Episode 224

Kyle and Sara Wester (00:00.956)
Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, everyone. I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, I think one of the biggest things that changed how we parent or really helped me, specifically as a dad, focus on parenting differently was understanding attachment with our kids. And you would not let it go. You kept telling me about how zero to three is like such an important part of their life, and Kyle, it's gonna affect the rest of their life.

I I thought it was overblown when you were telling me at first, but then as I started to engage it, read about it, study it, see it with our own kids, I saw, man, this attachment thing is such a gift that we can give our kids. And it's something that we continue through the years. Yeah. And yeah. So I'm very excited about it. We were like, we haven't talked about this in a long time. We haven't. Should we talk about this? Well, we should, but then we should have somebody who's really good at talking about this.

And that is Eli Harwood. She is the attachment nerd. If you've not caught her on Instagram, you're missing out. So you definitely need to get on there. So without further ado, I want to welcome Eli. Thank you for joining us today.

Eli (01:03.532)
Thank you for having me. I mean, anybody who wants to nerd out on attachment with me, I'm it.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:07.122)
Can you do us a favor and just so our audience, like I said, I'm sure many of them may have heard of it. Some that I see in my practice, they've not heard of it. So I would love for you kind of break down what what do we talk about when we talk about attachment theory? What are the attachment styles, all that kind

Eli (01:25.006)
Okay, so attachment theory developed in the 1950s, and I actually now refer to it as attachment research because we it's no longer just a theory. We have incredible data that that validates it. But the theory back in the day was what if, what if the way that human beings develop is related to the relationships that we experience? And especially in those early years, and some of those.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:33.714)
Mm. Yeah. It's great. Yeah.

Eli (01:54.659)
Theoreticians, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, Mary Main. If you're a dork, you might be like, yes, yes, yes, Harry Harlow. They were, they were looking at the specific quality of a child's relationships with their parents and how the quality of that relationship was affecting the way the child was developing and then how they did later on in life. And we have 70 years of incredible research.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:59.57)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Eli (02:22.754)
That's been replicated for those of you who are not nerds. This is really important. Cause somebody can do a study on something and say, here's the claim. But if it's not done again and again and again in different contexts and different times with different variables in terms of who's being studied, then we don't know for sure. Was that just a one-off? Was it just that study itself? Or was this really revealing something true? And so this body of research has been validated and replicated enough.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:30.895)
Yes, yeah.

Eli (02:52.236)
That we know it's not just a theory. The way that a child develops is deeply affected by the way that their caregivers relate to them. So attachment is the dynamic between a caregiver and a child, the quality of a relationship. And that dynamic is not just early on, it's throughout the entire lifespan. And it expands. As a child grows, it expands beyond caregivers.

into friends, eventually into sweethearts, community. It's our close relationships. And so my goal in nerding out on the research and sharing about it with parents is to really help parents feel confident that when you are creating a quality relationship with your child, you're not coddling them, you're not, you know, being too soft on them. You're actually giving them the ideal environment to help their brain develop.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:21.147)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:39.451)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:45.776)
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yes. Love that. Okay. I want to jump right into can you explain what are the different types? Yeah. You know, as they're out there. I'm sure people maybe they're familiar with them, but I think it's really helpful to look at what are we talking about? What does this mean? Yeah.

Eli (03:55.982)
Mm.

Eli (04:03.896)
Case. Yes. So first I want to say that the internet often popularizes things without nuance. So those of you who have heard of attachment before, you might have heard someone saying attachment styles, and they're talking about this is what your style is, this is what and I think that's really appealing from like an easy, quick thing to understand. What I want parents to know, however, is that that there's two different bodies of research.

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:18.085)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (04:32.386)
So one of those bodies of research kind of looks at like, how do you relate to your romantic partner in adulthood? How would we call that what's that's the style thing. But when we're looking at parenting in children, the research is actually done on a relationship. So we're really looking at how does a child respond to a parent based on how the parent has been responding to the child.

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:55.631)
Mm. Yes.

