Episode 162

Episode 162 Transcript:

When I was a child, there was clearly one goal that was set by most adults in my life to define my value and whether I was a good kid or not. And that goal was typically obedience. Meaning did I do what was asked of me right when I was asked to? Did I do it without question? Did I do it without thoughts? Did I do it without any pushback? And what we have found out is that goal can lead to a lot of problems in a family. It can definitely hurt your relationship with your kid.And it also doesn't play out to raise adults that know how to really get along with other adults, especially in marriage and in other areas of their life. So today we want to talk about the goal changing from obedience to cooperation. So if that's a goal that you definitely experienced as a kid, we want you to dive into this conversation with us and hopefully we can present to you just a different perspective, a different way of seeing this and equipping you with.clearly four ways of how to shift that in your family. If you're wanting to move towards having a cooperative relationship with your children rather than one just based on authority and obedience, typically using fear and shame as a way to control a kid's behavior. Now, if you've not done this already, please take a moment to like and subscribe to the podcast. Definitely give it a review, some comments, love to hear your feedback.on your thoughts on obedience and cooperation. How were you raised? What was the goal there? We'd love to hear all of that input. And so take a moment if you want to get a pen and paper, you ready to take some notes and enjoy the conversation.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:2.637)
Hello and welcome to the honor of raising humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sarah. And today Sarah, I wanted us to dive into two very important terms when it comes to parenting. Okay. A lot of what we were raised as kids, a big goal, like one of the primary goals was obedience. Yes. You're a great kid because you're so obedient. Yeah. And so I think going into parenting for we ever had kids, I don't know how you felt about it, but
I didn't know any other word to describe the outcome I would be looking for. And even as an elementary school counselor, even the outcome I was looking for necessarily with kids when it came to how they related to teachers or how they did what I asked them to do at school. But typically obedience was seen as like the gold star. It was like, that was definitely what you were shooting for. And an obedient kid, like you said, typically was seen as a good kid. As a kid that teachers and parents...
As a parent, you'd think I'm a successful parent. Look how obedient my child is. Yeah. was a, it was definitely, I think an important measuring stick, you know, and if you reflect back on it, you know, that was a significant measuring stick and I think it still is, know, yeah, it's still as a measuring stick. often use for.
how the parent as well as the child and how they measure Oh, a lot of parents when they come in for coaching, they'll say the kid is either obedient or disobedient. He's a real obedient kid or he's a disobedient kid. So they'll use it as way to describe some kind of value about the kid. This kid is easier because he's obedient or he's a better kid because, or he's just a good kid. He's really obedient. You might hear those kind of thoughts or statements made. once we started diving into just the research and the...
and just all the different kinds of parenting approaches that what we noticed was the, was just another word that I thought was just more helpful that actually described the kind of human being I wanted our kids to be. And that was cooperative. Yep. Definitely not something we sought out to do. It wasn't something we intentionally like, wait, we don't like this word. I didn't question it. I don't know if the

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:12.718)
listeners questioned it, but I didn't question it. so when, but when cooperation came along, uh, and I was reading more about that, learning more about it, it was definitely, Oh, that makes more sense. Well, and as a couple, think it's important, you know, if you're working together as parents to define some of these terms, because once you say a word, like once I'm thinking, if my goal is obedience, I want to be thinking, well, what does that mean? What kind of human does my kid become? What kind of adult will they be? So if they're an obedient child,
What does that raise? think there's an inference. Such a good point. We really have to have that picture. And then do I want them to be an obedient adult or do I want them to be a cooperative adult? Yeah. You know, so let's take a moment and kind of define those words because I think it's important. So when I hear the word obedience or when we heard it as kids, typically it implies a kid that's compliant with authority, often without questioning. You sometimes when I, it's almost seen as when I say jump, you jump.
Yes. And the instant, yes ma'am. Yes, sir. Yes. You know, you've been told to do something by an authority figure and you are quick and you immediately do what they say. And that was gold star. Yeah. And almost, almost a hundred percent of the time obedience is either rewarded or punished. Yeah. So typically those kinds of things are reinforced. Obedience is reinforced with rewarding or punishing. So if you are obedient, then you'll be rewarded with at least, um,
uh the parents' approval. Yeah. So they smile and praise and yeah, the positive affect and emotion and love. Yeah. And I even noticed that early on when our kids did what I asked, when I hadn't first kind of challenged this thinking, I would want to be more loving.
