Episode 199

I think all of us as parents worry about raising kids that ⁓ quit too easily. And every time something is difficult, everything, something's hard. And every time something ⁓ uncomfortable, ⁓ should we just push them? Should we quote unquote make them do it? Or do we just like back off and just say, well, whatever you want. And ⁓ I think there's gotta be a middle ground, right? And I think Sarah and I have stumbled upon what that middle ground looks like and how it feels, even though we're still working out the kinks ourselves with our own kids.
And so in today's episode, we're gonna talk about how you can know if you need to back off or maybe you need to push a little harder, right? And also how this kind of conflict can actually produce so much more intimacy and connection and just like ⁓ help you and your kid better understand who they are and what kind of relationship you wanna have with any kind of topic that comes up. So we're gonna give you clear specific steps on how to better understand that and do this differently, especially as all of these activities you know that are popping up.
coming up with summer and all that kind of stuff, we wanna make sure you're equipped and confident on knowing how to handle that better. ⁓ if you haven't done already, take a moment to definitely review and comment. We love those five star reviews. Would love to hear how this one, actually this podcast in particular helps you. ⁓ And maybe if you have some thoughts about how you do this, we'd love you to share those as well. If you need some help and you're saying, man, I just need some extra support. I'd love some coaching ⁓ from Kyle. Reach out to me at kyle at art of raising humans.com. ⁓
and I'd love to connect with you over Zoom call to see if we're a good fit. without further ado, take a moment to sit back and get ready to listen on what we should do. Should we push our kids or do we need to back off?
Kyle Wester (0:0.974)
Hello, and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And Sarah, know, something that I've been hearing a lot from parents that I'm coaching, you know, ⁓ is there is this constant kind of tension, this kind of push and pull when it comes to raising kids about when do we give our kids a little push and when do we back off, you know? I mean, all too often, I know for us, this came about because I would have this idea of like,
the kids need to learn how to persevere. They need to learn how to like overcome these fears and you know, not everything in life is gonna be easy and even though you don't like it, do it anyway. But then you would come in with a different ⁓ perspective, which was like, yeah, but they need to also listen to themselves and know themselves and maybe they don't wanna do that or don't like doing it. And they need to be able to say no and have the freedom to do that, you know? But I think that causes not only tension within the individual, you know, like I've...
my perspective was kind of just one way, but then it can also cause a lot of problems in a marriage too, because we both feel kind of, we can get kind of entrenched in each other's perspective. I feel like you have to balance the other person. like the other one's being way too pushy. I need to totally back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the main fear is we're gonna raise kids who are constantly just saying no to everything.
this is my mind, and no to everything that's hard. And if anything's not fun, they're just gonna say no to it. And that's the fear I have. ⁓ And it's this fear that goes into the future. What kind of human am I raising in this world? And you can see how it spirals. Yeah, I think ⁓ if I were to summarize it, I'd say, I think all of us, no matter what side you find yourself on, ⁓ our big fear, what we're looking to is the future, right? I wanna raise a child who can stick with things, even when it's hard. ⁓
But then how do ⁓ I do that? How do I also raise a child who knows when to quit? Because you see people who just persevere and they should have jumped ship three years ago. They stayed in that job too long. They stayed in that relationship too long. ⁓ Because they felt like they had to just stay in there and be committed. it's this, man, I value both sides. How do I raise this kid who can navigate this?

