Episode 182

Episode 182 Transcript:

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:33.494)
In today's culture, there can be some really confusing messages about raising boys. ⁓ You know, like in the old school approach, ⁓ many of us were taught to be ⁓ strong, to not cry, to almost like harden up. But then lots of us feel like, man, we'd love our boys to be compassionate and empathetic. But then it seems like if they do that, they're gonna be taken advantage of. And there's all these different types of mixed messages going on in our culture today.
And that's why we wanted to bring on Dr. Daniel Ellenberg from Strength with Hearts. And I just, we wanted to bring him on because I just love these values ⁓ of Strength with Heart. The values are, ⁓ they want to help boys live in a world where men feel the freedom and confidence to be fully human, to have access to the full range of human traits, emotions, and actions. Where men are both strong and heartful, dynamic and receptive.
assertive and flexible, direct and kind, confident and humble, serious and playful where men have deeply connected and compassionate relationships with themselves and ⁓ with others. So if you are a dad listening to this and you want to be that kind of man and want to raise those kinds of boys, or if you're a mom raising a boy or boys ⁓ and you're really wanting to know how to do this, we're going to dive into this today of what that looks like and how you can do certain
certain things that you can do to make that more likely. We're to touch upon toxic masculinity and, and, um, competition and all those kinds of different topics. And we're really going to dive in deep about ways to approach that in a healthy way with your sons. So, um, get ready to really learn about this topic. If you don't have any boys, definitely share this, you know, listen to it then share it with people who do, you know, families, you know, who do have boys because Dr. Ellen Berg's work is very, very helpful and informative.
in this area. So sit back and enjoy the podcast.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:0.728)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there. Welcome everyone. I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, something that we really haven't spent much time touching upon specifically, but it has been something we've talked about a lot in our We about a lot. And I know I've come across it a lot helping families. Is this topic of boys and men and kind of growing up in this culture, you know, that many of the families that we help, that we coach, that we work with, they're wanting to switch away from
the kind of old school way where men were taught to not cry and not be sensitive and all that kind of stuff. ⁓ there's these dads and moms who are like, I want to raise boys who are more sensitive, more empathetic, you know? But then in that process, they're confused how to guide that in a seemingly, ⁓ in a culture that seems ⁓ to want to make them tough, you know? And if they aren't that way, they're just gonna get crushed. Right, you worry that they can survive without...
Being part of that culture. Yeah, and if they are too sensitive or they cry they're gonna be seen as weak or seen as you know a pansy or something like that Whatever they might be called, right? And so we see a lot of boys struggling. So so that's why today guys we wanted to bring on dr. Daniel Ellen Berg ⁓ and he's got a Would you say it's a business? It's a it's a ⁓ how would you describe it? ⁓ Yeah, it's called strength with heart, right?
And there your help, I looked at the core values, they were so beautiful, but I'd love to hear about that and what you're doing to help men today with these issues.

Daniel S Ellenberg (1:33.038)
Well, I think that you already touched on one of the big conflicts that exists for boys and men, which is like somehow you're supposed to choose one side of the binary. You're either sensitive or you're tough. And I kind of go like, why do we have to, I mean, life isn't like that. There are some times when you do need to be tough. I mean, there's no question about that. Now, of course we have to define what tough means. And sometimes we're

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:52.631)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:59.650)
Yes.

Daniel S Ellenberg (2:1.504)
sensitivity, vulnerability, openness is what's most called for. The question isn't so much whether you need those particular aspects of yourself. The question is more when. And so a lot of what we really focus on is flexibility. And psychologically, one of the big features in terms of healthy personality, healthy relationships is flexibility. I think about this Winston Churchill line where he said, courage,
is the willingness to stand up and speak. It is also the willingness to sit down and listen. Now, when you think like here, the two of you are obviously married and you have children. And there are some times when it's really important to speak your mind. But then there's also, okay, how do you speak your mind in a way that's relational and not just reactive? Right? And then how do you listen? And it's obviously easier to listen when someone's

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:33.868)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:37.901)
Mmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:55.426)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (3:0.430)
sharing something about like when you did x that impacted me in a way that felt bad or I felt hurt by that and and if you're as a male you know in this case for you I would know I can't I've never hurt by anything but of course you are because you're a human animal I like to call us human animals and and we are we are wired to have a full range of human emotions and what's weird to me speaking of binary

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:8.332)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:18.796)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (3:29.998)
is that we live in a world where there is the female, the so-called female side, which is warm, empathic, compassionate, nurtured, kind, heartful, and the male side, which is tough, strong, take no prisoner, always in control, and it's complete nonsense. Because I believe every human being has the full range.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:35.330)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
nurturing, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:52.247)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (3:57.408)
of possibilities and we want to encourage our children to really have those full range and to bring those out in certain different circumstances.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:5.932)
Yeah, no, I love that. And that sounds ideal. I think the situation, and ⁓ we can more just speak personally, is I was, ⁓ I remember actually, to be honest with you, when my daughter was born, my oldest, ⁓ for some reason I felt pretty ⁓ confident. I wasn't really scared about parenting my daughter. I had this like weird idea in my head that if Abby someday marries somebody like me, ⁓
I'm cool with that. ⁓ I was okay with that. But then when my son was born, it just hit me different. had this, like as I was holding him, ⁓ as I, you know, he came out into the world, it hit me that he might, he's gonna look up to me as this model of manhood ⁓ as somehow, as if I have this figured out. And I knew there was so much I didn't have figured out that I all too often leaned on my anger.
and to take control of situations, right? And I didn't know how to ⁓ really ⁓ show him a different way. And I knew I wanted him to have a different way. And so it actually was kind of a lot more scary to me to start raising a boy, because I didn't feel like I really knew what that meant and how to do it successfully.