I would want to do like, let's go get ice cream. The kids have been so easy today. Every time I asked them to do things, they just did it. And there is this kind of idea of like, what if I just said, go do the dishes? And everyone was like, yes, sir, I got it. And like, there is this sense of that. And if they didn't, well, then I've got to like ground them or spank them or do something. It seems like that's always good. And even teachers, daycare workers, you know, it's like, your child is good. And

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:22.348)
I think most, oh, I know what that means. That means you told my child, my child responds and does what you say. When you say, no questions. so obedience is also tied in to external motivation. So the kid knows if I'm not obedient, that adult's going to be upset with me. So I want to do what they're asking because they'll be more happy and enjoy me and love me more. I remember an M &M jar.
in our daughter's classroom. That's true. would get a little M and M if they picked up toys and you know, did the things that she said when she said to do it real quick. I remember that. And I know she meant it positively. So it's not even, I loved this teacher. Um, you know, but I think just if we all just pause for a second and think about that, yeah, you get an M and M if you're obedient. Yeah.
Okay. So then the other word that we really want to switch this to, and if we're coaching parents, I always want them to switch their goal from being obedience to being cooperation. So let's define that. So cooperation, we would define it as voluntary collaboration, rooted in trust, empathy, and mutual respect. kind of want you to just say that one more time so we can really absorb it. Cooperation is voluntary collaboration, rooted in trust, empathy, and mutual respect. Yes.
doesn't that sound beautiful? It does. Yeah, it's really beautiful. And I think it's something at least if people are, you know, was outside of what I'd ever considered for a child to be, you know, that, it's it's mutual. It's built on risk, respect. It's built on this trust, you know, that wasn't something that I had really wrapped my head around or built into a relationship with a child when I was first
kind of rethinking this. Well, and this never would have been the thought in my mind about my parents' goal. They wouldn't even have thought of this. And I think also it sounds beautiful in every relationship. So that sounds, I would love to have a friendship, obviously, that's a voluntary collaboration rooted in trust, empathy. And what about a marriage? A voluntary collaboration rooted in trust, empathy.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:28.398)
in mutual respect. Workplace. Yeah. A boss situate, all those kinds of things. That would be a fantastic place to live in. I most, a lot of businesses, if you're in that world, that is a direction they're moving. If they're not already, I know back 10 years ago, easy, 10, 15 years ago, the board meetings and staff meetings were all going in this direction and they haven't for a while. Well, and also cooperation, it encourages internal motivation.
and emotional intelligence, right? So it's really, the kid is wanting to do the thing you're asking from this internal locus of control rather than this reward or punishment. I'm only going to do it because I'll be, you know, that, you know, punished or rewarded. So I'm always doing something for what I get out of it. And I'm always doing it for some external thing, not something based on who I am and how I want to show up. would encourage you as a listener to take a moment and think about that.
I think a couple of lots of times when I'm talking to parents about this, first, there'll be this kind of pushback a little bit about that of one, I didn't know that was possible. You know, like I didn't know that even existed. I didn't know to even think of this, but now that you've kind of planted this in my head to, is it just an ideal dream? You know, I mean, I really sounds nice. Yeah. It's just even a thing that can even happen, you know? Um, and I want to tell you, is, it is. And I know we obviously have friendships that are
done this way, our marriage is done this way. And so yes, it can be done with kids too, but it really takes an intentional effort to say, I don't want the goal that obedience seems to imply, which is this jump when I say jump, this external motivation. I want something deeper, something where when I ask them to do something, they do it out of this internal place that says, I want to do that because I care about you. Yeah, you're doing it inside of relationship. It's really.
