Episode 189

Episode 189 Transcript:

I know early on when our kids were small, one of the biggest conflicts we had in our marriage and in our parenting, I'm sure you can relate, was ⁓ sleep and the lack of it. ⁓ And I really feel like there was so many arguments that were happening about, we doing it correctly? Why is our kid not sleeping? Why are other people telling us that their kids are sleeping and ⁓ our kids should be sleeping better? And everybody had thoughts on it.
But a big thing that we wanted to eventually lean into was kind of trusting ourselves, trusting our instincts. And I think too often in our culture, we're taught not to trust ourselves. Yeah, that it's great to listen to experts, it's great to read books, we wanna get more ⁓ knowledge, but inevitably, we wanna be able to also listen to ourselves and know how to instinctually kind of raise our kids and sleep is just such a great.
starting point when they're little. And so we wanted to bring Tracy from raised good. She's just killing it over on Instagram right now is one of the biggest voices when it comes to sleep, but also learning how to parent more instinctually, trusting yourself, learning how to lead your kids and guide them and trusting that they want to follow you. And so I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. It's going to fill you up with more hope that you are exactly the parent your kids need. And so if you haven't already, please take a moment to pause.
to rate, review, to comment on the podcast. That's really helpful to us to reach more families. Definitely share this podcast as well, and then sit back and get ready to enjoy this conversation with Tracy from Raised Good.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.090)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And Sarah, today we have a special guest ⁓ that we're gonna get the opportunity to talk about a subject we haven't really hit a lot upon, right? I mean, she's definitely gonna talk about many things that we do touch upon and I wanted her voice to kind of share her thoughts on it, ⁓ but something that we haven't talked a lot about is sleep. Right. Right? Right. No, and it's actually, it was a really big deal for us.
and when our kids were little. ⁓ So yeah, this was a really big topic for us and it's not something we've really ⁓ come back and talk about. Well, Aina caused a lot of conflict between us, a lot of arguments about sleep and how little we were getting and what needs to be done to those kids to make them sleep, right? So without further ado, I want to welcome Tracy from Raised Good. And if you've never heard about her, you got to go on Instagram and see the fantastic work she's doing. She's killing it there, helping parents be able to raise their kids.
in a way that's gonna make connected relationships with their kids for a lifetime. And that's something we're really passionate about, and Tracy is as well. So thank you for coming, Tracy.

Tracy (1:8.000)
thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:10.326)
And real quick, we want to clear something up. You've got an Australian accent, but you're actually in Canada. ⁓ Right?

Tracy (1:13.783)
Yes, yeah that's right. Yeah, Aussie accent, I'm married to a Kiwi ⁓ and yeah we live in Canada now on the west coast so yeah we love to travel.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:18.753)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:23.006)
Yes ⁓ Well, well it's something interesting about you is when we were talking before the show you told us you used to be a veterinarian So how did you go from being a veterinarian? ⁓ Into being this Instagram influencer and how did that impact the way in which you raised your kids?

Tracy (1:32.305)
Yes.

Tracy (1:41.022)
Yeah sure, so I was a veterinarian for many many years and when my son was born I remember just being
Well, we were actually trying to get pregnant for about three years. ⁓ And so we were on a fertility journey. And for anyone who's been on that, ⁓ they'll know that it's just this roller coaster of like, you live your life in two week increments, you know, wondering, you going to get pregnant? Are you pregnant? ⁓ And we went through so much on that journey. And I always thought that I would actually start a blog related to fertility. was like, I got to share all this, what I'm learning about natural fertility and ⁓ all that stuff. But then when I became pregnant, my ⁓ lens

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:55.980)
Mm, okay.
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:5.474)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:15.394)
Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (2:23.237)
kind of shifted ⁓ relatively quickly and it was actually on the topic of sleep that ⁓ the biggest shift initially happened and I was with my midwife I was about 30 weeks pregnant like massive belly ⁓ in there and I just got the crib I'd like researched the crib I think I'd actually ordered it from like New York or so was like this is so posh like here we go ⁓ and you know because you got to get the non-toxic mattress and organic sheets and ⁓ all the

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:32.599)
Mmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:51.234)
Yes, of course, of course, Tracy. Yes. ⁓

Tracy (2:53.147)
little things yeah you don't want toxic paints ⁓ and so he ordered this taking ages to come and I got it all set up ⁓ and then I was with my midwife and and she said no no ⁓ he's gonna sleep with you and I said what do you mean I've got this like the guy came around he set it up like we've got it ready to go you want to feel prepared as a new mother right? ⁓ All that nesting that goes on and ⁓ so I had this ready to go and she was like no no he's gonna sleep with you and I said what do you mean?