Eli (04:55.926)
And most of most of the information we have from this comes from a study by Mary Ainsworth called The Strange Situation. And what that study discovered is that there are generally four patterns that a child engages in in relationship to their parent when they feel distressed or tender. So that's all very specific. you know, attachment is what

What helps children survive a period of their time where they of life where they're vulnerable to injury, they're vulnerable to starvation, you know, they can't feed themselves, they can't protect themselves. So there's this instinct, absolutely ingrained in every human child, to want proximity to a caregiver as a way to survive those early years. But not all caregivers have the skills to make that.

Process feel comfortable and reliable. And so these four patterns are based on the caregiver's ability. So if you as a parent are able to be predictably responsive, warm, and sturdy. So when your kids are crying, when they're scared, when they're upset, you notice it, you say, I'm here, I see you, you acknowledge it, and you can

Stay calm enough in your body for them to borrow your calmness. So they come running into your arms, Mama, Mama, Mama, you know, and you pick them up and you hold them and you're able to say, I'm here, I see what you feel, I can handle what you feel. If that is the typical pattern in your relationship, no one does this all the time, but if that's the typical pattern in your relationship, a child will develop what we call a secure attachment pattern.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:31.525)
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.

Eli (06:38.454)
And basically what that pattern boils down to is when they feel emotionally dysregulated, they seek you out for support. So it's reaching and it's clinging and then it's receiving what you give. And so you and that child get to cultivate this beautiful dance where you're helping their limbic system. But we call this limbic resonance, you know, where you're helping them regulate and feel safe. And actually, neuroscience has shown that is act thickening the executive functioning parts of their brain. And it is

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:57.787)
Hm, yeah, yep. Yeah.

Eli (07:07.158)
Reducing the size of their reactivity brain. So that's that's this is our goal. And we're all working towards this. The other three categories, one we call an avoidant pattern. So this is what a child does when a caregiver is predictably ineffective at soothing. So that might be somebody who is uncomfortable with emotions, so they ignore emotions. that might be somebody who is

Deeply preoccupied with emotions. And so they're always coming in hot with anxiety. But the point is, the child learns, I feel worse when my caregiver comes near me. So the best way to cope with my dysregulation is to hide it and distract myself.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:37.307)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:45.305)
Mm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:52.975)
Yeah. Hmm.

Eli (07:55.225)
So the secure baby says, I feel tender, I'm distressed, I'm gonna reach for my caregiver and receive their care. The avoidant baby says, I feel tender and distressed. I'm gonna hide it so that this person in my life doesn't make it worse. And so that I don't burden other people with this emotional information. people will often think, that's just a really chill kid. and there are chill kids, chill kids exist, but the avoidant child we know.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:10.147)
Yes. Yes. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:16.547)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, I've gone, of course. Yeah, huh.

Eli (08:22.978)
They don't show outwardly as signs of distress, even though they're having them inwardly. So we've done like cortisol tests, we've done stress tests on their skin, looked at urine and their diapers. I mean, we've done the whole nine yards. They have the same stress response. they just don't express it. So we call that an avoidant pattern. And why they're doing that, I want people to really understand this. They're not avoiding attachment, they are maintaining proximity to a caregiver who can't handle emotional dysregulation.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:45.989)
Yeah. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:51.643)
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah.

Eli (08:53.096)
I need you still. I know you can't handle what I feel, but I need you near me. And so this is this is the best way I know how to keep you near me, is to not need much from you. Okay. Third category we would call a resistant or ambivalent pattern. And this is when a caregiver is sometimes able to be emotionally soothing and effective, but not enough to be predictable.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:00.271)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (09:18.552)
So this might be someone who, a parent who's really struggling with undiagnosed, unmedicated bipolar disorder, or has a drug and alcohol substance use dynamic, or is in an abusive relationship, or there's some, you know, bouts of depression. The child has some understanding that sometimes my parent can help me in these moments, but they also have some understanding that sometimes they don't. And I don't know why.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:25.413)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eli (09:47.531)
Or what is happening, I just know that it's unpredictable. So this child develops a coping pattern where they are constantly clingy and constantly aware of their caregiver. That that secure child, they seek their caregiver, they get soothed, and then they go back to playing with their toys. Then they go back to exploring the world. The avoidant child never seeks, they just play, right? The world is the only thing they can focus on. The this resistant or ambivalent child is.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:58.556)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:04.433)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:13.083)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli (10:16.73)
so full of anxiety that it's very hard to play and explore because they feel like it's their job to keep their eyes on the prize. I've got to make sure that I'm watching you and what you feel so that I can give you what I think you might want from me so that you will stay close because I feel responsible to make you stay close to me.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:34.154)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (10:36.522)
Okay, then the last category is little bugs who have caregivers who are frightening in some way. And so that could be that can be abusive patterns, that can be like deep undiagnosed mental illness, like schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder. that could be neglect, profound neglect. When a child's caregiver is a source of threat, it disorders.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:43.631)
Yeah, man. Yeah.

