all of this, is that learning a new strategy of parenting, learning a little bit more about brain science and the way...

all of these things, like what's happening inside of the body and the brain in these moments of like, you know, outbursts or whatever, or even good moments, what's happening. One of the benefits to me was that I learned more about me, my body, my brain. And it's not a surprise to me that a few years after we started making these changes in my own personal therapy, some

like past memories that were kind of patchy were able to come together. And I was able to start on a more healing process in my own physical body and through processing some of my past traumas. And I don't think that I would have been ready to put all of that together and to know what my body was telling me in order to heal had I not started on this process.

 

Mm. Yeah.

 

with learning a different way to parent. So that's been a gift to me personally. That's where I've seen fruit in my own life, but now go to my kids because we're able to put all of these pieces together as we learn and grow along the way and our body of knowledge is growing as a family around how to interact with one another and truly love one another. I see my kids being able to connect.

things that are happening in their bodies with making better decisions for themselves, even, you know, like, I don't feel good when I am around this person, you know? And so, but I think if we had not taken off, like physical discipline, my earbud just jumped out, sorry. If we had not taken physical discipline off of the table.

 

it would have been much harder to give our kids the gift of knowledge about how to listen to your body and how to know when you are in danger or when you are just in a place of joy. Embrace that. It would have really disrupted that conversation. There would have been some big gaps that just, they wouldn't have been able to fill in and I wouldn't have been able to fill in for them.

 

Yeah. Love that.

 

Yeah.

 

It's really important. This is like one of the best gifts we could give our kids is saying your body is worthy of respect and honor. This leads to conversations about consent, even at a young age, like no one may touch your body, you know, like that. But it didn't make sense if I would be saying that, but then taking a wooden spoon and disciplining them, which is...

 

Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. Yeah.

 

Just a nice way to say hitting your kid. And so like, yeah, I think that's where we've seen some fruit. Our kids are able to listen to their bodies. They feel confident in that. They know when a friendship is toxic or when it's healthy or they're learning that. And we're able to talk about like how they feel and like, you know, even in moments of anxiety, like being able to talk to your body, put your hand on your chest, talk to yourself, you know, and tell yourself you're safe and you're loved. And...

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Yeah, that has been a huge fruit. And they're able to implement that with one another in their conflicts with one another. Now, they're super normal kids, they fight, right? But they can come back to spaces where they've said too much or in an angry way and own it and forgive one another. And they're learning that now. And that to me, it's beautiful to watch. Sometimes beautiful, most of the time beautiful.

 

Yes, love it. Yeah, yeah.

 

Well, what I think is so powerful about that is what you started when they were one and four is now bearing fruit to where because of that discipleship, because of that healing you've been able to do through this parenting that's happened for you, then as they're going into these teenage years where it's all about identity, it's all about who am I? What is it that I want to do with my life? What boundaries do I want to set for me?

 

with relationships, what does a healthy relationship look like? Now all that fruit's coming out where they're making those decisions, not completely independent, separate from you, but actually in connection with you. So then they're inviting you on that journey and saying, Mom, we've watched you go through this journey. We've seen dad go through this journey. Will you

 

walk with us as we go through our own journey. And I just think that's something that was also kind of missing in that old school model parenting. It was more like the shove you out, go figure it out on your own. And that's when you're the blind or leading the blind. And instead you guys have opened your eyes, you're very aware and you're saying, hey, can I, with our eyes wide open, let's walk this path together.

 

Yes. And what a gift, right? Because like, what is, what do we all want? We all hope that our kids want to come home at Christmas, that they want to bring their friends to us, you know, and I had to really ask myself, why would they want to, you know, like, I remember you talking about, like, even taking things away as a consequence, you know, when they're little, and then, you know, it's one thing to remove something for safety, right? But it's another thing to just be like, you can't have it anymore.