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:7.150)
Mmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:15.729)
yeah.

Tracy (3:23.127)
we've got the crib ready and she said no no I can tell he's gonna be in your bed for sure ⁓ and so I remember leaving that appointment and just thinking that she was a bit odd you know not sure what she was talking about ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:27.320)
Wow.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:35.190)
Yes, yes.

Tracy (3:36.349)
But then I started reading and I'd already kind of I'd had so many things that had shifted for me over the previous few years on fertility what we'd been told by doctors you know we'd been told we had a 2 % chance of ever falling pregnant and things like this and so I was used to kind of trying to bust those myths or really dig deeper and find what was true for myself not just trust professionals and yeah so I started looking into this and reading and I was finding the
of Dr. James McKenna and Professor Helen Ball and these ⁓ amazing people who dedicate their lives to researching sleep and mothers. ⁓
So ⁓ when our son was born he ⁓ we put him in ⁓ the little like that clear plastic container bassinet that they have at the hospital ⁓ I put him in there because there was a big sign on the wall that was like this is the safest place do not bring them into the bed ⁓ and Granted the hospital bed was not a safe, you know co-sleeping ⁓ surface looking back now ⁓ But I put him in there and he went to sleep, but I couldn't sleep I was like I'd waited three years of fertility during

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:24.418)
Yes. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:36.696)
Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:42.830)
Mm.

Tracy (4:45.023)
⁓ I had 42 weeks of pregnancy. It was this anti climax of this baby now separated from me and I just couldn't stand it and I picked him up and brought him into bed and then that's where he stayed ⁓ and ⁓ so I found that I was I'm not like a naturally like

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:45.634)
Yes.

Tracy (5:3.911)
crazy, know, positive ⁓ kind of happy-go-lucky person all the time, but I was so happy as a new mum and I had other mums saying to me, ⁓ what are you doing differently? Why are you so happy? How are you not so tired? ⁓ And I was still tired. There's no getting out of that. But ⁓ so I wanted to start writing about what I was experiencing. So I started writing about co-sleeping and breastfeeding and ⁓ different things like that. The blog started. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:6.466)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:15.512)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:24.723)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy (5:31.183)
I had a few viral posts ⁓ and it really took off and I discovered that I really enjoyed the creativity that came with that. I'd never paid much attention in English class at school because I just wanted to be a vet so I was just interested in chemistry and science and ⁓ all that stuff ⁓ and it was this creative outlet as a mother that I was like wow I really love this and I'm quite good at it and a few people are reading it and it really took off from there so ⁓ it's a passion project and yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:42.734)
Yeah
Nice! Yes! Wow! ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:56.878)
Yeah. ⁓
That is so cool to hear Tracy and I know like we were mentioning to you before we got on the podcast ⁓ It was such a point of contention for Sarah and I I really had this idea that Any kind of co-sleeping or even to be honest with even sleeping with a bassinette next to the bed was just not what we were gonna do ⁓
And unfortunately I was very headstrong and stubborn about that. And I think Sarah saw that I was not gonna change my mind on this. ⁓ And so unfortunately our oldest slept kind of like you're saying in the classic. We did do the room. got the, it took forever to paint that room with the non-lead paints or whatever, not lead, but non-toxic. Obviously non-lead's great, but like the non-toxic. But we were painting that room and she was in there. There were so many nights, Tracy, where Sarah or I were just laying on the floor.
⁓ Like turned into I spent most the night in her room. Yes, it was so crazy I saw her just like laying on the floor falling asleep on the ground trying to help a lot of growth between her. Yes, and also just yeah, yeah, that's a whole other story Yeah, but that journey but what I wanted to say is that really changed not only our marriage and our parenting But I think us as individuals me particularly because when our second came I was like Sarah listen
That was ridiculous. ⁓ What do you want to do? And going back to like your whole theme is I wanted what, what is, what are you instinctually feeling should be done here? And she was like, I want him in the bed with me. want, I want him to be close to me, you know? And so then I was like, you, you do you honey. ⁓ That's what you think is best. Let's go that direction. And that really ⁓ shifted to where instead of sleep being something we fought or we tried to make the kids do.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:43.662)
It was like we just started accepting how these kids are growing and changing and that was a big shift for us. So I want to, I want to kind of on that you, I want to hear with all the things you looked at and all the things, you know, I've, I've been on your page a million times and, and stuff, but I want you to share, what did you find out about sleeping and babies and parents? Yeah. And crying it out. All of that.

Tracy (7:49.765)
Yeah.