Eli (11:04.97)
organizes their attachment instincts. Those other three categories are all organized. You know, the secure kid says I'm going to seek help and receive it. The avoidant kid says I'm going to keep my stuff inside and regulate through disconnection. And that resistant child says I'm going cling for my life. When your caregiver is frightening, those organizations don't work. So I don't, nothing I do works.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:11.119)
Mm. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:23.631)
Yes, yeah.

Eli (11:32.686)
And so I feel unsafe. So they're those little nuggets are are left with a profound sense of fight, flight, freeze, faint, and fawn in response to distress. Ugh, it's painful. I mean it's trauma. It's deep developmental trauma.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:32.837)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:42.278)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it is. I'm sure. I know. Very sad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How could you speak to I think something that I've tried to work hard knowing kind of where I how I grew up and at times how I had one caregiver who was more the secure attachment type and the other one who I did avoid and did not do that. Right. And so

Eli (12:05.1)
Mm. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (12:07.825)
My goal has been in my marriage, but then also with my kids, is to have, you know, what what I've read about, heard about, talked about the earned secure type. Okay. Could you speak to that about how because cause it that gave me a lot of hope of like, it doesn't have to be this way. And then that that's what, that's actually what got me really sold into it was Sarah was like, as we do this well with our kids, it does also heal that thing in us.

It heals us. And that that's I I think is so beautiful about parenting is I've seen myself heal and grow by loving and being there for my kids in ways that maybe I wasn't loved and cared for. And that's been so, so powerful.

Eli (12:43.54)
yes. Yes. So a couple things. So there's almost two questions. The first question is children are the human child has the advantage of multiple caregivers. And we have something that's also called allo caregiving, which is we can receive care from people that we are not biologically related to. What a gift. That's why we can teachers play a role, you know, nannies, babysitters, grandmas, aunties, everybody, uncles. so

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:03.663)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:08.401)
Yes. Yeah.

Eli (13:13.3)
Children develop specific relationships. So a child can have a secure relationship with one parent and an insecure relationship with another parent, or an insecure with both, but of two different flavors. That was my childhood. I had an avoidant dynamic with my dad, who was a functional alcoholic, had no ability to give regulation and support, and a ambivalent resistant dynamic with my mom, who had unresolved childhood trauma and went through bouts of depression. So that there are the reality of

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:22.545)
Sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:38.95)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli (13:43.191)
Attachment is not you become one thing. And I think that's part of what the internet kind of boils it down to. you know, a lot of people will be in dating relationships and they're like, I guess this means I'm this. And I'm like, well, what was it like in a different dating relationship? And they're like, it was different. I'm like, well, let's look at why and what's happening in the dynamic. but all that to be said, there is no point in anybody's journey where it's sealed, signed, and delivered. So if you and your child, if you're listening to this and you're going, ooh.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:43.481)
It's nice.

Yeah, yeah. I I agree. No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:54.322)
No. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (14:12.922)
I have not focused on that. I have focused on behavior. I have focused on respect. I have done everything I can to make my child a well-mannered, good kid. And I have not really thought about how they feel when they're tender and coming to me. And man, they don't come to me. That it's not too late. You can shift that dynamic. That's why I also became obsessed with the research, is because it's like, this is hopeful. If I work on

My patterns, which is about understanding my patterns, where they came from, why they developed, and then learning how to be more emotionally present, grounded, secure, open. My child will adapt to that. Kids are kids are so good at picking up on that type of information. Like, whoa, something changed in dad. He's all of a sudden more understanding. He's more tender. He's more present, was a word that you were using earlier, Sarah. And I think that's important.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:53.317)
Yeah.