Well, let's identify the problem with obedience as a goal. So when you have obedience as a goal, it's problematic. Why? Well, first of all, it's short term wins, you know, like it's short term. So really the obedience that you get from that. Yes, sir. I'll do it now. And this is spoken from experience too, that I've seen Sarah working with kids for many, many, many years and you as well. It's a short term win, but over a long term, creates disconnection because the kid

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:47.914)
is learning to not even listen to themselves. They're only learning to just please you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, uh, you know, I always feel a little sad in this. I've definitely worked with some kids who were obedient and, um, got abused that way. And, so of course that's like, Oh, worst case scenario. So not to say that's everyone's future, but, but that I want, I wanted kids to learn to listen to that inner voice and to have a trust for that inner voice.
And not that it always needs to come from the outside. All my motives, all my, everything about me is bad. I can only trust this authority figure here. They know everything the best and I should just always look outside of myself for what I should do and who I should be and all that. Yeah. Well, and I know with what you're saying there, sir, it definitely does. We're not trying to scare people, but it definitely does make a kid more susceptible to being taken advantage of, right? If they believe
the ultimate goal of every encounter with an authority figure is just to do what they're asked to do. And we've seen a lot of everybody listening has heard story after story of whether it's with a police officer or a teacher or somebody at church or coach. This is how they typically get taken advantage of is they think they can't say no.
that saying yes is the only option. Yeah, I'm supposed to obey. I'm supposed to comply. I'm supposed to do what you want. Yeah. Well, so that typically leads to the second thing was children become people pleasers, rule followers, right? Or Sarah, the other flip side is they just become rebels because they think they, yeah, they think the only options are either I do everything you say, or I say, forget it because I can't seem to please you. Yeah. I'll just do what I want. Yeah. Yeah. And that, we don't want either one of that, right? Wait,
that we also can raise kids that are not independent thinkers along that line, right? To where they're not able to really check in with themselves. I remember clearly one time when our kids were in some kind of classroom type setting and the kids had made a comment, I think our son in particular, he was maybe like six, that he thought we wanted him to do whatever the teacher asked him to do. And I said, no, so that's not my goal. You're in that classroom, I know that teacher. I do trust that teacher. I wouldn't have you in that classroom if I didn't.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:56.578)
But that doesn't mean if that teacher asks you to do something and you kind of go, Oh, I do want you to take a moment to think about it. Right. And then you could always say no in that moment and then come back and check with us and we could go back and talk to that teacher about it. And maybe that was a moment to say yes, but maybe it was a great idea just to pause and say no. Yeah. So we don't want you to be a mindless drone who just does whatever they're asked, but we also don't want to raise a kid who can never say yes. And it's always just quickly saying, no, I don't want to do that.
And once again, I love this as it ties to what kind of adult they're going to be because this is their training ground. If all they learn is yes, now what kind of adult are they going to be? So of course they're going to get it wrong sometimes. But if I think of this as this is their chance to learn, to listen to their inner voice, to learn to critically think through situations. This is what's being presented to me. What are my options? What's going to happen if I choose a
What's going to happen if I choose B? Because that's what they need to learn because as an adult, they're going to be encountering that all the time. Choices, authority figures, people telling them what to do, being pulled in this direction or that direction in college, all the time. so don't we want them to make their mistakes now? Don't we want them trying out that skill now so they can... uh
be there with us to correct mistakes, to fumble, to grow, so that they have that skill built in later in life. Well, and I'll wrap it up. You did a great job there, Sarah, but I'd wrap it up by saying kids raised on obedience may struggle to say no to unhealthy peer pressure later because they've been taught compliance over critical thinking. know, compliance and obedience is put higher than actually stopping and thinking, which does make it more likely those negative peer pressures.
even from just friends can take place, right? Okay, so we've talked about the problems with obedience and making that a focus. Now here's why we believe cooperation builds stronger, more resilient kids. Okay, first of all, it fosters self-regulation, like the ability for them to regulate their emotions. It fosters responsibility and also intrinsic motivation. So what do we mean by that? Well, it kind of creates a kid who in a moment can regulate their emotions.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:11.320)
can stop and think, what am I responsible for here? What is my job to do in this moment? And then they can move forward, not because they're afraid of what's gonna happen to them if they don't, or even what they're gonna get out of it they do, but they can say, is this something that I think is good for me and others to Yeah, does it serve me? Does it serve others to help me? Does it help others? And I get so excited about this, because it's amazing to see in a child. It's amazing to see it grow. And wow.
skills is that compared to, you know, I thought, oh, obedience, obedience, obedience. But then when you learn about this and you see it in action, it's so exciting to see it developing in a child. you think, wow, now obedience just sort of fades away for me because the beauty of this and the richness of this and how it prepares them for adult life is, excellent. Well, Sarah, I'm even thinking as I say that, like that's, this is stuff I was learning in adulthood, right? This is stuff that you and I, since we were raised that obedience was the goal.