Tracy (8:8.258)
Yeah that's a huge huge question yeah yeah ⁓ yeah ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:8.992)
I mean, I know we could do a whole pod. ⁓ No, download everything, Tracy, right now. What are some key points, if you were to say, these are some really important things parents should know?

Tracy (8:21.392)
Well, I ⁓ think important things parents should know are...
⁓ I often try to come back to the idea and you touched on it there. What are we instinctually designed to do? ⁓ And we live our whole lives in culture ⁓ and we don't realize we're like the fish in the fishbowl that doesn't see the water. We ⁓ can't see the culture around us and whatever we're brought up with to believe is normal ⁓ or what is, we believe that what is common is what's normal. And so that's a big thing that I talk about. What is common doesn't necessarily mean biologically normal and what we're designed to do.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:31.362)
Yeah. Yep.

Tracy (8:56.158)
⁓ and ⁓ you know we grow up and we and we get grades at school and we get gold stars and we get external validation our whole lives and we become parents and same thing we want other people to say we're good mothers ⁓ and a good mother has got a good sleeper ⁓ and a good sleeper is one that is quiet through the night and doesn't wake the parents up. Sleeps in a separate crib is happy to go to sleep is happy to wake up seven to seven all these myths that we're told about what sleep should be ⁓ so what I

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:10.392)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:17.560)
Yes.

Tracy (9:26.078)
I try to do ⁓ in my parenting is just to strip it back to basics and say if I was dropped on a deserted island how would I parent? How would I parent through the night if nobody was watching, if there was no baby books, if there was no experts telling us what to do ⁓ and the last thing that we would do is go and try to find another little cave on the other side of the island to put our baby in. We'd be holding it close because there could be danger right ⁓ and so although we know that our houses are

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:34.401)
Mmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:47.278)
⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (9:55.961)
safe that the windows can close and the doors can lock. ⁓ Our babies don't.
understand that idea of safety, ⁓ the only way that they feel safe is to be in physical proximity to their parents, ⁓ to their caregivers ⁓ and Gordon Neufeld talks about this when he talks about how the six stages of attachment unfold ⁓ in that first six years of life and in that first year it's through the senses, it's through ⁓ and typically if it's a breastfeeding mother it's through smelling mum, touching mum, seeing mum, hearing mum and that can also be really hard in a marriage I think that first

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:3.982)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:9.358)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:20.462)
Mm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:25.666)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy (10:31.486)
couple of years of life when the baby and the little toddler is just obsessed with mum, ⁓ then it's like dad can feel like, hey, like what's going on here? But as you guys well know, like I remember when my son turned three, I think it was around three, suddenly dad was like centre stage, like ⁓ all play fun. And now he's 12. He's like, you know, dad stays up late watching movies with him. Like mum's like more of the kind of handbrake sometimes. Like ⁓ it's not always even every day.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:32.960)
Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:46.776)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:58.006)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Tracy (11:1.416)
right? ⁓ And ⁓ so I think that's important to acknowledge. ⁓ So ⁓ with sleep, ⁓ our babies are born believing that they're going to be sleeping next to us. ⁓ And then we put them into a separate room. ⁓ And now we've got a problem because now the baby doesn't want to be there and the baby's going to cry to bring the mother close or to bring the father close. That's the only way that they can communicate. ⁓ And then we're told to just ⁓ ignore those cries ⁓ as long as they're safe, as long as they're
warm and dry and fed then they should be okay. ⁓ But there is so much suffering in that resistance of what that communication is trying to tell us both for the mum. ⁓ mean people go to the extent of hiring sleep trainers to come into their house to physically stop the mother from going into that room that should tell us something. ⁓ So when we stop fighting ⁓ we've got to choose our fight right and it doesn't have to be a fight but we've got to choose who we're going to go with we either go with our baby and

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:48.800)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (12:1.318)
them what they need and what they're telling us ⁓ or we go with society and get told that we're a good girl and a good mum ⁓ and ⁓ get the gold star. ⁓ When we go with our baby and bring our baby into bed we sleep more, ⁓ breastfeeding so much easier, James McKenna calls it breast sleeping for good reason because breastfeeding and sleep go hand in hand. ⁓ We do get more sleep, ⁓ sleep will be more broken ⁓ but mothers and babies synchronize

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:7.480)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:15.726)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm. ⁓

Tracy (12:31.181)
their sleep so they come out of a light stage of sleep and then they're more able to easily fall back into sleep ⁓ so you're not ⁓ having those periods of long wakefulness during the night. ⁓ There's so much connection in that you would know with bringing your babies into it waking up and seeing their smiling faces like just playing games ⁓ under the covers like just there ⁓ if I think about those moments that would have been robbed from me if I had have gone in the other direction ⁓ that makes me feel so

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:32.399)
wow. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:44.694)
Yes, yep, yep.