Kyle Wester (2:19.118)
⁓ And then we feel all this pressure to perfect it with our four-year-old. Yeah, well, and that's where words to me that pop up as you're saying that is, how am I helping them have grit? How am I helping them have confidence and courage, right? ⁓ But then also I'm asking myself, am I pushing them so hard that they're not gonna listen to who they are and they're just gonna become a little version of me?
Is that what I want? I don't want that either. We're just doing things that other people have crafted for them and they don't get to live their life. We want them to live their life. And this can get pretty heated amongst a couple as they're talking about, especially when it comes to activities like sports and music and academics and even clubs that they're ⁓ kind of interested in. We want them to be a part of it. could be like Scouts or other things like that. I see so many parents who...
that the other kid is wanting to quit scouts and like, you're so close to Eagle, go get it. You know, and there's a lot of pushing there. And so all these things are loaded with money and time and identity and comparing yourself to other families. And so, you know, we're really big on not just viewing this podcast, Sarah, to like give parents advice on raising kids, but really this is about us reflecting on ourselves as parents and what's going on in us through this. And I think this topic very much reveals.
something very different about each of us ⁓ and kind of also reveals to us what we think about these topics of perseverance and grit and confidence and how they're developed. Right, right. Yeah, it's one that's very, very ⁓ true for us. ⁓ You know, it's something that's come up a lot in our parenting is something I feel like we're figuring out, you know, it's a day to day kind of thing. And this is a big picture way that helps.
guide you as you're figuring out is this a back off moment or a push moment? Yeah, so before we continue in the podcast, take a moment and kind of see where do you tend to land if you're listening? Are you more do you tend to push or do you tend to back off? Today, we want to find a middle ground where it's not about pressure, but it's also not about permissiveness either. Yeah, but we want it to be about intentional support that's going to build resilience ⁓ without breaking trust.

Kyle Wester (4:26.798)
So like you're wanting to build a resilient kid that you still have a trusting relationship with, okay? So first of all, this is super normal. This happens in a lot of families. mean, pretty much every family that I've helped throughout the years, there's been some element of this. But in particular, this has come to light more and more, especially it's very difficult in divorce situations or where a couple has, one feels like that's their job is to be the pushy one. And the other parent, like you said, feels like they've got to.
back off, but then they feel like there'll be judgment about that. So really finding that middle ground is really important. How do we help develop this in ourselves and in our kids, right? So parents aren't usually afraid of quitting in general. What they're afraid of is raising adults who quit when things get uncomfortable.
Yes. Yes. I'm, I do know when I raise kids who quit when it gets uncomfortable. You go to that worst case scenario. You're dealing with an eight year old, but in your head you're thinking you're 32. can't. said eight year old, I'm doing four year olds. If you're already quitting at four, you're going to, Oh my God, when things get hard at 16, you're going to be quitting then too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no.
that actually I was gonna say 16 is my next age. We're also really terrified when we see this in a 16 year old, because we think they're already 32. And we need to realize that even at 16, we're still looking too far ahead. We need to be in this moment. Yeah. And we start saying things like, you need to finish what you start, right? Hard things build character. They do, they do. No pain, no gain. And there's truth in all that stuff.
There's truth in all that. But the problem comes when perseverance gets confused with endurance at all cost. And I gotta say, I do get that confused sometimes, because I definitely would be the person who would err on the side of enduring and not quitting, ⁓ even when it's probably a good idea just to quit and bail. ⁓ So here's an important, I love this reframe, Sarah, as we discuss this, this reframe that we want to hold on loosely throughout the episode.

Kyle Wester (6:35.822)
okay, throughout this discussion, ⁓ is perseverance is not about staying no matter what. know, like when it's, when we say it that way, it does go, yeah, that seems kind of dumb. Like there are, ⁓ there are situations you probably just need to quit that job or need to like, it's not going, I mean, there is, ⁓ there is something important about that that I can definitely value, you know? Cause I have quit jobs. I have quit jobs that were just not healthy or good to be at, that the culture was not good, you know? But perseverance is really,
And I want you to listen closely to this. Here's what perseverance, it's really about learning how to struggle without losing yourself. ⁓ Tell me more about that. What does that mean? Right. So you've got the whole just stick with it always ⁓ mentality. And I think ⁓ there's a lot of value there. I love the value of being able to stick through hard things, but a lot of times somewhere along the way, and it's usually this slow thing, you're losing yourself. You're not listening to
⁓ it's time to change direction, but you're so focused on hanging in there that you don't see those messages pop up. And that's actually, there's a whole lot of wisdom there to know ⁓ what what's going on for me here. And do I need to change course instead? just view it as a bailout instead of time to change course, because I listened ⁓ to the messages coming along the way.
You know, this may be something that none of our listeners would think of, but as you're talking about this, I'm thinking, I even had this mentality about food as a kid, you know, that you were kind of taught if it's on your plate, you're supposed to clean it, you know? And even if you're like, but I'm kind of full, it doesn't matter. Just you persevere ⁓ through that meal and you eat it, right? Whereas something as you've been, you know, pretty intentional about helping our kids listen to that inner voice inside, which I definitely think is important.
is sometimes our kids will be eating dessert even, and they'll be like, I'm done, I don't need more. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like you always persevere through desserts, I don't care. I don't care what you feel. Like that thought doesn't even cross my mind. If I'm eating dessert or eating, I might look at a plate and I'll be like, yeah, I'll just eat the rest. I feel really full, but who cares? ⁓ And it's like, that's a small example how even in my home, quitting was not seen as an option. Like you don't even quit what you're eating.