It kind of, was hard at times, even as an adult to interact with other people in authority. And maybe you think, I don't think that's the best way to do that. I don't think, I don't think what they're asking me is, is ethical. think that's incorrect. And even then to take a stand and say, I think we need to change that. I don't feel comfortable with doing that. Am I allowed to go and challenge my boss? Yeah. Without, cause those skills hadn't been already built there. then you find yourself in your twenties, maybe even thirties thinking,
How do I challenge my authority figure? How do I counter this? What should I do in that inner turmoil that you just never learned how to deal If I can even use a silly example, but I think a lot of our listeners will understand this, is you and I grew up even with a stereotypical kind of roles that even a wife and husband played, right? And I remember early on in our marriage, you were working full time, you were coming home, and you felt like part of a good, obedient wife.
was like to come home and make dinner every night and I just remember thinking like, man, like you don't need to do all this. Like if you don't want to cook something, we can just go get something and go out to eat. And I remember even then you felt like, no, no, this is what a good wife does. And it took probably a year or two. But the conversation like this. didn't know how. I didn't know, to me it was just to be good, to be worthy. This is what I have.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:33.538)
to do. I'm supposed to clean the house, do laundry, make all the meals, grocery shop and work a full time job. like, good Lord. You and I never really had to sit down and conversation about it, which is that we're getting a hold. But yeah, but just the, was a piece of me when I look back, there's a piece of me that definitely questioned. thought what's happening here. You know, but then I thought, well, I just threw out the questioning because it was what I was supposed to do. Yeah.
And yeah, it would have been great for you and I to be able to check in more with ourselves on that and then know how to have that conversation. It wouldn't have been so And what that would have looked like is cooperation. We could have just cooperated with each other instead of thinking there's any kind of obedience thing that was involved in that. Or like I say, things that I'm supposed to do to be a good person. Yeah, it wasn't even obedient. It was obedient to the role. Exactly. That's what I meant. Not even you. It's not like you were telling me. I know.
Well, I mean for the audience, saying he was not telling me to do that. just for the general idea of being obedient to this role in life. So cooperation also strengthens long-term connection and respect. So even like I love that idea of this mutual respect and I would see this with teachers who are great at this Sarah, that the teachers who didn't demand obedience from kids, but instead looked for cooperation as the goal, you saw kids
respected those teachers. And what I mean by that is that it wasn't yes sir, no sir, but they really like for years later would talk highly of that teacher and how much that teacher cared for them and how they would have done almost anything for that teacher. Not because they were afraid of that teacher, but because they had love and mutual respect for that teacher. That if I asked that teacher, that teacher had that exact same feeling towards that Yeah, they built in that cooperation instead of just the top down.
Yeah, and it's really beautiful to see. It also prepares kids and this is a big one because I think a lot of people think obedience will prepare kids for the real world. It actually doesn't. Like actually cooperation prepares kids for the real world because in the real world, you're working on teamwork. You're figuring how to cooperate together at your job with other employees. And it also teaches you how to be a leader. Yeah, think about the job you hope your child will have.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:42.958)
because there are plenty of jobs for people who are just worker bees, who are yes people who will do it there, but then think about the kind of job you hope your child has and most people I think dream about a job where their child is a part of a team and they're working towards something and there's gonna be give and take and push and pull.
and collaboration and these are the skills that set them up for that. Versus the go do this. Yes, sir. I will go get that task done. it's to kind of wrap up those two segments there about obedience and how it's defined and cooperation is really Sarah to wrap that up is obedience asks for and invites control where cooperation asks for and invites connection. And that that's why we want to have that in our house. We don't want our house.