Tracy (13:1.021)
sad. ⁓ And so just being able to be that person for our babies night and day. Parenting shouldn't change between ⁓ daytime and nighttime. ⁓ And ⁓ we were talking before we started recording one of the reasons why I keep talking about this even though my son's now 12. ⁓ I do really feel that it's activism, that it's a human rights issue, that it's ⁓ we got off track a couple of hundred years ago with ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:11.917)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:25.326)
Hmm.

Tracy (13:30.941)
⁓ when sleep training started to come about ⁓ with people who ⁓ were probably trying their best but didn't really understand what babies needed ⁓ and it's time to get back on track ⁓ and if we can be with our babies and connect with our babies and see what they need and have realistic expectations of what they can actually do ⁓ then they become toddlers. ⁓
who want to say no ⁓ and want to individuate and want to do their own thing and that could be really triggering to us as parents and then we want to start with timeouts and punishments and they should learn manners and all this stuff that is or they should share well they're not going to share when they're three or four ⁓ we can start to have realistic expectations and so if we start out that way it's so much easier to continue that way and we don't think about putting them in timeouts or punishing them or threatening them ⁓ so yeah

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:2.243)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:14.414)
⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:22.700)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ well, and I think going with that, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how ⁓ I grew through our, all three of our kids. The first one was like, I need to teach you how to sleep. You know, I need to make you sleep. And then by the second, it was like, I was more curious as to like, ⁓ how does he sleep? How do we help him sleep? And then by the third, I felt Tracy, the power of our third kid. I remember ⁓

Tracy (14:24.093)
⁓ There's some of the things I'd want parents to know. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:50.926)
being on a rocking chair and kind of like rocking her as she was trying to fall back to sleep. And I remember it had been a frustrating night. It had taken quite some time to help her go back to sleep. And when Abby did that when she was young, I'd be like, go, I'd be like thinking, go to sleep. Why are you awake? I've got things to do tomorrow. But with Ellie, my youngest, I'm holding it and I'm looking at her face and the thought hit me. How would I know I really love you unless we went through this together?
How would you know I really love you unless we did these kind of nights together? And then that led into what you were saying as they grew up having that mentality that these moments together, these things that are kind of conflictual, right? These are conflicts that they're actually moments for us to grow closer. Not for me to control you or for you to control me, but it's about us getting to know one another and understand each other.

Tracy (15:35.300)
Yeah.

Tracy (15:41.604)
Yeah I think that's one of the biggest pieces of parenting isn't it ⁓ is we go into this thinking that we're just ⁓ we can control these little humans and we can't ⁓ and when you surrender to that ⁓ and you start to think ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:51.042)
Yeah, yep. ⁓

Tracy (15:57.928)
should I even? That's an ethical moral question. Like we don't have the right to control another person. ⁓ We're here to ⁓ inspire them to follow us. ⁓ And if we're going to inspire them to follow us, we need to be good leaders and we need to focus on ourselves. And I know that's what so much of your work is about. Like parenting is all about us. It's not about them. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, so and our our kids don't ⁓ internalize our intentions like, well, they've read a sleep book that says that I

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:4.014)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:7.799)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:14.222)
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Tracy (16:27.821)
be doing this and so they're just following that. ⁓ They experience and internalize our actions ⁓ and from a very young age you know ⁓ you've spoken with Dan Siegel he talks a lot about implicit memory. ⁓ They're not going to miss and this is what a lot of sleep training talks about well they're not going to remember. I'm like well hang on that's a red flag to start with if you're doing something to your kid that you don't want them to remember like pause but their bodies do remember there's so many books written about this isn't there? Gabor Mate talks about it.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:28.910)
That's right. Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:38.990)
⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:50.680)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy (16:57.861)
Vandicoq the body keeps the score like ⁓ we do internalize that and then years down the track I mean why do we have so many people with insomnia why is there so many sleep problems with adults ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:7.224)
Yeah, I know. ⁓ know. Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (17:9.807)
We want them to believe that nighttime ⁓ sleep is a safe state and it's not something we can teach ⁓ just like we can't teach our kids to walk. We can't make them walk faster than what they're designed to do. We can't make them grow taller than what they're designed to do. Sleep is a developmental milestone that they get to it when their brain development is caught up ⁓ and we can't rush it. ⁓ And the more that we try to, ⁓ the more ⁓ suffering we create for ourselves and for our kids. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:20.174)
Yeah, I know. Yep. Yep.
Yep. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:37.514)
Yes, that's what I yeah.