Yep, yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Eli (15:09.102)
So yeah, you know, it I want parents not to go, what style am I? I want you to go, what relationship am I cultivating with my children? And what skills am I currently using? And do they belong here or are they from the past? And if they're from the past, because you know, avoidance is a skill, hypervigilance is a skill, but those were skills you needed in a different circumstance. So what's the skill I need now? And how do I develop that so that my kids can gain skills from me?

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:13.455)
I know. Hmm. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:26.969)
Yep, yep. Yeah.

Eli (15:38.616)
they can use throughout their whole life instead of just with

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:42.32)
Yeah. Yeah. I I love there's there's so many little pieces that are floating around in my head from what you just said. I just I love that, you know, early on when our kids were born, I was really like, we you know, we've got to do this when in the young years. but the great hope, and as we continue with this, it was a long, you know, this while ago, how much it's always it's something that's rolling through life. And I love that because it gives hope to parents who look back and feel, you know, you can feel that.

Eli (16:06.125)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:10.765)
Even I where I think, I kind of messed that up. You can feel this guilt like you've blown it with your kid. And to know that it doesn't matter what age they are, it can always shift. And I worked with some beautiful families for many, many years who were who, because of what how they grew up, had learned these survival skills, had learned how to move through life in this way. And then suddenly realizing that it wasn't working, it wasn't getting them where they needed wanted to be now.

Eli (16:20.749)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:38.875)
And it was and it wasn't creating the relationship they wanted with their children. And and as that as that hits you, it can hit really hard. And so I love your message of hope and that forward look of it's doesn't when you notice that about yourself, that that's not your written story. It's something that you can create and move forward in the way you want to go to build the relationship you want with your child, to build those patterns with your child that you want to.

Eli (16:43.096)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:08.385)
I wonder if you can kind of speak to cause when that can hit you or when you start to see that, it can feel a little overwhelming of what what do I do? I mean, this is new, or maybe I know a little bit about it, but I'm just not sure about the step to take. Cause you you you know, as a parent, you feel, no, I've gotta fix this today, you know.

Eli (17:20.854)
Yeah.

Eli (17:24.366)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (17:29.026)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:29.497)
So I just wonder if you can kind of speak to that a little bit 'cause I know we've been on a journey, still on a journey. You talk a little bit about your journey and the work you're doing inside yourself. So can you speak to that a little bit to I just wanna give hope to parents and realize it is a process and people like us are out there doing it too. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (17:36.61)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (17:43.404)
Yes.

Eli (17:46.935)
Yes, no one is not doing it. You know, there's no like parenting expert out there who, you know, every single day they are attuned and responsive and regulated. That's not a thing. and and our kids, our kids are ever evolving. And so, you know, there's an ongoing education, like thinking of parenthood as a as as an a stage of education in your life, and you're learning about who your individual children are, you're learning about yourself, and you're learning about

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:49.455)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:55.698)
Exactly.

Eli (18:16.608)
what the relationship needs from you. So if you're listening to this and you've gone into that panic mode where you're like, my gosh, this is not how I've thought about it. Or I've thought about it like this, but I'm just not sure that I'm doing it right or my kids are getting what they need. I I've made a couple of paper parents for people is what I call my books, because, you know, ideally we learn this stuff in relationship. You know, having a therapist can be really helpful. you know, I have a

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:28.517)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:33.573)
Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Eli (18:43.084)
I have a parenting group as well. People can join. And if you can't afford it, I don't care. I have a pay what you can option. You know, so looking for resources, looking for books that you can absorb that help you really understand it. But I would say don't overreact. Like your job isn't to go leave this podcast, go to your children and be like, I failed you. I'm so sorry. Let me fix this. Yeah, that's not going to be helpful. it's actually just gonna replay the same dynamic as they're like, once again, you need me to take care of you.

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:45.179)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:01.963)
That's right. Your attachment sucks 'cause of me.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eli (19:13.192)
you you really want to get into an understanding of your story. So all of us, all of us evolved in these relationships. and that is best done with other people, truly. So if you don't have a therapist or a partner or a mentor, a community, come join the secure parent program. But find other people who can witness with you and help you work through how you were related to. What were the messages you learned?