 

And then when they get to the ages our kids are now, then they're like, I don't wanna give you anything because you're gonna take it away. And I just, that like, that stopped me in my tracks because I thought like, I, you know, while the toddler years were sweet, I wasn't that mom that's like, hold on to these moments, they're so beautiful. I'm like, no, teenagers are challenging in a different way, but they can wipe themselves. And that's a really great gift.

 

And so like, I'll have late night conversations just don't make me change another type. And so I didn't, you know, I didn't want to be where I am now and my kids withholding their, what's going on. I, I know they probably don't tell me everything and that's okay, but they know that they can. And that is a really beautiful gift because I want that to continue as they get older. Yeah.

 

Yeah. I know before we started this conversation, you said you went to your kids and shared with them some of the questions that we were gonna ask you prior to. And they didn't give much response, but they did have a big response on things that you and Zach could change. So I was wondering, what were some of those things that they pointed out and were like, well, you know, mom and dad, I think you could get better at this or that.

 

Yeah. Ha ha ha.

 

Uh-huh. Well, it was funny because I think I told you Luke's hand like shot up right away, like before I could even finish the question, but then he shied away because I think everyone looked at him and he's caught somewhere in between like being like Zach and like me. So he has this like introvert extrovert war on the inside of him and so he's...

 

He was like ready to say it out and then he kind of shied away. And which led us later to a good conversation about like, it's okay to like speak your mind. It's okay to ask for what you need. It's okay to, you know, say these things. He did tell me he does remember that I used to yell a lot more and that sometimes I can still do that. And I was like, well, that's fair. That's something I'm going to be working on for a very long time.

 

Yeah. Yes, yes.

 

I appreciate your input. Next. Yeah. Any gram 8's forever. And Hazel told us, this was a funny moment, because she was like, oh, I have some things I want to say. And we're just really in the throes of 14. She's so much fun. And really finding her voice. Say that. And she said,

you need to learn to appreciate my dark humor and not launch into a lecture when I say something dark. And I was like, don't lose it, don't lose it, don't lose it, don't lose it. Luke said, I think you need to try harder to be funny. And I was like, well, that's from, from the galley back there. Let's listen there. But no, you know, I, we had a great time.

 

conversation about it because I was like, you know what? I totally hear you. That's so frustrating when someone doesn't appreciate your sense of humor. And you're right. I'm a mom. I'm hearing safety concerns in what you're saying. It's a joke to you. I've known people who've experienced these things. And I'm like, hey, that's actually not OK because I said, but I hear you. I'm going to dial that back a little bit. And yeah, no, great point. Alice didn't really have much.

to share. I'm sure she thought some things. I'll check her journal later. It's probably written in there. Dear diary, mom's a total pain again.

 

I love that you gave them, I mean, man, I can't imagine that question being posed. Hey, what, what can we work on as your parents? So I love that you gave them that chance and that they felt like they could, who knows if they really unloaded at all, but the fact that they could even share anything and feel safe to say, you know, you're a work in progress, mom and dad. Let me give you some pointers. I love that. Yeah.

 

Yeah, it was fun. They for sure didn't say all the things that were on their minds, which then of course I'm like over analyzing like, is there a place where they're not feeling safe enough to share with me and but I think it's probably just like a surprise question at dinner that they're like, this feels too good to be true. I can't say all of these things right now.

 

Yeah, well, it's also raising kids who are being thoughtful and kind. And they're just like, I want to figure out if I'm going to say this, and what's the best way to say it. I don't want to just blurt it out without thinking about it first. Yeah.

 

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so that's a win, I suppose.

 

Yeah, well, if I could, if there's a parent listening right now, who's got teenager, you know, tweens or even younger kids that are four and one, and they're on the edge of thinking about like, what should I go get coaching? Should I reach out for help? Um, I mean, what, what would your, you know, if they came to you and said, Kelly, would that be something that would be helpful? What, what, what would your thoughts be on that?