to be a house where we're learning how to make obedient drones. And then because what that leads to is then kids expecting other kids to obey them who are younger and weaker, we want to seek out that connection. Okay. So what this looks like in practice, okay. So common, I'm sure there's lots of people going now. Oh, wait, how do I do this? What is this? They imagine their house just out of control, whether having to negotiate things with their child all the time. once again, we'd ask our listeners move out of those two spaces.
because it's not about you being in control or about them being in control. Once again, kind of go back towards what Sarah and I talk a lot about this. These are skills that work in every relationship. So you don't go talk to your friend thinking how do I control my friend and get them to do what I want? Or how does my friend get me to do what they want me to do? Right? Or in our marriage? I'm not thinking about that. If I'm wanting to go do something in a few weeks, I don't think how can I somehow get Sarah to let me do that.
Right? We're seeing how can we cooperate towards these things we want. Right? So a few areas of conflict that you typically see these things rise up is how do I do this with morning routines? Like getting ready. I just need them to do what I'm asking. Yeah. I need them to get the code. schedule. We're going to be late. It's really important. I've to get to different schools. I got to get to work. Yeah. I need them to obey me about homework. Like when we say we're doing homework, we're doing homework. This is their grades. Their whole life depends on this. Sibling.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:43.690)
conflict and fights. When I tell them to stop it and leave each other alone, they need to do it. Yeah, yeah. They aggressive, hurt each other. If they don't obey me. too hard to imagine in this. Yeah. uh A fourth one is boundaries on technology, right? So when I tell them they can't do that, they can't get social media. I need them to obey those rules. Yeah, because if we talk about it, they're gonna say, yeah, I need 10 hours a day. Yeah. And here's a big one. And this is why
If you have little kids, I would encourage you shifting this at that early age because the fifth one is teen independence. Okay? Because that's when we can really start shifting to the, need them to obey me. You know, when it comes to curfew, when it comes to who you hang out with, who you date, all those kinds things. you're doing in school. Yeah. It gets scary. And if up until then, Sarah, all we've been doing is seeking obedience rather than cooperation. Now you're going to be kind of like in a real pickle because like,
at the teenage years, they have much more independence and autonomy and they're driving and now you actually- want it. Their brain is wired to want that more and more because they're trying to step out. They're wired for this, okay, time to step out and grow in this independence. So you're going to have a whole lot more pushback where you were able to manage that maybe when they were smaller, but now it'll be really difficult. Yeah. So when they're young, learning how to seek cooperation rather than obedience. So we'll give you some clear
steps to do that. Here's a good example, Sarah just wrote this down. Instead of saying do it now, or you lose your phone, right, which that might be a common one when it comes to wanting obedience from a kid who's got a phone is trying something like what's our plan to stay on track. So we have time later for what matters to you. Right. So like that sounds like something we might say to each other. You know, instead of you say, put your phone down, Kyle, like we're trying to, you know, like, I thought we were gonna get this.
we would talk to each other on this like, hey, how can we stay on track so we have time to do that thing that you said was important? So this is like a clear example of kid being on a phone and not doing their homework. And they're wanting later on to go do things with their friends or something like that. So instead of saying, put it down and demanding they do it, even the success of that is they need you to do that every time as opposed to them being able to like regulate themselves, being able then to go, that's true, I do want to go later. If I put it down now, I can do the homework.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:7.758)
There's so many beautiful outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. We do that with our kids. It's like, hey, summer break is coming up. How soon do you want to be done with this stuff so you can get on summer break? How do you set those goals? How do you look at that? When they were little, I remember a small example of they loved reading books before bed. And uh not as a threat, it was, oh oh,
okay, how many books do you want to read, then we need to get to the bath by this time, you know, so that they because they loved reading lots of books. did. That's right. But if we weren't if we didn't get to these other things, then we wouldn't have much time for that. But it was a partnership, not a threat as well. You're going to be only get one book if you don't. Yeah, no, it was a partnership with them. And you think what skill is that building? We did that with them then.