Kyle Wester (8:58.734)
You know, there was some judgment or criticism. It was almost like you don't value what you were given. You know, you're just throwing it away. Yeah, but I'm full. Yeah, but maybe you shouldn't have. You took that much. Now you need to eat it. You know? Right. Right. And you see it even in places of I'm tired. Yeah. But it's like, mean, you just keep going. keep taking some caffeine. You can get sleep later. Get more coffee. Get an energy drink. You're right. Throughout college, it was kind of like that. You don't listen to that. You don't take a nap. You Yeah. You just push through it. Yeah.
Yeah, so that's what's a plotted. It's the person who's taking the extra class and staying up and studying. That's what's a plotted. It's not the person who said, you know what? I realized that I needed to drop that class. I could sleep eight hours at night. No one's applying the person who chose to sleep eight hours a night. Yeah, yeah. No, I remember my senior year. did that, Sarah. I felt overwhelmed with some of responsibilities I had my senior year. So I did put off a foreign language class and I took that at a community college.
So I didn't technically graduate till another year after all my friends, but I was like, I can't handle this. I can't be taken this 15 and a half hour, 18 and half, whatever it was, and then successfully do the senior year. need to back off and it didn't hurt my life. Actually my work gave me a pay like I had graduated. So we wanna, basically, I want you understanding that kids don't grow resilience, or humans don't, by being overpowered.
or being intimidated or by being forced to do something. They grow resilience by being supported through the challenge. ⁓ That's an important distinction is this isn't an isolated thing that we want our kids doing. We want them doing it with us. ⁓ So let's talk about the brain science behind perseverance. So that's really what we want to instill in our kids is we want to raise resilient kids that know how to persevere. ⁓ A child's brain is still under construction.
You know, it's new, it's still being formed. And the part of the brain responsible for planning or long-term thinking, emotional regulation and persistence, which is the prefrontal cortex, doesn't fully mature until the mid-20s. So that's really important to keep in mind. And that means kids borrow regulation from us before they can actually do it on their own. So perseverance is not just a character trait, which is how I kind of always saw it as. It's a neurodevelopmental skill.

Kyle Wester (11:23.052)
which to me kind of changes something. ⁓ When you see it as a skill, you're like, that's something they develop over time, ⁓ rather than a character trait is like, if they don't have it, I'm failing my kid. I need to instill that in them. Yeah. And if you think ⁓ well into their college years, they're still working on this. Well into the early years of their career, they're still working on this. We really have to realize and put in there, OK, this is something that's building.
through time and we're just a part of that. We're adding in our blocks, we're trying to help them learn that balance of listening to myself and knowing I can stick through hard things too. That both are possible, it's not an either or. I remember even building it when we had kids. There was ways in which being woken up all the time by a crying baby. thought you weren't gonna make it. Yeah, and then you felt, oh, I can persevere through this. But it was what I think happens lots of times in that.
is the couple's doing it alone. Maybe ⁓ the mom is doing it by herself at night without the dad's support. And I think the more a couple can see this as an opportunity to build resilience in each other, you know it's meant to be done together. ⁓ And so ⁓ the key concept we want you to kinda see here, we hope we articulate, is that growth happens ⁓ in this optimal challenge zone, okay? And that's the place where something feels hard, ⁓ something is kinda frustrating.
or even uncomfortable, but it's still manageable with support. ⁓ When stress stays in that zone, the brain learns. The brain starts to grow and develop, but when stress becomes chronic or overwhelming, the brain will shift down into survival mode. And in the survival mode, kids don't build grit. They're not getting grit there. ⁓ They build, and I know a lot of parents I'm coaching, they've seen this, they build avoidance, ⁓ they build resentment.
And they start to shut down. Yeah. So it's a sweet spot of, okay, this is hard and we can kind of push, you know, our kids in this spot of it's hard. don't feel like going to practice tonight, but we can still go. ⁓ But, know, so we hang in there in those tough spots, but you've got to watch and we're not going to do it perfect, but you're watching for that tipping point ⁓ where all it is is now. I hate this. I resent this.