Tracy (17:39.693)
that surrender, you know we can often think of surrender as like giving up like a white flag but surrender I think is one of the most active and courageous processes to be like I'm going to surrender to the as is of what it is now and I know that I'm strong enough to be able to carry that and I believe in myself and I don't know exactly what comes next but I know I'm figure it out and that's what I've carried so much in my parenting you know as my kid grows up like you would know better than any as my kid goes into
teenage kid I'm like I don't exactly know how to parent a 14 year old but I know I'll figure it out. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:10.594)
Yep. Yep. ⁓ Yes. There's so much what I love about what you're saying. I remember feeling that when, as a parent, when you move into that space, there's so much peace in that space. When you're leaning into.
you and your what's going on inside of you and you're listening to that and you're and you're listening to your child, your baby, your two year old, your six year old, whatever that age is. ⁓ And you know, that connection that attunement that's there, there's so much peace in that, when we can kind of trust it, and not trusting that everything's all figured out and everything's all perfect and easy, but trusting the moment that you're in that acceptance that you're talking about. I want to hear ⁓ you talk a little bit about

Tracy (18:52.484)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:55.224)
connection ⁓ and ⁓ what that is between a child and a parent and what disrupts it, ⁓ how you build it, because I've seen you kind of share some stuff about that and I love your voice ⁓ on that connection and I think it's something that...
What we're talking about with sleep. It's so you start day one. I mean you start when you're pregnant, course, know It's something that carries on and it keeps giving back to you as a parent that thing there worry We invest in the connection and that attunement with our child That's something that carries you through all the unknowns But I would love to just hear you share a little bit about that

Tracy (19:35.768)
Yeah, for sure. Connection ⁓ is one of my favorite topics to talk about in parenting because ⁓ it's parenting, right? ⁓ We're either working with or against connection. Our babies, ⁓ like it's an irreducible need ⁓ of children is to feel connected to their parents like ⁓ attachment. We can talk about words like secure attachment that get thrown around. ⁓ That is a child's number one need ⁓ is to feel attached to their parents.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:43.245)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:59.918)
⁓ Yeah

Tracy (20:5.645)
⁓ and ⁓ children will choose ⁓ attachment over anything else so if we're ⁓ threatening them threatening their connection or threatening their attachment by like ⁓ you're at the playground and we're like we need to go ⁓ and he's still going down the slide and I've got to go I've got an appointment to get to like how am gonna get there okay

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:24.546)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Tracy (20:29.210)
I'm going to count to three ⁓ and then I'm leaving. so immediately we're threatening connection. We're threatening the connection to that child and a young child will do anything to maintain that connection. So of course they're going to come. Okay, yeah, let's go. And you see the other parent, the playground doing it and gosh, it works fast. Like just do that. Just threaten it with one, two, three, they're going to come. ⁓ But what you've done is you've threatened connection, you've threatened attachment. ⁓ And ⁓ the other need that our child has is authenticity is to be the

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:35.276)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:43.233)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:46.872)
Yeah, yep, uh-huh, yep. ⁓

Tracy (20:59.164)
themselves, like to be who they are and that's what we ⁓ talk about is that we want our kids to be who they are ⁓ but if they've got to choose between who they are ⁓ and ⁓ connection ⁓ then they're going to choose connection every time and they're going to bury who they are. I'm just going to please mum, I'm just going to look after mum, ⁓ just going look after her needs. ⁓ If I'm too much to handle, I hit my brother, ⁓ if I did the wrong thing ⁓ and then we start raising people pleases and all those kinds of things and they bury their needs.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:59.219)
Mmm, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:17.474)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy (21:29.244)
and are always choosing attachment, ⁓ we want to make it so that our kids know that they just take attachment connection for granted ⁓ and ⁓ so we want to work with connection with our kids ⁓ rather than against it so in those kind of moments it's like ⁓
getting on the slide with your kid, going down, enjoying it with them, ⁓ looking them straight in the eyes and like, bud, I know you're having so much fun and it's time to go. We've got to rock and roll, but let's skip and sing to the car because what they're trying to keep going is the fun and the play ⁓ and the connection and whatever they're feeling in that moment. So it's like, let's keep that going. ⁓ And so, and they still might be like, I'm still not going. And then you're to hold a boundary. ⁓ It's not about like not having boundaries. It's still time.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:50.828)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:59.075)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yes. Yes. Yes. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:10.350)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:13.964)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yes, yep, yeah. ⁓