Daniel S Ellenberg (5:18.222)
⁓ So you're already doing something that's outside ⁓ of what would be considered the traditional male role. You're talking about your fear, right? So, and which is real. mean, like to me is one of the oddest things is that somehow the guys aren't supposed to be afraid. Hello? Like we're all going to die. I'm not, not that this is revelatory to anyone here, but that, you know, ultimately

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:27.084)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:35.808)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:40.759)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (5:44.750)
We human beings are vulnerable at any one moment. Boom, you've been taken out of existence. know, in existence, we talk about walking the line between being and non-being. And if that is not vulnerable, you tell me what it is. And so to deny that, which is really to some degree at the core of some ways that guys are, you're not, you're not going to be impacted. That's crazy. I mean, you think about like the ultimate, like masculine characters in the culture, culture. I mean, different.
groups, but certainly football players are in that camp, right? But it turns out that the average age that NFL players die is 54. 54. That's over 20 years younger than the average man dies. And they're the toughest, most masculine, you know, most masculine men. I'm not criticizing football players. That's not my point.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:26.070)
Wow. Wow.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:33.666)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ⁓ yeah

Daniel S Ellenberg (6:43.502)
But it's more that we have these very simplistic ways of orienting toward people in general, toward women, know, toward men and putting it in these little camps and, you know, stereotypes. And to me, it's like, you can show up differently as a man. It's not like every man is the same. Not every man is built like a football player, for sure. God, you make me. You know, but the reality is

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:6.720)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (7:12.568)
people show up differently. And for me, I long to live in a world where you can be you and not have to fit into this little cookie cutter ⁓ shape. And to me, we're talking about on some level guys like individuality, like really, really, you're such an individual, like you're completely conformist. ⁓ You're fitting in to this particular category to be, I'm a real man, but you're doing it in a way that
You can look this guy's doing it, that guy's doing it, and it starts early. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:43.562)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, ⁓ I would say I remember even early on, I liked a rough house. I like to do this stuff with my kid. And I remember when I would be doing that with my daughter, Abby, if she somehow was hurt in any way, like, let's say I got too rough, I would immediately be like, I'm sorry. And I'd be like, let me give you a hug. But if my son did it, I'd be like, dude, come on, it's not that big a deal. Like you're not that I was like, I was so

Daniel S Ellenberg (7:51.277)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:10.848)
annoyed by it. Like, I'd be like, why are you crying about that? You barely got her whereas with if my daughter's ever expressed that, I would have been much more compassionate and empathetic. But with him, I just struggled. ⁓ Seeing that as helpful, even though it seemed natural to care about it, it almost felt like I was going to create some weakness in him that I was afraid he would have, you know.

Daniel S Ellenberg (8:33.218)
Well, hopefully you didn't name him Sue. think about the Johnny Cash song, Boy Named Sue, I Did This to Make You Trust. But that is a reality there. I mean, there are a lot of parents like you two, you know, who are trying to raise sensitive boys and to be compassionate and empathic, you know, connected. And then they send them to school and then again, ⁓ get shamed for that.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:35.851)
I know, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:40.180)
⁓ yes. ⁓ Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:51.714)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:0.503)
Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (9:2.572)
And so it's like this really ⁓ weird world in a way, because the world is changing, but it hasn't changed. Now, we have these ways where, you know, there's like a movement for guys to become more emotional, but then there's an aggressive, you know, or a pushback to this. And no, let's go back to the old ways. I think that the difficulty is uncertainty, you know, in a way, and just the ambiguity about how do you show up? ⁓
Having worked with a lot of guys and having kind of read a lot and really being involved with ⁓ men's psychology essentially. ⁓ It's very clear that a lot of men are super confused about like, is a man? Like, what's a real man? What does that mean even? Instead of they get things like, you're fine the way you are, be a tough guy and there is no such thing as toxic mess. The term I don't like at all. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:46.156)
Yeah. ⁓
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:0.620)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (10:1.998)
And then there's like, don't, excuse me, can I, I'm going to say it. a lot of, you know, some of the messages are like the best a guy can be is not an asshole. And that's not inspiring the guys. So I just kind of go like, it's, it's kind of wrongheaded. And so I tend to look at things through, how do we actually increase a word that most people never think about, which is the word is complexity. Meaning.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:11.306)
Yes, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:28.482)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel S Ellenberg (10:29.708)
that we all have different aspects of our personality. I I from you, I can be very tough in certain ways and very unyielding and like, this is what I believe and I stand on this and other ways where I can be, I don't know exactly how I feel about this and maybe I feel insecure. I feel strong and confident in some ways and weaker ⁓ and more vulnerable and more hesitant in other ways. But to recognize that
We're not just one ⁓ thing. We're not one being. We're not always the same. And if we always have to be the same, it's like the Abraham Maslow line, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And you need more tools in life. Sometimes you need to be yielding and open and listen. Sometimes you need to stand up and speak your mind. ⁓ But it's like, how do you do it? What do you base it on? And so in many ways,
you actually have to have a deeper relationship with yourself, which is you have to know yourself. Or should I say you have to know yourselves ⁓ more. ⁓ And so to be able to look within and go, this is really ⁓ what's going on. Awareness, self-awareness is a crucial thing. And a lot of guys, they just learn, don't look inside. It's just like be on the outside and be tough and be strong and be in control.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:31.446)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:37.803)
Mmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:51.852)
Yeah. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (11:57.378)
And you never really get to ⁓ notice when actually in a ⁓ situation where you actually feel scared and that's real. And that, you're not supposed to be feeling that way. Right? So you shouldn't be feeling that way, but you do, you know, and so how do you actually become congruent, you know, with yourself? And the first part of it has to be with like, ⁓ okay. There is a way, or there's a part of me that feels scared right now.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:5.772)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (12:27.158)
And then have compassion for yourself. my God, there's I think self-compassion, right? You have have compassion for yourself around, yeah, it's understandable ⁓ that you would. I mean, you're on a plane and it's going like this, ⁓ and you go, you know, but you're not supposed to be scared. Like your body is reacting to that. And then your mind can be somewhere else. And so a lot of the work is about bringing those together.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:33.292)
Yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (12:56.652)
and how you become more integrated.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:59.392)
Well, ⁓ I want to jump off of that real quick because Sarah and I were just talking about, you know, our youngest plays soccer and she does competitive soccer. And there's times where dads will be yelling, right? Dads will be yelling at the kids. ⁓ And for the most part, I don't, I don't mess with that. Like if they're yelling at their own team, whatever, I don't think it's, you know, I've done my own work not to do that. I don't think it's helpful for them to do it, but then there'll be a time where they'll yelling at the ref. And lots of times these refs ⁓ are young, you know, teenagers or something.
at right and so then I will I tell Sarah like I will ⁓ say something to them and typically it is something kind of aggressive like I'll tell them to shut up I'll say shut up stop talking direct and I told Sarah like I feel like there's probably a better way to do it but I feel like in order to speak that guy's language I have to say it in this aggressive way and then recently when I did this one of the guys said to me hey what are you gonna do about