Kyle Wester (13:44.684)
this is too big, too hard. gotta keep in that it's challenging, but I still feel good. And I notice that I'm doing something hard. ⁓ And once we pass that point, then the brain is just trying to make it through. It's not learning the grit that we hope that they're learning. So we want to stay in that sweet spot and that can be hard to do. But just saying that in layman's terms, it's like, it's that point where if you run or exercise, you're running and exercising and feeling good about yourself, but you're not
insight that the next three days you have to recover because you work too hard. Yeah, then your brain is just like, just got to make it through versus the learning and the feeling good that comes with I conquered this manageable mountain. Yeah, I see way too many kids doing sports and they're just shut down. ⁓ Yeah, like and the parents are confused. know, like they seem successful. The kid is going.
The kid is no longer even doing well at it. And kid's no longer even complaining about doing it. But the kid just seems kind of shut down. They're just kind of going through the motions. And they'll tell me when I'm talking to them, they feel like they have no choice. ⁓ I just have to go. My parents are going be mad if I don't. ⁓ So the question, Sarah, like what I heard you say, the question isn't is this hard? The question is, is this hard in a way that still feels safe and supported to the kid? ⁓ And going back to even having kids, I think that was part, as we were parenting, when parenting is hard.
⁓ Do I feel is this the yes, this is hard But is it hard in a way that we still both as a couple feel safe and supported within it? I think we would all want that, you know And so let's remember that regulation comes before learning, you know that that kids aren't really learning or getting the skill when they're dysregulated and Connection always comes before growth. ⁓ So we want to make sure we're helping our kids have that connection So then really if we're wanting them to learn perseverance and grit, they're only gonna learn it in that
by being regulated and being connected. ⁓ So let's talk about when pushing is healthy because there are times kids are tentative and they just don't know how to move forward into something that is hard or is uncomfortable and we would never say ⁓ don't ever do that like there are and even I've had kids Sarah who tell me they need it's like this I need a little push. The push is where growth happens we know that for ourselves you know where you you put yourself out there. ⁓