And now here it is, they're much older and it's, summer break is coming. How do you want to get there? Well, let's do four examples, four ways. So if you have a pen and paper, I get ready to write down these four ways how to shift from obedience to cooperation. And these aren't all the four, but we just four that we thought of. So number one would be collaborative problem solving. And that's kind of what you just did. And that's kind of what that example is, right? So we're collaborating with our kid on how to solve that problem.
So they're doing this and they need to shift to that, right? Or how do we solve this problem? And that leads to, especially, I remember doing this with the kids when they were four or five years old, Sarah. And what that leads to is really easy conversations now when they're teenagers, because we've been doing this for a long time. Yes. Yeah. And they're kind of used to that. it's, again, I just, my favorite thing is thinking about the skills that are being built in them to look at all the pieces.
to identify their goal or need or want, whatever it is, how do I get there? What are my options? Which one am I gonna take? Those are amazing skills that young people need. People going into the workforce, people going to college, they need these skills. CEOs will pay them a lot of money if they know how to can identify their I'm telling you, CEOs are not paying a lot of money to people who just obey them. They wanna pay money to people who can.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:19.064)
collaboratively work together with others to solve big problems. And it starts with the little things of how am I going to get my dinosaurs into their storage bin? the second one is getting into the habit of validating their feelings and asking open-ended questions. once again, this worked great as with little kids. It was hard because I just wanted to get things done. I like if I say, it's time to put up the toys. I wanted them to put up the toys, but if there was pushback and I took time to say, Hey, you seem really disciplined.
almost every time Sarah, having a lot of fun. Yeah, they would say I was just really enjoying. I was almost done with this story. Oh, you were I didn't even know you're right in middle of story. And then how long do you think that story is going to take it typically, I was almost finished. you just give me couple more minutes, I'll get and you see some people think that that sounds like negotiating. I'm not negotiating. I'm actually caring about what they're prioritizing because I want them to care about what I'm prioritizing, right? It is time to start getting ready for bed. But go ahead and finish that story up. I had no idea how important that was. You and many times they're afraid they're going to forget that story.
or they're gonna like lose track of what was happening. They were having so much fun enjoying that story. And so by validating those feelings, I'm connecting with them. And then I'm asking those open-ended questions to invite them into reflecting on how to solve the problem that we're now facing. Yep. And you can still hold those boundaries, all of that, because it's not in your story there. It's not an example of, now the kid gets to stay up till 10, because their story is gonna take two more hours. We still had the boundaries.
but it was elevating that what my child is feeling is important and I want them to know I see them, I hear them, I value that and we can still accomplish this other thing. Both are possible. Number three is offering choices within boundaries. And I don't mean do this or else something bad's gonna happen. Those aren't choices. So I remember like choices for us would look like the kid, might be time to put up those toys or it might be time to leave somewhere.
and I'm asking them to pick up some stuff, like put up your clothes or whatever, and there is some pushback, right? And they're not cooperating quickly. So I might say, hey, do you want my help or do you wanna do it on your own? Do you wanna pick up that side or do you wanna pick up this side? So you quickly move into giving them options on how to cooperate. In that moment, they think that we're against them, that we're resisting. I'm not against them, I just think they're feeling overwhelmed by the request, so I'm gonna help give them choices, almost like,

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:40.686)
and putting it down into bite-sized things so then they can pick a path and then we can now work together to accomplish the goal. Yes. Yep. Okay. Number four is, this is a hard one for me, Sarah. This is a hard one, especially early on. Staying calm and modeling the behavior you want to see. Yeah. So, instead of demanding obedience and then getting mad, I'm saying like, oh wait, I actually want to model cooperation.
So if cooperation is what I want them to see, how can I regulate my own emotions, modeling that to them, and then cooperate with them to achieve a mutually agreed upon goal? That one, think, probably raise your hand if you've ever had a hard time with that, everyone be raising their hand, right? Because you're dealing with so much of your own internal stuff at that point, you could be triggered by something, you weren't allowed to have that response or...