Daniel S Ellenberg (13:43.918)
Thank

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:54.710)
And ⁓ I felt when he said that I did feel some fear, but I quickly turned that fear into this anger that said, I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm just telling you to shut your mouth. And like, just said it like that. And then the guy, the guy didn't say anything else, right? So I didn't have to get aggressive, but I did say it in a way that probably wasn't kind. ⁓ wasn't, you know, like I wasn't like proud per se of how I handled it, but it got the job done.
And, but I did feel as a guy, there is this like the fear pops up and then I quickly convert that into anger. And then I use the anger then to get control seemingly of the situation. And I just don't want my son thinking that's the only way to do that.

Daniel S Ellenberg (14:38.254)
Well, apparently there isn't the only way to do that, huh? I mean, obviously you're thinking that this isn't the best way. What's the best way? But I think that for all of us, you know, we learn certain cultural memes and themes that get internalized. They become part of us and it's all part of survival. I have to do this to fit in, be part of that particular group or clan or tribe or whatever that is.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:41.292)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:47.179)
Yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (15:7.822)
becomes standard fare until we recognize that, you know what, that doesn't feel quite right. It's like kind of warmer, warmer, warmer, hotter, colder, colder, colder. Like you start moving towards coldness in a certain way and go, really, what is my intent here? My intent is in this case for this guy to pipe down, to not do this, what seems abusive and you feel protective. I mean, that's a...

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:30.070)
Yeah. ⁓
Yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (15:36.846)
cool, good impulse you want to protect. And so to find a way to communicate that in a way that maybe could even be potentially educational for that guy, like going over and saying, on, know, he's just a young kid. You know, like it's probably really hard for him to hear that from a grown man. Like something like that.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:1.740)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (16:5.742)
You guys are go, oh god, you got these right shoes, you know. But if you do it in a way where you're not just directly doing this thing, it's probably better. I know a little bit about this myself, having been more that way. I'm a bunch older than you, and I've been through the school of hard knocks. fact, I've through several of those schools. And I just find that...

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:22.091)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (16:35.182)
People in general are much more willing to listen and be open if you approach them in a way where you respect their humanity. And also, yeah, that this guy is just conditioned. He's like acting like a machine in a certain way. He's been conditioned that way. His father was probably like that. You know, it's passed down through the generations. And it's like, how much is a person really?
acting on their own individual inclinations and how much are they just being more habitual, know, and I'm addicted to this old way of being.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:8.246)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:13.578)
I think there's this like pressure I feel as I parent a boy and I think, man, if I send him out there and I can see that he is thoughtful, that he's got a lot, it's, you know, he easily kind of sees where the other person's come from, coming from, and he approaches them with this softer, you know, vulnerability, and then they just like eat him alive, ⁓ you know? ⁓ And it's how do I prepare, how do I help him hold on to that?
That's a great skill and that's the direction I'd love to see the world be able to come where people can come together and communicate and listen to each other, but at the same time prepare him for...
this, that's not how everybody is and that's not how everything is. So how do I help him be able to be in that world, but hang on to this world? And if that makes sense, how can I do that? What do I do with him now to prepare him? And Daniel, even in that, you know, on top of that is this idea that we think the world could do this better. You know, we want our son to be somebody.

Daniel S Ellenberg (18:18.037)
You

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:18.540)
who changes it and makes it ⁓ a better place, right? But then there's also how do we help him in the meantime also navigate, because I see so many boys his age who are very empathetic and kind, and they're just so heartbroken that other boys are so mean to each other, and that they purposely will mock them, ⁓ they don't, they're almost like confused, like ⁓ why would you do that? And so then they're just like stunned in those moments about how to ⁓ respond, you know?

Daniel S Ellenberg (18:47.662)
Well, they're not almost confused. I mean, they are confused. mean, it doesn't make sense to them. I mean, this is where education comes in. And education, most importantly, happens in the house. And so I just be very direct, you know, and literally say, like, I love your sensitivity. It's a beautiful thing. It's actually a superpower to be able to do that. And if you can hold on to that as a guy,

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:49.644)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (19:16.650)
it becomes a major superpower as you get older. And so I want to honor that sensitivity in you ⁓ and prepare you for the way the world is. Not the way, not the world that we would like to see, but the way the world is currently. ⁓ We, we ourselves want to be change makers, you know, in this world. And ideally, ⁓ you will be also. ⁓ So ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:33.665)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:43.618)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (19:45.006)
We don't recommend that you just cry all the time. There are times when you have to be really looking at, this the best time to bring out, oh, that hurt my feelings when there are four kids who are calling you a pussy, a horrible name, but is that the best time to do that? And the answer is probably no, it's not. That doesn't mean you have to completely annihilate your own sense of sensitivity.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:2.764)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (20:14.350)
But it does mean at that particular moment, and this is why I'm talking about flexibility really, at this moment, it's like this is a time for a boundary. This is not a time to be open arms. This is a time to say no and to trust your knowing this is not okay. And sometimes you just need to just stand up. Like that Churchill line, stand up and speak. This is not a time to necessarily be yielding. And to recognize that that

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:27.221)
Sure.