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:17.691)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:27.589)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (19:40.203)
About your needs and your emotions and what relationships are for. and then you have to grieve. most of us run very fast from an awareness of what those relationships were like if they weren't secure. because that it's painful to really look at it and go, wait a minute, when I was sad, you know, my my dad said, like, I'll give you something to cry about. Like, that's a

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:03.333)
Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or or or like Eli, when I was in college, broke up with a girlfriend and I was spin two weeks. My dad said, What are you doing? I said, I'm I'm just kinda down. He said, Are you still whining about the girl? And and then I remember I remember feeling this feeling of like, I'm not gonna talk to you about anything again. Like it's like no more you get access to my heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (20:15.926)
Eli (20:21.358)
Yes. Yes. Right. And how different would that moment have been if he had gone, I'm so sorry. What how are how are you doing? How's that affecting you? You know, like I've been through heartache too, and it sucks. Like what you know, how what do you need? Do we need to go get ice cream? You know. Ice cream is a very excellent medicine for many, many things in life. Yes. Yo, so

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:28.689)
I know, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:35.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Of course. Yeah. It's a great way to heal attachment at any time. Yes. Yeah.

Eli (20:49.87)
Yeah. What what had what did you grow up in? And giving yourself some of the space to really process that because when you offer that tenderness to yourself and you receive it from other people, it makes the process of giving it to your children far more authentic and natural. it's it's not a panic, crap, I messed it up response. It's a, I know what it feels like to be cared for and understood.

And I want to give that to you now too. so finding people who can teach you what it feels like to be cared for so that you know how to care for your kids. That's huge.

Kyle and Sara Wester (21:22.767)
Well, and what I love what I love about that, Eli, is what what happened in our marriage, and this is something that when we're coaching parents, we're telling them.

The the the the conflicts that arise with our kids, all too often what you see we're we're and we end up helping kids who are going through divorce. And lots of times those divorces happen because conflict arose that the parents didn't know how to resolve with each other. And then they want us to tell the kid, it's not your fault. But it seems like it is your fault because these problems weren't there until you came. You know? And that's and so what what I was kind of once Sarah and I bought into this idea and understood how we wanted to parent and the vision we had, I was like, I think the

Eli (21:37.367)
Mm.

Eli (21:43.478)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (21:47.318)
Mm.

Eli (21:51.726)
Mm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (21:59.14)
These moments, these conflicts with the kids are actually there to strengthen us, like to help us understand each other better. And if you have a partner you can do this with, well, what that looked like for us was like every time I overreacted to something, and Sarah, Sarah would do really good of when we came back to resolve that conflict that we had, she would say, you know, and we're kind of borrowing this from Brene Brown, but she was like, What's the story you're telling yourself? You know, what's the story?

Eli (22:03.222)
Mm.

Eli (22:22.389)
huh.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:23.409)
And then and then as I revealed that story, it helped me better understand myself and her understand me. And then she could reveal. And typically we were misreading the story altogether. But as we took the time to actually communicate that, then man, that became such a tool with our kids. And then now our kids they don't think their conflicts make mom and dad turn against each other. They think their conflicts help mom and dad grow together and help.

Eli (22:44.994)
No.

I love this.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:48.709)
Help be. So then the kids are like, it's okay to have problems because mom and dad know what to do with them. And it's actually going to bring more intimacy in our marriage rather than more isolation, which is what it tends to do. And so that that's right. I hope i ever any listener who's listening this will will understand. That's just a simple thing to do. It's just like, what's the story you're telling yourself? And that goes back to what you're saying of just kind of you reflecting on that and better understanding where that story began and how it's informing your behavior.

Eli (22:59.01)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (23:14.582)
Yes. Yes. And reflection is in the research, we call this reflective function. It's a massive part of secure relationship. So when we can pause in an emotional moment, in a misunderstanding, and we can reflect, what's happening for me? What's happening for my child? Then we are far more likely to repair and reconnect during that conflict and make that a positive strength-building interaction than to.