Kyle Wester (15:59.118)
And then you get that joy, that success, that you mature, you grow, and ⁓ your talents or skills, whatever it is on the job, ⁓ where you've put yourself and you've pushed yourself, and not to that breaking point where it felt great. And we want that for our kids. We want them to know how to do that. ⁓ Well, and also what happens sometimes if we back off too early, you do rob your kids of a growth opportunity.
I would think that's where I kind of erred too much on that. I don't want to rob my kids of this opportunity, you know, just because they're saying they don't want to do it doesn't mean they actually don't want to do it. Yeah. Well, they can lose confidence because then it's like, the moment something's hard, I bail because I can't do anything hard. So it's that no, no, you're, you're very capable. I believe in you. So here, here's some signs to look for. Um, whenever you are kind of leaning in to give them a little push.
You want to be looking for these signs where it's still supportive and it's not harmful. ⁓ So one sign is your child is frustrated, but they're still engaged. ⁓ Number two is they might complain, but they show up, you know, meaning like show up, like they're, they're present. They're all there. They're interacting. Right. ⁓ number three, they recover emotionally after setbacks. So it's not like, I've had these kids who are playing sports and they're just getting super overwhelmed, super easily. they're
like freaking out on the, if anything goes bad, they're just, I mean, just completely a mess, right? So if they're able to bounce back, it's like, oh, okay, cool, this is good. So yeah, we don't want it to be too overwhelming to them. They feel proud after effort, even if the outcome isn't perfect. So mean, that's a really great sign. The does it. Yeah, really important. Yeah, they don't feel good about just when they win, but they can even lose and still feel good about it. They can articulate at least loosely why this matters to them. Like they can kind of like,
own it a little bit, right? And kind of say, is why I think doing this activity is important and what I'm getting out of it, right? Okay, now this is where a parent's role is incredibly important ⁓ because we don't want to become drill sergeants, right? That's not a good thing, okay? Because we're not running a military, I don't think, in our homes, okay? But you want to be a steady presence in their life. And so this is where messages like this matter, right? So some important messages that come across ⁓ is hard

Kyle Wester (18:14.094)
doesn't mean wrong, right? That's a good message. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great one because just because something hard, going back to what I saying is the moment, you know, kids, we can learn, oh, it's hard, stop, you know, but instead we want kids to go, oh, this is kind of hard. And there's something in you that can rise up that go, okay, I can do hard. Yeah. And that feels very rewarding. does. Right? So we want to that into our kids. want to have that language. We want to model that, but not...
too hard, you know, it's like I, it's a hard, can do. ⁓ love that. ⁓ you don't have to love every practice to grow here, you know? So like you can actually go to practice, not think it's the best thing in the world. ⁓ Like you can still get better and grow as a person. Yeah. Yeah. I love even sometimes when I'm doing some work around the house or working.
and maybe I don't feel like it that day. I might even voice that to my kids. I don't really feel like doing this today. I need to get it done. ⁓ look, I got it done. That feels good. You know, to kind of model the, yeah, sometimes I don't feel like getting out of bed to go mow the lawn, to do the dishes, but I did it and look, it's done. It looks great. I love that I did that. know? It's funny you brought up the lawn mowing. ⁓ like you- I don't actually mow I know, but you were actually always confused why.
And this is not to say this is something you need to do with your kids, but why I would pick like the hottest part of the day to mow the lawn. ⁓ Cause it was like, I was modeling to the kids. ⁓ It's hot. I'm actually, I'm not going to let the heat stop me. I'm going to go do it. ⁓ I know that's dumb. ⁓ I still like it though. like, I like that they see me do it, but I'm just trying to show, tell our audience, this is how ridiculous my thinking can be. I'm like, you'd be like, why don't you do it earlier in the day?
Well, because I want to do in the hottest part of day, because I want to let them know the heat doesn't control me. I'm going to go out there and do what's hot. ⁓ Yeah. And you'd be like, just do it in a cooler part of the day. ⁓ and then the last one is I believe you can do hard things ⁓ and I'm right here with you. Yeah. That always reminds me of that icicle thing. If you are that ice water, ⁓ you know, where if you, I don't know, we've mentioned it before, but I just really am fascinated by that where