Daniel S Ellenberg (20:44.610)
That is just part of how you grow up so that ⁓ when you go in different situations and circumstances with different people, you're able to draw on different parts of yourself. And that's actually the highest form of intelligence. Because if you want to be a truly smart person, the best way to do that is to be able to read people and to be able to see how, know, given my values and to be clear about those values,

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:0.504)
Mmm.

Daniel S Ellenberg (21:13.506)
How can I express my values through my behavior in a way that's going to be the most intelligent? And that can be very different in different ways. I sometimes ⁓ anger like yelling. That may be the appropriate thing to do. It doesn't mean like never yell. I hear some of this parenting advice he says, never say no to your child. Like what world are you living in?

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:22.423)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:30.198)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:37.676)
Yes, yes. ⁓ Yes, yes.

Daniel S Ellenberg (21:40.782)
⁓ Like no is a microaggression come on I'm so extreme, you know in certain ways, but then it's like ⁓ you can't always say yes, but helping you say no ⁓ with kindness Right. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:43.756)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:55.476)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, ⁓ yeah, yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (22:0.814)
And to recognize these kids, preparing them for the world is, you know, that's a big thing. And the more that they can actually feel like, you can be a, ⁓ I these weird like superhero, you know, things, ⁓ really you can, like, you choose different role models as men and who are, can be, ⁓ in my language, they can be strong and heartful. They're not mutually exclusive. They're actually part of being an intelligent.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:12.470)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (22:29.720)
human being.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:31.446)
Yeah. Well, as you're talking, I'm picturing, Daniel, I'm picturing if I was going to be this man ⁓ for my son and to show him is in these moments like you described, I'm picturing these moments when kids are making fun of you. ⁓ And I'm like, what did I do as a kid? Back then, I would lean into my anger and I would just get bigger. I would get more aggressive and I would quote unquote, make those kids stop.
by being meaner, right? But really in that moment, I know I'm just reacting to the fear and I'm trying to control the fear by being scary actually and trying to get them away from, you know? ⁓ But what is cool, I did see some, I have seen some adults do this or some kids do this, where in those moments,
it's not that they don't care. You some kids will go that direction. They'll get hard and just not care. And the kids will make fun of them and they'll say, yeah, I don't care what they say. ⁓ But then there's other kids who don't take it personal. And they realize that what those kids are doing and saying is about them. And it's actually not about you at all. And then they can actually say something pretty smart in that moment or pretty witty in that moment or something that completely changes the whole interaction. And the kids are all of a like,
laughing like I remember there's one kid he was really short I was helping and he would get made fun of a lot for being short and then I asked him one day like what's so great about being short he said I I win at hide and seek all the time ⁓ and so I said hey why don't you try that next time the bully picks on you and he makes fun of you just say hey if you wanted to play hide and seek I would totally kick your butt and he said that the kid laughed he's like dude you would what's the coolest place you've hidden and then it just turned that whole and and so what I was trying to help him do
was not, I didn't want him to just be like, don't care what that kid says, it doesn't matter what he says, because it does matter what he says. But he was able then to feel secure in who he was as just a kid who was height challenged, ⁓ and he was able to turn that situation around to a humorous one.

Daniel S Ellenberg (24:32.205)
Exactly. I mean, if you can draw on humor, if you think about these potential conflicts as a challenge, in a way, let's face it, guys are going to challenge each other. I if you look in the animal kingdom, it's like you look at these male bucks and slamming their horns on each other. This is part of the process. I mean,
Where I have some challenges some of these days about the parent, like everyone wins a medal and ⁓ we're all, you know, there's no real competition. Come on, seriously. I mean, that's not what life is. The issue is really around, okay, if you're to be competitive, there are certain contexts where there's a winner and loser. I mean, let's face it. ⁓ Part of the reason why people love sports is like, it's just so dynamic that you know it's going to come to a conclusion.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:2.711)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:16.546)
Yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (25:25.942)
And there's going to be a yes or a no. And in life, a lot of times it's way more ambiguous than that. Was I successful? Well, I mean, it's like, it's not clear, but there are certain, certain arenas where it is very clear, you know, who won, who lost, and it's gripping. ⁓ I mean, personally, I think that's cool. think a lot of guys get shamed around being competitive. And I think that that's wrong headed. mean, literally the etymology of the word.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:37.068)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (25:54.698)
means to strive together. Right. And so I think about I'm a tennis fan. ⁓ So I think about these two new Bucks, you know, who are Alcares and Sinner, ⁓ incredible players. And ⁓ they like each other ⁓ off the court. But on the court, they're happy that the other one exists because it pushes them to keep getting better. And I think that when we look at competition in that way,

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:56.866)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:5.100)
Yes, of course, Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:17.196)
Yes. ⁓ Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (26:23.022)
that the other person is not, the other team, they're not enemies. That's why I get so concerned politically, like I would be an enemy for their opponents. They're not in agreement with you, then they're trying to win, but they shouldn't be disregarded or treated as subhuman. In some way, they can be used as catalysts. And a lot of the parts of life, they're not competitive, but that mentality, if that filters into your marriage,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:30.242)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:40.800)
Yes, yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (26:53.282)
You know, when you're constantly trying to win an argument, I know that's not happening between you two, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:57.624)
⁓ it did did early on. You're hitting exactly. We had to learn our way through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (27:2.525)
I'm actually joking because there's no one to come in. I mean, so it's like to recognize that that's a certain mindset that may be more appropriate in a different context. And that's why I really emphasize the importance of know your context. What context are you in? like, guys, we mess with each other, you know, and frankly get shamed by women.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:26.156)
Yep, yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (27:29.710)
You know, at times like, you guys are so like this or that. like, it's like, you don't understand. This is actually where the guys connect. Like I, I, I, I love women. have many women in my life and they don't mess like, like men do. I mean, that's just the reality. And guys, you know, when my son, you know, what picked up a stick when he was little, my wife was shocked. She wasn't used to that. Like what? You know, it was like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:30.498)
Yep. Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:57.248)
Yes.