Tracy (22:18.428)
I'm gonna hold the space for those feelings and all that stuff, but we're still rocking and rolling. ⁓ it's connection I feel like it's like this invisible string between ⁓ Parents and children and when you feel it ⁓ when you're connected with your kid ⁓ They are inspired to want to follow you because you're leading ⁓ like ⁓ we have a lot of Canada geese on on the island ⁓ and when the little goslings are around like They're following that mother

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:42.986)
cool. ⁓
Yes. Yes. Yes. ⁓

Tracy (22:48.418)
around like ⁓ they're not in the lead like one of the little goslings isn't in the lead in the mother following that's like permissive parenting that's not what we're after like ⁓ but she's inspiring them to follow ⁓ and ⁓ we we are here to inspire our kids to follow and we do that with connection with not threatening it things that threaten it like traditional discipline ⁓ timeout is saying ⁓ I know how important connection is to you and when you do something that doesn't please me I'm gonna take

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:56.428)
Yeah, yep, yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:11.052)
Yeah, yep, yep.

Tracy (23:18.318)
it away from you and you're not welcome in my presence now. Until you behave how I want you to ⁓ then you'll get it back. ⁓ Connection is like air to a child, like they need it to breathe. ⁓ They know that their survival depends on being connected to us right? ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:28.982)
Yes. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:35.599)
I love everything you're saying and we totally, once we bought into that idea that our kids want that, they want us to be that inspirational leader. They want us, where are we going? Head that way, right? I think what do you do when you're talking to parents who just doubt that? They don't believe their kids are going to that. I I'll have parents I'm coaching who they think my kids would actually rather go hang out with their friends than hang out with me. They don't really want to.
Somehow they ⁓ even buy into some of the culture stuff of kids by the time they're teenagers that that's just something you gotta expect. Teenagers actually don't like spending time with kids. They don't want to be with you. ⁓ how do you take in that same kind of thinking that we totally believe too, how do you deal with that when a parent is saying, you kind of get feel if there's fear, I don't think they will want

Tracy (24:29.747)
Yeah. And I think that's ⁓ that's a great question. ⁓ And ⁓
And I think what it comes down to is that we are creatures of attachment and of connection. ⁓ Humans are always wanting to be connected to other humans. ⁓ And ⁓ when our kids come into our lives, they're looking to us for that connection. ⁓ If they don't get it, then they're going to look somewhere else for it and they go to their peers. ⁓ You know, if they're if they're spending ⁓ a lot of time with their peers, then they're going to be oriented in that direction. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:55.224)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy (25:5.423)
And that's when kids can get really hard to lead ⁓ if they're like, but I'm connected to my friend over here and my friend's doing that thing. ⁓ So I'm going to, I'm going to behave that way and I'm going to do that. ⁓ They're more concerned if, if, if their friends have become their primary points of connection, ⁓ then it's going really hard to parent those kids ⁓ and really hard to lead them. ⁓ But given a choice, ⁓ the child will always want to be connected to the parent. ⁓ And so I think if kids have,

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:12.108)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:34.008)
Yep.

Tracy (25:35.353)
gone in that direction, ⁓ then it's going to be a bit of a course correct for a while and you're not going to just get them back straight away. ⁓ Particularly if you have been using traditional discipline techniques and stuff, the kids got to start to learn to trust like, huh, they're not going to threaten me right now. Well, they're not going to do that thing. I mean, I get this with my son. Like all of us do it. I'm sure you guys do it too, because it's like ⁓ these tapes are in our heads. Like it's what we grew up with. ⁓ But I've I've raised my son in a way that he knows how to expect.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:42.124)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:50.380)
Yes, yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:55.618)
Yeah, of course, of course, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:0.931)
Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (26:5.196)
to treated in relationship. And I think that's one of the most important things we can do as parents is to give them that blueprint for like, you deserve to be treated with respect. You don't deserve to be yelled at. You deserve to have your boundaries respected, ⁓ all those sorts of things. So then when they come into relationships with other people ⁓ and someone's not treating them well, then they're like, hang on, ⁓ I don't deserve to be treated like that. ⁓ But in my relationship with my son, if I am like having a bad day and I like pull out a, well,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:14.156)
Yeah. Yep.

Tracy (26:35.129)
If you don't do such and such then ⁓ whatever whenever there's an if and a then there's a threat coming and he'll say to me mom that sounds like a threat we don't do threats in our family and like ⁓ darn like ⁓ like but I need you to just get ready for school like this is not the day I'm having a rough time so like we all fall into those things this is not about being on some pedestal being some perfect parent ⁓ and ⁓ one of the ⁓ one of my favorite things

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:38.220)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:45.836)
Yeah, yeah, That's right. Yes. ⁓
Yeah, yeah. Yep. ⁓ No way.