Kyle Wester (20:27.082)
If one person sticks their feet in ice water by themselves, they can't stay as long as if someone's with them. Again, we just, think humans are built. We can do harder things longer, ⁓ have a better time if we're doing it with other can go through a lot. You know, what I hear about, even the kids I've talked to that were Eagle Scouts. I would talk about, man, those campouts though are hard when it's really cold and hot. And they would laugh and say, yeah, you know, every time I didn't want to go on those. But actually some of those ended up being the best because me and my friends just like,
this sucks, this is horrible. And they're like, I actually remember those, the fondest that we somehow suffered together through it. And I always thought that's something interesting there, right? None of them were like, yeah, it was great that I was completely alone and freezing. It was like, I had a friend with me. And many times when I hear kids say they don't wanna do something, it's almost 100 % of the time because they don't have a friend doing it with them. They're like, that thing seems kind of boring. Maybe it could be fun, but I don't think it's gonna be because my friend's on
Right. But as soon they find a friend's going, they're like, yeah, I want to do that. And I think that speaks to this. That's something in them ⁓ maybe unconsciously knows I'm going to get more out of this if I'm with a friend. and we can do that too. Like sometimes there's times, so you're bringing about the friend thing, but ⁓ I was just thinking there are times ⁓ our, daughter, but our other kids too have had, man, they really need to clean their room. It's kind of a wreck. had a really great time, but now they got to clean it up.
And even if we haven't gone in there to help, we've just been in the room with them while they did it. You know, so even something small like that, if your child's going through something hard, maybe they have a friend they can go through it with, maybe they can't, they just gotta do homework at night and there's no one to do it with them. But you can say, you know what, I'm gonna sit here and work on some stuff too. You know, so there's ways that you can be present with your child in their suffering. Well, so this kind of pushing that we're talking about, it communicates belief, it communicates confidence instead of pressure.
it sends the message to your kid, I trust your capacity. I trust your capabilities. I won't abandon you when it gets uncomfortable and I'm not forcing you to decide everything before you're ready. It is this kind of gradual, it takes some patience, it takes some time and it takes some trust that the kid will eventually get there. If I start to believe, oh, he just won't do it because it's hard, then you're gonna find yourself pushing way too much and that leads to the next kind of topic is when pushing becomes too much.

Kyle Wester (22:48.194)
You know, like when that starts to happen, we start to slip over to that. ⁓ How do you know when you're doing it? How do you know when you've gone ⁓ from being helpful and supportive to something that's kind of harmful, you know? And so here's a few signs that we kind of noted in just working with couples and parents. ⁓ Your child experiences, number one, your child experiences persistent dread or anxiety before participating in the activity.
Right. That moment where they hate every practice and every game. You've well crossed that line. Yes, you have crossed that line for sure. Emotional fallout spills into other areas of life, like sleep. They're having a hard time going to bed because they're anxious about it. ⁓ School is suffering. ⁓ Relationships are getting hurt. Right. Like I hate Wednesdays because every Wednesday I have to go do this thing. Or all day they're angry at their siblings. day before they're already thinking tomorrow is this and this. Yeah. You can see they're on edge the whole time, right?
Number three, you notice physical symptoms like, ⁓ stomach aches, headaches, or they're shutting down. Yeah. Yeah. It's there because even though they've maybe voiced it, but their body is now talking for them. then finally, number four is there's a loss of joy and just a loss of feeling safe. You know, like, and so you don't see any joy coming. I mean, think that's the point of the activity. It isn't just to do it. hope joy is a part of it, right? And this isn't just about a kid having occasional bad days.
This is about patterns that you're noticing, right? You want to be thoughtful about these, right? And so here's an important distinction. Walking away ⁓ is not failure when it's done with reflection, support, and dignity. So I want to say that again, walking away from something, even as adults, ⁓ is not failure when it's done with reflection, support, and dignity. Backing off can actually protect the things ⁓ parents care about most.
So actually you backing off can actually do this cool thing of create space for the kid to actually own it themselves. ⁓ Instead of just suffering and doing it. Just doing it for you instead of doing it for themselves. ⁓ So we want to kind of talk about some benefits we've seen in our own parenting our own kids when we have back.