Daniel S Ellenberg (27:59.182)
Was that because he was, you know, shamed? No, it's just, it's a natural, organic, hardwired way of being. And I think that what we really need to do is work with the way things are, not what we think they should be. And so, you know, there's a reason why there've been rites of passage throughout history, you know, with the boys are separate. I think some of them are like way, way too intense. And I'm not in agreement with some of you have to break bones and...

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:14.711)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (28:28.878)
You're supposed to come back and not look at women and like that's insane. It's too extreme. But there is a way that guys will play with each other. Like I think about I left a water bottle at my gym. I stopped by there yesterday to pick it up and the owner of the gym, he said he's kind of like he kind of picks it up and gives it to me. says, you know, I drank out of this. You know, he's kind of with me, you know, in a way. And I said, really?
I hope it tasted really good. then I said to him, I look at you right now, I think you have less hair. I think what happened is. And so we do a couple of people who were standing by, they started laughing about it. It was like this little, like it was a little competition. And that's what

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:1.267)
Hahaha

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:11.321)
Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:24.428)
Yes, yeah, yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (29:28.120)
For me, part of my relationship with friends is like, like that. In college, I will often be a person who's gonna poke first. And you kind of like see, how does somebody respond? Can I play with this person? Because a lot of times ⁓ what happens with guys is that they're, if I can say, they're effing with each other in some way. Can you take this? Like, can I bring out this part of my personality with you? And if you get like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:42.188)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:50.624)
Yeah, yeah, ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (29:57.882)
that if you go into like that hurt my feelings, ⁓ okay. But then if you can say that like that was too far. Right. And that, that I think is an area that I'd like to see male friendships evolve, you know, because a lot of times what happens is guys are like playing with these, they're playing and then someone actually gets hurt. ⁓ They're all fun and games until someone gets a stick in their eye kind of thing. And then ⁓
They don't have the resources to say, was too far, right? Because then that's weak in some way. What happens is play turns into threat. And this is where a lot of negative stuff happens. And if you can recognize that, okay, all of sudden I feel threatened here and my reaction is to be aggressive or hostile in reaction, then that triggers the other.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:55.405)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (30:56.170)
a playful interaction can ⁓ turn into a fight. It happens very often and it certainly happens with boys. And I'd like to see where there's just kind of an education ⁓ there that's like, you know, it's cool to be competitive and to play and mess around and everything. ⁓ And sometimes people get hurt, including you. And how do you have the resources and really the emotional awareness to recognize when that's happening?
and to be willing to speak to that and have people who are like, okay, I got it. I went too far here. ⁓ Having been someone who, I led menace group, weekly menace groups for 40 years. ⁓ I don't believe that make doing something for 10,000 hours like Malcolm Cladwell believe that I'm a master. But if that were the case, I would be a master. I did it so long, stopped that a year and a half ago when I turned 70.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:32.460)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:44.160)
Yes. ⁓ Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:53.846)
Yeah, wow, yes. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (31:57.757)
Just keep getting old and it's weird. So, but what I see in these groups is like people mess around with each other. It's not like just, oh yes, we're going to be like, that's part of it. And yet sometimes when we get, what just happened there? Well, piss me off when he said that. What happened? We'll go underneath the level of that. Well, it seemed like he was calling me weak.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:59.659)
Yes. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (32:24.462)
Do you any fears about that yourself? Well, sure, everyone does. And that triggered me, and then I got defensive and I attacked there. And so part of the work is really around developing an awareness about your inner landscape. And one of the big problems with guys is that we learn not to pay attention to that. And that's a massive problem because most of what's going on is actually outside of awareness.
So we're reacting from a humanimal perspective and more that you can actually tune in and that's actually what's happening, and to be able to communicate that. And so I think about ⁓ how much ⁓ courage that takes, really. We're trying to expand ⁓ the definition of courage in a book I just finished called Strength with Heart, Redefining Manhood Without Losing the Man.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:11.735)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:22.988)
Yeah, it's awesome.