You know, throw feces and push each other down, you know, into the slides of blame, shame, and distance. I like to say, and so this is in my first book, Raising Securely Attached Kids. There's a chapter called Secure Conflict. And I like to say that all conflict is an opportunity for discovery. And and we we don't all have that experience growing up. And so meant so another point of reflection is what was conflict? What did I learn about conflict growing up? In some households, conflict is not allowed. We must

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:45.563)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:54.617)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:00.667)
Love that. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:12.75)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (24:13.512)
only be nice and pretend. And so we in we engage in denial and avoidance. In other in other households, conflict is an excuse for abuse. You know, now that we disagree, I am justified in calling you names, in punishing you, in stonewalling you. so that that experience leads someone to believe that all conflict is dangerous. Conflict is where we hurt each other. You know, and so I think how we model as parents

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:23.205)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:35.845)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli (24:42.478)
conflict is going to become an internal story for our kids. What does conflict mean? What's the meaning of it? I mean, it's always hard and it's uncomfortable, but if I'm learning something and you're learning something together, then conflict is an opportunity to get closer as well as a hard time.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:58.043)
Yes. Yep.

Yeah, yeah. And I I I think that's why those early years are so helpful because there's so much conflict. Those early years, and for me it was just the lack of sleep the kids were getting and the way they kept waking up at night. And I remember how I dealt with it with my oldest Abby, was just like, Stop waking up. Like I just was so mad about it. And I almost felt like God Himself was like keeping me from sleeping. And I just put the baby to sleep. And then by my third, I had this like aha moment.

Eli (25:10.51)
Mm.

Eli (25:18.314)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Eli (25:23.854)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:29.403)
where I was holding my youngest Ellie and she had had a rough night that night. And by then my confidence as a dad had grown. I wasn't feeling so insecure. I knew my love with with Sarah was was safe and secure as well. And so I was able to be up at night and I wasn't freaking out. And as I was holding Ellie during a sleepless night, the thought hit me like, how would Ellie ever know I loved her without these nights?

Eli (25:49.598)
Mm. Mm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:50.682)
And how would I ever be able to like, how would she ever know? Like how would I ever know that she loves me, right? Without us bonding in these moments, like this moment is actually impivotal for my parenting. That without this moment, I don't get opportunities to help wire them to know that I will be there in the darkest of nights when you're crying and screaming. I'll be there. You know? And I just thought this this night's actually beautiful. Why was I so mad before?

Eli (26:01.538)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Eli (26:06.712)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eli (26:11.724)
Yes.

Eli (26:15.502)
Well, you were sleep deprived. I mean, I and everyone is affected by that differently, you know. And so I think, and you had expectations. So so many people have expectations that as a parent, I am going to teach and train my child the correct actions starting day one. And that's a really naive understanding of brain development. Children aren't cognitively processing for a very long time, honestly.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:20.493)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Eli (26:40.01)
It takes a long time for them to start making connections. So those early years, they're hard on parents because you're not getting enough sleep, because there is a constant need, but also because parents often have unrealistic expectations about what babies can and can't do. So if you know, I've seen a lot of parents when, you know, there's d dealing with sleep, and I, you know, I just say, did you know that's actually completely normal? And that kids walk at different stages of life just like they learn to sleep at different and the pe parents are like,

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:48.113)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:55.897)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:02.629)
Yes. Yes. Yes. It's huge. That is huge. I know. Yes. Right. Yes. Yeah.

Eli (27:09.486)
It's like remove the I'm doing something wrong or my kid is doing something wrong. It's like, yeah, sleep is hard. And we don't, you know, modern modern life is not the the ideal environment for mental health for young parents and children. It's not. It's not. And so, you know, that's hard. We were supposed to be, we are still wired. I say this, we're wired for attachment, but we were wired for attachment in the context of a village.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:25.211)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not, no. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:37.009)
Mm yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (27:38.089)
And communal rhythms, you know, if if you've ever had the experience of like being with your family in like a camp setting or like a group setting where it's like, here's what dinner time is, here's what bedtime is, here's what this activity is. Kids thrive in those environments because everyone is in the same participation space. You know, I mean, granted, that can be overstimulating for neurodivergent kids. There, you know, there's like exceptions and all of that stuff, but in general.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:45.893)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:57.466)
Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good.

Of course, of course, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yes. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (28:06.462)
One of the hardest parts about parenting babies, toddlers, and young kids is you are the structure. So it is you constantly saying, And now it's time for this, and now time of that. And that is one nervous system regulating everybody instead of a group of nervous systems regulating everybody. And that it's it just takes more effort, you know. So you're tired.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:24.645)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So that that yeah. So that leads me to my next question that I think comes up a lot for couples and families and if you're co-parenting with someone and with that that feeling of, okay, I'm kinda learning about this. I'm kind of trying to steer things a different direction. And I'm noticing that my style, my patterns beer differ a lot from the person that I'm parenting with.