Kyle Wester (25:1.676)
Like when we haven't, know, because I like, my tendency is to keep pushing, pushing, pushing. And your tendency was like, hey, let's just back it off. Let's back it off. And it was hard for me to trust that sometimes. But what I did notice when we did that, when it came to sports, when it came to other activities, it protects trust in the parent child relationship. You know, like what I see, what I saw in our relationship, but also with kids I help, Sarah's kids start to go, my voice matters.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I heard my opinion matters. What I think and feel is real, you know, because otherwise you're sending this message like, you don't like it. Well, that doesn't mean I'm a baby or something. can't seem to do that. Yeah. Sweeping it all away. You just do it. Yeah. And second, it preserves your child's sense of agency, meaning their autonomy, that who they are and how what they desire is different than you. And that's important. Yeah, it's really
Because a side note, we won't go there, but you want to feed kids ability to have agency, motivation, desire to do things. And if they're always just doing the thing they don't want, you're ⁓ kind of killing that. We want to feed agency. We want to feed kids listening to what motivates them and using that as a driving force in their life because that will carry them through lots of different things in And the third, it increases the likelihood that they'll
ever try it again. You know, so like, and they may not, they may decide never to come back to it, but lots of kids do. hear a lot of kids do end up coming back around to it because they're like, I actually did like it, but it was almost like I couldn't even tell them my parents. liked it. Cause if I did, they pushed me even harder. Right. And it wasn't even their choice, but if they can walk away, then they might decide, you know, you know what? I actually did like that or I miss it, but they need that chance. We we've probably all had that experience in life or it might be a branch of it. Maybe
they, you know, love music, but they didn't want to play piano, but they want to sing, you know, so you see things kind of shift and you see the child driving that, is going to be a lot more powerful in their lives than if something else is driving. Well, and also it's cool. As you say that you begin to see who they are ⁓ instead of them just doing what you think's important to them. And it's really cool to see that blossom. Right. Well, and you can be afraid that they're missing out on this thing, you know, like, you piano, you're missing out on that. But really, if you think about

Kyle Wester (27:17.440)
if they're always choosing piano, then they are missing out on other things too. so, yeah. There's so many things you can't do. Right. And when a kid does feel trapped there, they, don't actually build perseverance when they feel trapped. All they do is get better and better at resistance. They better and better saying, I don't want to do this. This, don't, ⁓ I'm so frustrated with the fact that I keep having to do this. Right. So, so the last kind of section that we wanted to do is kind of, how do we, okay. So we talked about if we push
Here's some positive elements of it. Here's ways we know we're pushing too much. ⁓ But now we want to do this principle called the circle back principle. ⁓ The past matters. ⁓ This part ⁓ of the section matters so much because many kids actually do, like you said, they'll return later on their own when all the pressure is removed, when they finally feel the freedom to pick it. They circle back.
when their skills actually mature and then maybe they can be actually more successful at it or when their confidence grows or when their identity feels safer, like it's not all wrapped up in whether or not they do it. ⁓ And then also when their autonomy increases, like the sense of ⁓ who I am is important and doing what I want to do is important. I'm choosing this, yeah. Parents who allow respectful exits ⁓ often raise kids where ⁓ this happens, okay?
is where one, ⁓ they re-engage voluntarily, so the kid will re-engage voluntarily, two, the kid can take ownership, three, they persist longer the second time. my gosh, I've seen that so many times. Kids who were doing a certain sport and then they wanted to quit and then when they chose to do it, there wasn't, are you gonna practice? ⁓ They started doing it, because now they loved it. ⁓ They wanted to do it. And it actually, sometimes it's even harder.
and yet they're choosing to do it because it's theirs. know? Yeah. And instead of having to be like, Hey, you need to go practice. You need to go, you know, like you see the kid rise him and doing those things on their own because they've got that internal drive. And then I love this. They start to trust themselves more deeply ⁓ rather than questioning themselves. Like we were talking about before, you know? And so this reframes quitting. So the take a moment, think of this reframes quitting as just information. Yep. Like it's not a verdict. It's not like, you quit now.