Daniel S Ellenberg (33:23.214)
you know, in there, you know, is really around like you can do takes courage to look inside and to be with that which is super uncomfortable, super vulnerable. And it takes courage to speak, you know, interpersonal courage, not just you're a jerk, but also like that hurt my feelings. You know, that you lost me on that. I was with a friend.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:46.475)
Yeah, yep. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (33:51.572)
in Denver, we were at American Psychological Association convention. We were out to dinner and very close friends, connection, co-author of my book. And I started talking about a situation that was very vulnerable for me, which is that my wife was having an upcoming surgery and she was afraid of not making it. She made it. We're on the other side of August 26th. This is being, and I started talking about it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:12.546)
Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (34:17.422)
And he immediately started talking about his wife who had some medical issue. And I was kind of like, that's too soon. Like, you didn't hear me. Like you heard it long enough to remind you about something about yourself. Right. And I know myself well enough to know that if I don't say something, I'm going to disconnect. Right. And so I just said something very quickly. just said, know, know, Fred, I was just talking about this and it's kind of like, you know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:25.238)
Yes, yes ⁓
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:36.652)
Yeah, yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (34:46.562)
I didn't feel like he really heard me out. ⁓ And I didn't say like, my God, I'm crushed by it. I wasn't crushed by it, it ⁓ was a little bit of an ouch there. And I said something to him and goes, yeah, I got it. he, like, ⁓ because we work with each other like that. We speak about what comes up in real time there. And that's part of being in relationship. And just going back to the boy crisis, really. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:48.652)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:52.714)
Yes, that's right. Yes.
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:4.384)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:14.614)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (35:15.202)
from the books on this, boys learn to disconnect early and because of this shaming and blaming, going, you're weak, you didn't do that, no, I'm not, ⁓ no. And so ⁓ here we have this massive crisis of disconnection that's going on and we're not dealing with very well. So when you think about, ⁓ I'm sure your son, you know, was super.
sweet and connected, ⁓ want to be held and everything like that. And then learn somehow that that's not cool to want to be touched and then they disconnect. ⁓ That's wrong-headed. That's where our culture is completely off. It's not the only one. know, it's not like somehow, what is it, ⁓ if you sparing the rod, you know, what's that, what the, ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:56.822)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:8.376)
spoil the child. Spare the rod, spoil the child. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (36:11.022)
⁓ Spare the rod. Like, come on. Seriously. That's not real. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:15.404)
Yeah. I feel like I see with our son, you know, I feel like I almost have to just intentionally watch him when he's had these interactions or I see these moments ⁓ and I have to, ⁓ be very intentional about checking in with him later, you know, ⁓ and, ⁓ following up with what was going on inside of you in that moment, you know, and cause I see him either toughen up sometimes or
or keep his, you and it depends on the direction he goes. You know, I feel like I've got to check in and help him. What was going on inside? Why did, you know, why did you go that direction? What, was the messaging in your head? You know, and that's even where we found out one time that he had this messaging. Well, I'm a guy. I've got to learn how to be angry. I got to be angry here, you know, cause men are angry and conversations come up, but it, but on my side of it.

Daniel S Ellenberg (36:49.870)
Exactly.

Daniel S Ellenberg (37:2.318)
Right. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:7.742)
I have to do the work of going to him and paying attention and checking in because I don't know how long that message would have run its course without noticing and without
you know, coming up and saying, Whoa, what was going on there? Why'd you go that direction in that interaction? Yeah, it was really great that Sarah noticed that because then I gave me the opportunity to like touch bait. Like, have I shown you that? Is that something I've and sometimes he's like, Yeah, like people I've pointed out in movies, like, I like how that guy said that they're typically saying it like a really passionate, almost angry way. And that's just actually not his personality that doesn't so so that he feels like I think there's this
I need to be more like that, even though that's not me. ⁓ And so I was like, dude, you don't need to be like that. ⁓ And so Sarah being able to notice that, be sensitive to that, I've always told Sarah, when you see those things, please let me know because I just don't see them as much. I'm just not as aware of them when those happen, those little nuances in him. And she sees them, she tells me, and then I can go back and connect with him on them too.

Daniel S Ellenberg (38:1.006)
⁓ Right?

Daniel S Ellenberg (38:9.782)
Nice. ⁓ If you think about, like in this case, anger, like what's the purpose? I'm thinking about like on some level, all behavior is related to some ⁓ intention, some desire, some outcome there. And so anger, from an evolutionary perspective, is generally seen as an experience that someone has transgressed on your boundaries. Get them out.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:24.055)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:35.992)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Daniel S Ellenberg (38:38.742)
of your boundaries. You want to have your grounded being. So that's the purpose of it. And so with your son, ⁓ what does he want? ⁓ What's underneath that? ⁓ What's the ⁓ fear or the concern or the question or doubt ⁓ there? And then it's like, is there another way of ⁓ affecting the outcome you're wanting in a different way that's more consonant?
with your personality. I suggest that just to yell at people is not a good, in general, I don't care what your wiring is, it's just counterproductive overall. But having your boundaries is very important because sometimes you don't know when you've stepped over somebody's boundaries unless they tell you. Someone could be super introverted and you're talking too long.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:18.634)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (39:38.440)
is a boundary violation for them. matter say anything. And so what do they do? They kind of shut down. If you think about, you know, basic defenses, the four F's, ⁓ you know, fight, flight, freeze, fawn, you know, and so you fight, ⁓ you just freeze or run away on some level. ⁓ And people have different defensive strategies. Now the guy's strategy is usually it's considered the fight, just fight, right?

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:40.214)
Yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (40:8.460)
But that's not true. That's not just the reality for any guy. ⁓ There's no one who just fights. Sometimes they freeze. Sometimes they flee. Sometimes they fawn, meaning they appease, you know, essentially when actually they don't feel that way. Generally, like when you look at male and female defenses, women would definitely ⁓ more likely fawn than fight. You know, and that's just part of what's taught. And maybe it's part of that being

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:12.568)
you
Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (40:36.864)
you know, biologically weaker than most men. That's fine. It mean better or worse. You know, it just means that there's differences and you have to find out what ⁓ do I really want in this? And that has to do with an awareness about what ⁓ is it like? I want this, like I think about my father who was a major rager. He only had fight. I mean, it was ⁓ just amazing. was his whole deal. And then he died at 49.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:0.403)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (41:5.474)
you know, of a heart attack. it was like, you're real strong there, right? Because you're fighting time and nobody ⁓ will mess with you. And then you go to an early grave, you know. And he ⁓ really, a lot of times, wanted love. And he ⁓ just yelled at people because he wanted to be loved. And it's like, ⁓ how well is that working for you? ⁓ It's not. And so to be aware about what do you actually want,