Eli (28:54.456)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:54.861)
And I don't know what to do about that 'cause I see what I'm doing and trying to do and where I'm messing up or trying to change things, but then the other person's doing a whole different thing. And when those two dances are very, very different in the same home or even couple homes, but with these kids in a major part of these kids' lives. What do you you know, I'd love your feedback thoughts on that to share because I know that's a real big one for parents.

Eli (29:04.43)
Mm.

Eli (29:19.128)
People. So I would say this: there is an evolutionary advantage in marrying someone who's very different than you are and having kids with them. They have skill sets you don't have. And so the goal is never for you to become the exact same parent, but it is to be clear on what your values are together and what some of your goals are for your children. And so

you know, thinking about that in terms of like how do we get on the same page, even if we're writing different things on that page. you know I think it becomes a big problem for kids when it is creating a heightened sense of conflict and like power struggles between parents. I would argue based on the data, the one place I do want you to do everything you can to be on the same page with is in being highly responsive, present, connected.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:49.701)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (30:13.942)
relational in terms of how you're interacting with your children, especially when they're tender or in distress. because that being able to create an environment where kids can rely on both of you will help for those moments when mom is just freaking fried and done up to here and, you know, or dad is like, whoa, my my trauma's triggered and I can't interact. Like because then kids can use each of you. It, you know, so the more adults with a skill set for

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:25.125)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:35.087)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (30:42.86)
relational connection, the the more protective factors there are in that child's development. So you know, but let's say, let's say we are never getting this other partner on the same page with that. As long as they are not abusive, then what part of what your job is as a parent is to be like, well, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna give my kids that and I'm gonna actually benefit from that. My, my, my kids are gonna come to me. I'm gonna be the one who knows when they broke up with their

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:48.209)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:06.981)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Eli (31:09.934)
College sweetheart. I'm gonna be the one that they ask for advice from. And that will be sad for my partner. And my but my partner can always choose to engage in that, you know, and I can say, Hey, I'd love to tell you what I'm doing and why I think they come to me. If you want that information,

That's probably not gonna be the moment in time that person says, Yes, I wanna do that. You know, it's it I like some of that is like a are you ready? Are you ready? Because a lot of times people don't wanna become relational with their kids because if I do, it means I have to be sad about not having gotten that from my own parents. I think it it's a it's a grief opener.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:30.907)
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:43.024)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Wow. Yeah. That's good. It is. And I I think I like what you had kind of pointed to earlier. the couple things. I we can't choose it for the other person. Yeah. Right. We we can choose it for ourselves and we can decide how we're gonna show up and be with our children. And sometimes we try we want so badly to control that or something and and we can't. We can just offer

Eli (31:55.246)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (31:59.043)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:06.245)
But that's it. But you earlier talked about how children will develop multiple attachments, right? So even if we're the one person who's showing up for our children that way, they're still getting that from us. That's still something they can carry into life. Yeah. And I love the hope that that brings because sometimes you can be very worried depending on the situation, a divorce or something where you're really concerned about your kids. But the hope that exists that if I do the work and I'm showing up for my kids that way.

Eli (32:06.251)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (32:12.002)
Yes.

Eli (32:19.213)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:34.875)
they're still they're benefiting from that. That's something they can carry on in life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (32:38.446)
Hugely. Hugely. I mean, and and that's that is what the data says. If there is at least one caregiver who is able to offer that sense of safe haven and secure base. And safe haven just means you make me feel better when I'm in distress. And secure base means you can tolerate and cheer me on when I want to go explore the world. Right. So and when when a kid has one person that they have that experience with, that internalizes very deeply.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:00.069)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eli (33:07.052)
And it all it kind of acts as a buffer for the other negative relationships as well. Because, you know, if you have one dynamic that feels secure, it's easier to look at the other one and go, This is off. If you have no dynamics that feel secure, you don't have that same protective factor because you just know something's uncomfortable all the time. And kids tend to conclude at that point, something's wrong with me. Why don't I feel good? So, yes, you work on your dynamic.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:11.057)
Sure. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:28.121)
Yeah. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Well w yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And what I want to encourage all the listeners too is I I definitely had that with my mom, the secure attachment where I knew my mom, I could always go to her. Anytime there was a breakup or I was scared or worried, she was always a great listener. Didn't have it with my dad. But I think having it with my mom helped me be able to get into a marriage with somebody I could have it with. You know? And if I hadn't had it with either one of them, I wouldn't have even known what that felt like, you know. So along the way, as I dated, I was like, no, this isn't the same. I I need someone in my life who's able to do that too. And I I I want to point out as well, there were these aha moments because I know.