Tracy (27:5.059)
about parenting through connection is rupture and repair. ⁓ We get to repair in relationship. We get to learn to apologize. That's one of the biggest things that you should get really good at as a parent because we're going to mess it up every single day because we're human ⁓ and ⁓ so much ⁓ connection ⁓ is strengthened when we repair with our kids when we can show up and truly apologize like, ⁓ but I am so sorry that I yelled like that. I'm working on it. You didn't deserve to be treated like that. ⁓ That's on my show.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:8.685)
Yeah, yeah.

Tracy (27:34.939)
⁓ and I really apologize and that can be really hard for a lot of us to do because we weren't raised to believe that ⁓ owning a problem or owning a mistake was safe and so we'll try to avoid it we'll go into a shame spiral ⁓ we can't can't apologize we can't show we were wrong so we might say something like ⁓ hey I'm really sorry I yelled but it's just because you didn't clean up your toys like that's not an apology that's like that's just like reverting the blame so ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:35.886)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:48.236)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Tracy (28:2.808)
there is ⁓ so much ⁓ when we mess up with our kids and when we repair what our kids also get to learn is that relationships can hold mistakes. ⁓ I'm safe to make mistakes. I'm safe to be imperfect. I'm safe to like problem solve and figure things out ⁓ and when I see my parents fighting or when ⁓ I'm safe to disagree with my mom because we can come back and repair. ⁓ I think coming back to your original question of like ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:12.184)
Yeah.

Tracy (28:30.935)
teenagers will ⁓ clearly you know ⁓ that peers do become a lot more important to them ⁓ and and that's the way it's gonna go and and sometimes I'm sure you guys look back to him like ⁓ my four-year-old he just thought that I was everything like ⁓ he just thought I was the best and would just follow me around and like ⁓ I could do no wrong ⁓ and now he's 12 ⁓ and going into and he's like ⁓ five foot eight and

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:36.910)
Sure. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:45.206)
Yes, yes, yes, ⁓ yes, ⁓ yes, ⁓ yes, yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (29:0.859)
and a size 11 men's shoes. And I'm like, oh my God, he's a giant. they are, know, peers are important to them.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:1.164)
my gosh, ⁓ wow, yes, wow. Yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:12.386)
Yeah. ⁓

Tracy (29:12.689)
they're going to continue to be and that's part of growing up. Part of the of attachment is independence and separation ⁓ that they will separate from us. We are trying to raise them into humans that will be able to be ⁓ confident and independent and go and do life on their own ⁓ but if we create that foundation of attachment and

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:15.468)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:20.108)
Yep. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:29.602)
Yep. Yes. Yeah.

Tracy (29:36.921)
⁓ connection they will know that it's always safe to come back to us and so we have to build that in children ⁓ so that they're safe to like break something or ⁓ or have a meltdown over something so tiny ⁓ so that like you would know when something big happens when a girl breaks their heart or when ⁓ they messed up or when they took the car or whatever happened that they're still going to come to us right ⁓ that it was safe to do that ⁓ so I think the more that we can turn into

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:40.910)
That's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:2.102)
Yes. ⁓ Yeah.

Tracy (30:6.867)
connection the more we're making it our relationship of safe harbour, ⁓ particularly in this world of like ⁓ growing up with phones and social media and all the craziness that we didn't need to grow up with, ⁓ we need to be that safe harbour that they come back to and so if parents haven't been ⁓ parenting in that way it's gonna take some time, it's gonna take some time for the kid to go hang on are you trustworthy what's going on here is this how we're doing it now like this is new ⁓ but stick with it they'll come back.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:27.276)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:33.516)
Yeah. Well, and ⁓ almost to harken back to what you said too, is if they've been using those traditional means of discipline, like timeouts, like spanking, you ⁓ know, threatening those kinds of things, ⁓ you have them for quite some time been using the attachment as a leverage tool to get them to do stuff, right? And you got to realize that's broken some trust, you know? And then what you see is teenagers then who just won't tell you what they care about.

Tracy (30:36.740)
you

Tracy (30:50.935)
Yeah.