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:9.462)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:28.246)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (41:33.590)
is really crucial and then we don't teach kids this. You know, it's like, I'm always amazed like, ⁓ what is education really about? ⁓ really like, education is arbitrary. know, ⁓ is what's put together and this is what's going to prepare you for being a human being in life.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:36.898)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:42.666)
Yes. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (41:56.876)
If I were ⁓ reorganizing ⁓ general education, I certainly wouldn't do what we're doing in general. ⁓ I'd start off with ⁓ the main R first, which is relationships. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:4.053)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:11.382)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Well, you know, it's interesting you say that because I think so many teenagers would feel the same as you. They're saying like, why are we doing education this way? ⁓ I think and I think it's coming to that point. But ⁓ on that point of education, what I'd ask you in kind of like wrapping this up ⁓ is let's say you have a dad or mom listening to this podcast and their heart ⁓ and their their goal is to raise a son ⁓ who is strong but has is connected to their heart as well.
and they're not just toughening up and getting hard, because they saw that in their childhood, they didn't like it, but they also fear they're gonna raise a kid who, for a lack of a better term, is a snowflake or is somehow a wuss, right? So ⁓ what would you say would be those first steps or ways in which they ⁓ could approach that to raise a son like

Daniel S Ellenberg (43:3.276)
I would say like, if you really want to have good relationships with people, you need to know yourself better. ⁓ In our book, Sphineth with Heart, the first place we start, we have nine guide posts ⁓ of Sphineth with Heart and it starts with noticing. And noticing is another way of talking about awareness, ⁓ which is noticing what you're actually experiencing and to pay attention to your body. ⁓
so many people, it's not just men, you know, get disconnected from like what is really going on inside here and it turns out it's not so easy, you know, to know that we can fabulous, we make up stories about narratives about really what we're feeling but oftentimes, you know, we're convinced but we're wrong. ⁓ And so I would really focus on what, you know, when Johnny did XYZ, what was that like? I got really angry. Okay, you got really angry. But let's go a little

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:34.348)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:50.231)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (44:1.484)
little deeper. Did you feel threatened in some way? Yeah, I definitely felt threatened. Okay, so what do do when you feel threatened? You know, I get, you know, is there another way of taking care of that sense of threat that's going to make you feel actually better in the end? ⁓ And to be more kind of aware of that way? Because, you know, as human animals, we live really between this first portal of

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:4.375)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (44:30.446)
perception, is, you know, basically safety versus threat, trust versus distrust, know, friend or foe. That's the first order of it. Like we're just meeting for the first time. There's going to be that organization around like, we're not going to be thinking better consciously, but unconsciously that's like as an animal, just like any other animal, you know, it's like they're, they're organized, you know, around that. My son is introduced.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:34.754)
Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (44:59.160)
just introduce his cat to his girlfriend's dog. And ⁓ they're like checking each other out and like it's safe, friend versus foe, safety versus, ⁓ that's life. ⁓ And so I would educate the kids around that there are major parts of life and that ⁓ you need to find a way to feel safe in yourself. And then how do you do that? What are the ways that you can feel safe in yourself? Be it through your words.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:12.182)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (45:28.238)
or through your actions in some way, recognize that it's very easy to feel threatened. And that's actually the best way to control people. You see this politically, just threaten people, scare the heck out of them, and they'll follow you. And that's, it's a tried and true way of tyrants throughout through the beginning of human history. That's how you do it, right? You get people scared and they'll get in line.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:38.264)
⁓ Yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (45:55.948)
We want people to feel safe. We want our children to feel safe. What's going to maximize the probability of you feeling safe? ⁓ And so ⁓ there's a whole process by which of really kind of bringing this out. I mean, if you think about education, ⁓ I love etymology. It turns out that there are two different ⁓ words for education. One is educare, which means to put in from without.
which is basically what education often is these days. You're teaching someone, you're something in this so-called empty vessel. And the other is a giserre, which means to draw out from within. ⁓ We don't do that. ⁓ But that's a major part of education. That's a part of how I would reorganize ⁓ the whole educational process around how do you...

Kyle And Sara Wester (46:38.336)
Mmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (46:51.436)
get people to learn from within. And so part of it has to do with inquiry. So if the kid comes home and someone bullied him in school, what was that like for you? Don't go out like, don't go fight him, go out, don't take no shit from him, like go out and fight him. No, it's just like what actually happened besides you? And help that kid develop awareness. Well, actually my heart started really racing. And what did that tell me? I actually felt nervous. And what did you want to do then? I wanted to run away, but I couldn't run.

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:5.558)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (47:21.006)
⁓ So what are other ways that you could handle this? ⁓ How do you set your boundaries in a way that's going to ⁓ help you to feel safe? Are there people you can talk to about this? And so we're not thinking like that. You know, as parents, our job, I believe, is to help them develop a better internal narrative, to understand more about what's going on so that they have greater internal resources.

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:34.113)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:44.054)
Yes, yep. Yep.

Daniel S Ellenberg (47:50.324)
and external resources. ⁓ I had clients who were bullied as kids, they never told their parents because they told their parents they would never. I mean, it's amazing. Like, for you. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:52.022)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (47:57.825)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (48:2.230)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. well, yeah, and what I love about that. any anybody listening when you're hearing this idea of these intentional conversations ⁓ with your kids, the thing I love about parenting, Daniel is
doing that with my son has made me ⁓ more a man who is strong and has heart. Because like, mean, there have been moments where I've reacted, I'm thinking of a moment where I was really proud of him, where he was probably like five, and there was something he was doing and I wanted him ⁓ to give this pen back to his sister and he was caught up whenever he was doing and I took it as like a personal offense that he wasn't listening to me. So I grabbed the pen from him ⁓ and he looked at me and he said, you didn't need to do that. ⁓
I was about to give it to her, but like, you don't want me grabbing things from you. Why would you do it to me? And I just, in that moment, it was so, I just felt such pride. I was like, that was awesome. ⁓ Way to go, man. You just called me out and kind of like called something out of me that I don't want to be that kind of person who just goes and grabs things from people, you know? That I could have in that moment been more self-controlled, been more patient. I didn't need to take it personal.
You know, and the fact that I even told him, said, Brendan, the fact that you could do that to me when I looked scary, I bet I looked scary. He's like, you looked really scary. I said, but you still stood up to me and you told me not to treat you that way. That was awesome.