Kyle Wester (29:31.214)
I I know I thought this Sarah like you quit now you can never go back like this. You could never come back and you're gonna quit or forever. Yes. Yes. And instead really the whole point of doing all this. Yeah perseverance as partner. It's also like gaining information about what you like what you don't like right what you're good at what you're not good at right like everything you want your kids either I can all be good at it, you know, and it's building that curiosity which is gonna serve them their whole lives. What is happening inside of me? Why am I walking away?
what you know and that's what we we want to grow that ability. Yeah and this aligns perfectly with researchers. ⁓ Effort grows best when it's connected to meaning and agency and not fear. So if they are not afraid then these things that you're actually wanting to grow in them can actually happen. Afraid that they'll be labeled a quitter, afraid to disappoint you, afraid they'll never be able to do this again if they walk away now. Yes. You know so I just want to frame what fear can look like.
and we don't want that to be your motivator. Yeah, so here's some grounding principles that we try to hold to and we just encourage you to do as well. So number one, finish commitments when possible, but revisit ownership. So yeah, think finishing commitments is great and we can talk about that, right? But who's really owning that? And that's what a lot of our conversations have been with kids when it comes to activities is like, who is the one really choosing this? And that's important to just reflect on that and really help.
have that discussion with the kid, because that's going to help you all throughout their life. Number two, separate your fear from your child's experience. I think that that's really challenging. is. It is. Because we do, we have this great ability to look long term. But it kind of sometimes works against us, because we really do feel this pressure.
And maybe your child does need to mature and they are growing this and we know they're growing it because of the brain science. But it's really hard not to get to worst case or no, what's happening here? We're raising a quitter. This is all my fault. Yeah, once you get rid of the fear too, then you can do step three, ⁓ which is ask reflective questions instead of trying to persuade or convince. ⁓ I've never done that.

Kyle Wester (31:41.422)
I've never tried to persuade or convince never tried to make a compelling argument as to why they should continue No, but I love when you ask the reflective questions you you get some surprising answers You you mean you really get to know your kid more deeply and also you help your kids start to ask them Self-reflective questions and like they start to go do I really want to not do this? You know and they then can if they want to keep doing they persuade themselves You know instead of you being the one makes your job easy. Yes number four is it also preserve it
Preserves dignity if your child excess and activity so it doesn't seem like when they quit that like you said There's all the shame of like you're a quitter. You don't do hard things, you know And then the fifth one is it leaves the door open without hovering or guilt, know So it's like it leaves the door open for them to circle back like we said and there's a here's a powerful reflection question for you as a parent Okay, so just to reflect on this. Am I protecting my child's growth?
or am I protecting my own anxiety and fear? Right, so just be thinking about that when it comes to these activities. So the goal here for Sarah and I isn't to raise kids who never quit. Now that might have been my goal early on. ⁓ My goal now, my goal now isn't to raise kids who never quit. ⁓ The goal is to raise kids who, and let this seep in, who know how to struggle, reflect, adjust, and reengage.
without losing themselves along the way. That does sound better. ⁓ That does sound better. My previous goal was short-sighted. ⁓ Put that up on the wall. And that is real perseverance. And that is what is going to last a lifetime. Yep. Right? Good stuff. We've to remind ourselves of this all the time. Yeah. And so I know these questions are going to be coming up.
especially as you're going into the spring and there's all these opportunities, summer camps, that's a big one. So many parents like, I want them to go to this summer camp. And you've got to sign up for it and like it costs a lot of money. And all Yeah. I mean, it feels like it's January, but you know, within just a couple of months, you're having to decide all the things to get your, your child's spot saved. Yeah. And so these are great conversations to have about those camps, about those activities and like,

Kyle Wester (33:57.464)
really to reflect upon your own fear and anxiety of them missing out on them. my gosh, if they miss out on their chances, the scholarship. Exactly, they'll never know if they would love that and like all that. And somewhat having just trust that being connected with them, being with them in it is, that's the one thing you don't want to lose above all that stuff. yes, that's the thing that you want your whole life. Yeah, so I hope this was really helpful and gave you some real tools on knowing how to sometimes push, sometimes back off.
and to really do this in connection and relationship with your kid because they wanna do it with you. They don't wanna do it on their own. So ⁓ if this is helpful to you, please definitely leave a review, a comment, share this with other parents you know that are struggling with this, with sports and other kind of activities and ⁓ just really think this will help equip them to ⁓ not ⁓ have these beautiful things, beautiful opportunities be a tool of separation and ⁓ resistance and all that stuff in the relationship with their kid. ⁓
I hope you enjoyed the episode today and that you have a wonderful day.