Tracy (30:55.586)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:59.490)
They just won't tell you what, because they're afraid you'll use it against them. ⁓ Well, and then, and then, yeah, I think when they're little, you can get this false sense of control and that you can manipulate the attack, the relationship to get them to cooperate or get, ⁓ but when they're teenagers, that all shifts and you don't have that leverage or control you thought you had. ⁓ I think what you're saying is so valuable where

Tracy (30:59.682)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:25.790)
It's hard sometimes to just look in the mirror and go, okay, I did some things now ⁓ that I want to change. I need to shift this, but to feel empowered that you can shift it. You can shift back and always be focused on that connection. just go, you know, you hear it and yet we need to hear it over and over and over. We've got to prioritize the connection. And that isn't like you said, throwing out any boundaries. ⁓
but we too often will, ⁓ the connection will suffer between a parent and child. ⁓ And ⁓ we've got to just keep orient, go back to that, go back to that ⁓ and I love that. and I think, Tracy, we saw one time on a Ted talk too, where they were talking about if your parents wrote you a letter today and they did some of the stuff you just said.
and they talked about, made these mistakes, I wanna do a different, any of us now, even as adults, we would be moved by that letter, right? So it was ⁓ just a whole comment about how it's never too late. ⁓ So even now, ⁓ if you've used the attachment and the connection from the time they were little to now as a tool to get them to do what you want, you can change that now. And it doesn't need, you don't need to feel like it's damage is way too beyond repair. It can be repaired. It will be hard. ⁓ So Tracy, ⁓ I wanna end with this overall just kind of,

Tracy (32:23.927)
Big time.

Tracy (32:28.109)
Yeah.

Tracy (32:41.430)
Yeah, ⁓ absolutely.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:46.388)
I want to hear where they can find more out about you, but just kind of summarize what you've been saying. A lot of what you've been telling our audience is to kind of trust their instincts, to yes, listen, we want to be educated. We want to read the books, but there is something about trusting that you are enough, that you are the parent your kid needs and that your kid wants and that your kid wants to be inspired by you. They want to follow you. And I think that kind of sums up your message of raised good.

Tracy (33:11.734)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I love that summary. it's, ⁓ and there's so much healing in that, right? I don't think anyone listening can kind of hear those words like you're enough. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:18.967)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:23.139)
Yeah.

Tracy (33:23.616)
and not feel it like, ⁓ am I enough? ⁓ Am I enough? Do I need to know, ⁓ farm out my choices? ⁓ Yeah, and no parent ever goes into a situation and thinks, I'm gonna use ⁓ my ⁓ connection against, this is all unconscious, this is what we're told to do. ⁓ So feel no shame over it ⁓ and just ⁓ move forward from this point and just say I'm making different choices. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:26.966)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:42.292)
I know. Yeah. ⁓ Yes. ⁓ Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:50.307)
Well, and I think it's humbling, even as you say, feel humbled to say I'm enough. It almost sounds like you're being arrogant. No, you're not. It's humbling that my kids think.

Tracy (33:55.212)
Yeah. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:1.013)
I am enough. know, and we get the luxury of we've helped kids for a long time and how many of them so desperately just wanted their parents to go back to that connection, to go back to trusting them, ⁓ to being with them, you know, and even them trusting themselves. It's sad for them to watch their parents constantly doubt themselves or beat themselves up, you know? And it's like they want their parents to know they love them and that they think they're great, you know? And then they start to get like, what have I done to cause my parents to feel that way about themselves? It's kind of...

Tracy (34:1.228)
Yeah! ⁓ Yeah!

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:30.262)
It's kind of a sad cycle that starts to happen. So hey, for our audience that wants to know more about your work, Tracy, how can they find you? ⁓ Where would you point them towards?

Tracy (34:39.064)
⁓ Best place to go is my website which is raisedgood.com. I started this journey by blogging and I was blogging every week for many years. So there are a ⁓ ton of articles on there on all of the topics that we've been talking about. ⁓ So that would be a great place to go. Instagram is the other place where I turn up most on social media at raisedgood. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, everything is raisedgood.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:1.420)
Yeah. ⁓ Is there an upcoming summit you have going on?

Tracy (35:6.658)
There we've just we just did one in we I hosted every September. So it was it was just this September. And yeah, so that was number six. ⁓ So yeah, so we'll see for next year. And ⁓ yeah, the other exciting thing, this is why we were meant to record last week. And I was like, I'm writing a book at the moment. So I went away last week. I was writing a book. I was like, had some time out to just get some some words down. So, yeah, one day. ⁓ Well, next year, the plan would be

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:11.680)
Okay, okay. Great.
Okay, okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:27.355)
⁓ cool, yes, nice, ⁓ yes.

Tracy (35:36.823)
that the book will launch sort of late summer, 2026. yeah. Yeah, yeah, that'd be awesome. ⁓

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:38.274)
Fantastic. ⁓ Well, maybe we'll have, we'd love to have you on again at that time to talk about the book. So that'd be great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and really appreciate you advocating for those little babies ⁓ more and more. And that way then it changes the whole relationship into adulthood. Thank you for doing that. Thank you.

Tracy (35:48.450)
Pleasure.

Tracy (35:57.452)
Thanks so much for having me. ⁓