Daniel S Ellenberg (49:27.650)
See, that says a lot about you, Kyle. See, I think that's fantastic role modeling. mean, there a lot of guys who would not have done the same thing. They were taken as a competition, right? My son is messing with me, I'm the boss, and I'm going to vanquish him right now. I'm going to squish him. And instead of that, you were actually able to step back and go, wow, that's cool, and be respectful, and recognize that he is a separate being.

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:38.508)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:44.482)
Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (49:50.560)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel S Ellenberg (49:56.462)
and you treated him with integrity, you know, as an integral being there and you acknowledge that capacity in him. So that reinforced that rather than, you know, just say, just do what I say, you know, go to your room or hit the kid, which, sadly that happened. So give yourself credit for that, Kyle.

Kyle And Sara Wester (50:10.378)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah. And there's other times where I probably have ⁓ sensed that competitive thing in me and even told Sarah, like, feel like I just need to get bigger than him in this moment. I need to like almost overwhelm him with my bigness to let him know he can't get bigger than me. And those moments, I know I'm reverting back to what my dad would have done. And I know there's ⁓ so many dads I know that I get to help and moms.
who really want to learn that balance. And I really feel like you've helped them at least see that today, what that could look like, you know? Because they really want to raise these boys who do know how to be strong and stand up for themselves, but they don't have to do it by dehumanizing other people to do it. ⁓ They actually, what's beautiful about doing it with strength and heart is you actually humanize yourself and the other person by setting those boundaries with them, you know?

Daniel S Ellenberg (51:3.192)
So.

Daniel S Ellenberg (51:11.502)
Absolutely.

Kyle And Sara Wester (51:15.104)
And that's our goal and that's how we want to raise all our kids, ⁓ but definitely our son in this world that gives all these mixed messages. So I would ask you, Daniel, how could, people want to know more about your work, you've mentioned your book, but what's some ways that they can ⁓ get connected with you or even have coaching with you if they wanted that?

Daniel S Ellenberg (51:33.452)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not doing a lot of coaching these days. I'm doing mainly ⁓ leadership coaching, know, and organizations. And I see what Lyn's going to say something about leadership, you know, which is that ⁓ when you look at the most respected leaders in general, they actually are like that. They're actually able to admit when they were off, you know, to acknowledge what, you know, I chose this direction, clearly not working.

Kyle And Sara Wester (51:39.498)
great. Okay.

Daniel S Ellenberg (52:2.734)
⁓ There's an old Turkish saying that no matter how far you've gone in the wrong direction, there's no shame in turning back. ⁓ But a lot of ⁓ guys will just keep going. Like, you know, I'm not finding the sunset running east. I just have to run faster. You know, like, ⁓ no, you need to change your strategy. ⁓ Now, open your mind. ⁓ There's like a matrix, right? Open your mind. You know, and so in terms of getting in touch with...

Kyle And Sara Wester (52:17.496)
⁓ Yes. Yeah, yeah. ⁓
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.

Daniel S Ellenberg (52:32.010)
rewireleadership.com, ⁓ R-E-wireleadership.com. And there's also strengthwithheart.com. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (52:34.337)
Okay, okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (52:41.368)
Okay, and remind us the name of the book again.

Daniel S Ellenberg (52:44.534)
It's called strength. It's not out yet. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (52:46.376)
Okay, ⁓ it's coming out. Okay, when's it coming out?

Daniel S Ellenberg (52:49.710)
⁓ We were actually speaking to an agent in a couple hours. ⁓ We're early. ⁓ The book is done, ⁓ but we're early into that stage. But I'll be doing ⁓ a ⁓ long training for men ⁓ next year. So if people reach out, they can find out about it. It'll be primarily online, even people like you.

Kyle And Sara Wester (52:57.494)
Yes. ⁓ Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (53:13.504)
Yes, yeah, I great. Now, once you mentioned, I was like, I want to read that book. Dang it, it's not out yet. ⁓ well, we want to thank you so much, Jaina, for taking the time to talk with us because ⁓ this is really something so many people are looking for help on and trying to get this mix just right, you know? Because we really want to raise some boys that do change this world ⁓ and just create a different expectation from having just to be hard and strong.

Daniel S Ellenberg (53:36.846)
Exactly. We need to change the paradigm. I also want acknowledge you two because you've both been very honest about yourselves. And that's what's important. Like we are human beings where we are all flawed in our own ways and we're all great in our own ways. And just to recognize that there is no perfection when we make mistakes, it's not about perfection because that implies never making a mistake, which is absurd.

Kyle And Sara Wester (54:3.384)
Yeah. ⁓

Daniel S Ellenberg (54:4.302)
⁓ The whole thing that practice makes perfect, that's BS. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes better, not perfect. ⁓ Being able to course correct, which is really at the core of excellence, is what it's not. You make mistakes and like, okay, what can I learn from that rather than what's wrong with me? he did it. It's his fault or his fault. Take some responsibility there.

Kyle And Sara Wester (54:7.522)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (54:26.614)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. any listeners who want to know more about his work, definitely go check out the websites and we'll put those in the show notes and then hopefully he'll get his book out sometime soon to help us men be able to understand this better. Okay, so thank you. ⁓ Have a great day.

Daniel S Ellenberg (54:45.503)
Hopefully.

Daniel S Ellenberg (54:50.030)
Thank you. ⁓