 

Yes, you know, I actually posed this question to our kids last night as well. And Hazel gave the answer that stood out to me the most. And she said, well, I mean, do you want to have a relationship with your kids when they're older or not? And I was like, okay, well, we can talk about better delivery, but great point. Yes.

 

Um, one thing that I love when Luke was little, he would talk about coming to see Mr. Wester in his office and he would say, it's time for me to go to the few wings doctor. He called therapy of the feelings doctor. And because we talked about it as like, even if there's not anything really wrong, sometimes it's good to go for a checkup. You do that with your body. You did that with your teeth. And so we really normalized this idea that like.

 

we need sometimes the medical experts to help us and to have a different perspective on what's going on and help us walk through something. And so I would say that to any parent considering like this is just good practice. Go and get coaching from someone who cares about you, who I can tell you it's in a non judgmental environment. What I appreciate about our times with you, Kyle, is you were coming.

from a similar temperament as me and a similar background. And SARA, you too came from a similar background. And so you're not coming from a place of like, I was born knowing this, but this is just like really helpful, caring, coaching to help you create as a parent, this space for your kids that is safe, that is unconditionally loving. I love the verse in Ephesians.

 

Yep.

 

Ephesians 5, I think it's the first couple of verses that talks about like the way God loves us as a father. It says in the message, mostly what God does is love you, love like Him, like children who learn from their parents. And so really positioning God as that like loving, caring father, this is the ultimate kind of love that you can give to your kids. And it's okay to say maybe.

 

Maybe we didn't know how to do it. Maybe my parents didn't know how to do it. Doesn't make them bad. It just means they just didn't have this knowledge available. I want to give my kids everything I can and learn better ways to connect with them in the long run. This is sometimes I call parenting the long con. You're going like the long, this is the long way. It's not a con, but sometimes it is to get them in the car.

 

But like it's, you know, you're running the long race here. And so we need help along the way. No, none of us know how to do this on our own. We need help. And I would say run, don't walk, go sign up.

 

Great.

 

Good. Well, Kelly, we want to thank you so much for your time and you sharing just your story. You know, it has been a blast for both of us to get to know you and Zach and your kids. And what's really been neat to see as your kids grow up is just there. You know, you mentioned it a lot, but just this awareness of what's happening in them and them getting better and better at articulating that. And sometimes that can make life a little harder

 

stuck in a phone or a device and not thinking about what's happening around you and being aware of the feelings and what people are experiencing, you know, but I've seen your kids show such insight, not only into what's happening in them, but also happening in others. And that's really a big part of the fruit that we want to see with any family that we work with is for people to not just think about themselves, but also think about

 

other people that surround them and really be able to connect with those people in almost any circumstances they're in, you know? And so it's been cool to see your kids grow up and get to know them. And I know you're in this new exciting phase, these teenage years, and I'm looking forward to seeing who they become.

people that surround them and really be able to connect with those people in certain places. It's really cool to see your kids grow up and get to know them. You're in this new exciting phase, these teenage years.

 

Yeah, so if this was helpful to you guys as listeners, I would encourage you to please give this a like, leave a comment. I know we had our 100th episode a couple weeks ago and we're trying to still reach those 100 comments, 100 reviews on whatever platform you're listening to this on. So I would encourage you to go there. Please leave that because it helps other parents find this kind of content, helps other moms and dads hear stories like Kelly's and to feel encouraged

 

alone because I know when we did this journey sometimes we felt like we were just doing it all by ourselves and so it's really nice to have a community of people that can come alongside you and to say hey we're in this with you so we'd really ask you to do that and if you also are interested in coaching you can reach out to me at kyle at art of raising humans comm and just email me your interest in that and we'll get back to you pretty quickly to see if you'd be a right fit for doing exactly what SARA and I were able to do for Kelly and

 

I hope you guys are having a great day and thank you for taking the time to listen today. Thank you, Kelly.

 

Thanks you guys, great to see you.