There's all kinds of things that as parents, we're not saying this is easy, but are we saying it's worth the extra effort? And it's really the growth on our part. It's the growth on our part. And if we put that in, there's huge payoff. Well, and like I said earlier, like it changed me. It made it where I didn't think my goal in life was to just obey every.
it was to work together and towards cooperative goals, which helped me not only be a better employee, a veteran eventually now be a better employer and a better parent and a better friend. And that's really, you want your kids to be able to do that with other adults. So here's how we would suggest if you're struggling with this, you're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard. My, my here's, here's three things I think will help you be able to shift that mindset. If you're open to shifting it. Number one is just take time, just take time today or this week to reflect on how you were raised was obedience. oh
with love or worth because I know it was for me and I know it was for me Sarah because I noticed how much more loving and how much more worthy I thought our kids were when they obeyed me. you know good insight. Yeah, second thing would be challenged the internal narrative that's telling you if they don't know if they don't obey I failed. Yeah, because there is a lot of shame about that. That's a good point. Sometimes it's not even about our child, but it is about

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:58.050)
us and everyone's looking at me everyone's looking at my child in this moment you know how is it a family get-togethers I think a really good test of this is also when you go to the store if your child were to do something and all the eyes turn to you you know those are really good times for you to kind of notice your own internal process yeah and that's a really again that we're really big on that here is just
looking at your own internal reparenting or working starts with us. Yeah. Well, you probably have a great point. Those family gatherings, grandparents judging you. Now, obviously, once again, guys, don't get in this dichotomous thing of either they're saying yes, sir, no, sir, or they're running around like crazy. That's not neither one of those are the vision, right? And so noticing that that maybe the family gathering, the kid isn't following your directions. They're not cooperating. But
don't let that narrative that you have failed if they're not obeying you. It is to just notice it and say, okay, I'd like to work on the relationship. I wanna work on connecting and then doing that better next time we're in that family gathering to where when I ask them to do something, we're able to cooperate with each other, okay? And then the third one is recognize that parenting is not about getting control. This is big. It's about getting.
Influen- or building influence with your kid. So it's not about getting control It's about building influence and if you can listen to that the getting control piece only quote-unquote works or even possible for so many years of their life, but building influence That's something you want until you die is you want to be able to have some influence in the decisions your kids are making. Again, it's yeah, it's like the we I know we talked about this is in our little notes beds Do you want your 30 year old?
calling you up, right? Because that's because you have influence. That's because you built the influence. And if you think you can do obedience now and you're going to switch to influence when they're 18, I just, I don't see that happening. You've kind of lost, you know, you really, you really risk the relationship and you're kind of crossing your fingers, hoping that can happen. Sarah, when we aim for obedience, um, we may win the battle, but we will lose the relationship.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:8.800)
And I've seen that way too often with the families that we coach. So just some takeaways, some closing thoughts for you. Cooperation is a skill. And like any skill, it takes time and modeling. So don't think you're going to change this and just boom, the kids are like, awesome, let's cooperate. Especially if they're used to thinking obedience is the goal. You you've trained them that certain dance, it's going to be difficult to shift that. takes time, just like in a marriage to shift those expectations. Yeah. I think I just really want to stress that because I think
We can begin to doubt ourselves, question ourselves, be worried. You know, as parents, we're hard on ourselves and you need to give yourself time to learn and grow, realize this is a process and your child's gonna learn and grow and that's success. It's not that we wake up tomorrow and everything's different and better. The growth is success and that's okay to make mistakes. Yeah, and when we invite our kids to participate in the solution, we raise kids who are capable of solving problems
not just following rules. And I every listener says that would be awesome. the last thing is true influence comes from connection, not control. I'm just telling you this, that rules do not govern behavior. It's the connection and the relationships that do it. So when kids know that you care about them, when they are deeply connected with you, they are so much more likely to do what you're asking. Rather than when they're afraid of you or trying to get a reward out of it, that is just a short term.
that you're accomplishing, it's not a long-term thing. So I really hope that this conversation helped you and your spouse, whoever might be in this journey with you, to rethink the goal of moving away from obedience and instead growing and cultivating cooperation and influence with your kid. And we just know from personal experience that that's gonna lead to uh your kids being much more successful as adults in the future because those are skills they need to be successful. So thank you for listening today.
And I hope you have a great time practicing this this week and noticing how this shift is uncomfortable, but you'll start seeing positive changes within the relationship soon. Yeah, it's worth it. We appreciate you all.