Eli (33:47.938)
Mm. Mm mm.

Eli (33:53.986)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:02.769)
lots of times it can be the the it's it's not gender specific, but in a lot of the work we're doing, lots of times it's the dads who have a hard time being okay with the weakness that their kid is showing or the sadness. I know it does trigger me at times too, because you feel like you've got the like, I'm okay with crying, but like enough's enough. Kind of you gotta feel like you got to do that. Yeah.

Eli (34:08.398)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eli (34:19.404)
Well, you've seen the the violence that can be aimed at a person for being vulnerable. And I mean, now we're talking the problems of patriarchy, because you know, when we when we teach boys at very young ages you are no longer an emotional creature, you've got to shut it down and be tough. We rob them of the ability to tolerate emotional states. So I, you know, what I say to men is like,

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:23.62)
Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Yep.

Yes, yep, yep, yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:44.891)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eli (34:47.192)
Here's the irony. You think it's weak to cry, but actually, if you teach your kids not to cry, what you've just done is weakened their ability to tolerate emotional states. And then they are more likely to act out and shut down and use substances. So your strength that you're giving your kids is you're teaching them, I can handle what you feel, which means you can handle what you feel, which means you will have more emotional resilience as a result.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:57.615)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

Eli (35:15.404)
And when feelings come in, you won't panic with shame and shutdown and blow up. You'll just feel your feelings, work through them, figure out what you need and move on.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:21.208)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:25.251)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I and and I there was an aha moment I had with that where I used to as a dad kind of judge Sarah when the kids seemed to cry more with her.

And I know that's like that. Like the kids were always crying. And then I'd kind of be like, they don't do that with me. And I'd be like, Well, what a badge of honor. You know, and Sarah would be like, Yeah, but that's not good. Like they should be able to cry with both of us. And I remember I watched it was some some war movie that had come out. I watched it with some buddies of mine. And I'm I'm sitting outside the theater with all these guys. We're chatting about the war movies. that was a pretty good movie. And then as as we're getting in the car, I call up Sarah. I Hey, I'm heading home. And she goes, How was the movie?

Eli (35:35.458)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:00.601)
And as soon as Sarah said that, I just began to cry. And there's like parts in the movie that really and then I said to her, Is this what you do to the kids? Like as this movie too? Like, I was just fine a minute ago. And she's like, All I did was say, How was the movie? I'm like, I know it's the way you asked it. Like you asked it in such a caring way. And that's when I realized I want that skill. I want my kids to know dad can ask that question that way too.

Eli (36:25.794)
I mean, she what she did was she said, Your internal world matters to me. I want to know your experience of this, you know. And I mean that's life's greatest gift is to to be trustworthy enough for the people we love to show us their full unedited self. And yeah, and and here is the truth. It is a messier process as a parent. So raising secure kids is messier than raising avoidant kids. It's messier than raising pre because

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:29.05)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:43.151)
Yeah. Yeah. that's beautiful.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:52.409)
Yes. Good point.

Eli (36:55.372)
Because if I teach you that what your inner world is signaling to you is important and that it matters to me, then then it that gets space and airtime while I'm trying to put the dishes away, while I'm trying to get you all to camp. Like it's messier. Mm-hmm. But

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:07.685)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When it's bedtime. Yeah. Yeah. When it's bedtime and all the emotions are coming out. That's when they they love, you know, it's I mean that if you give that minute at bedtime, you'll just all the things you didn't realize were happening in the day start tumbling out. Yeah. Yeah. It's a yeah. Yeah. But that's a really good point to point out. Yeah.

Eli (37:15.758)
Eli (37:23.114)
Absolutely. So but but it's messier at the beginning and it but it gives you a more clear, coherent understanding of what your role is and what you want to do. And then it's easier in the long run. Because in in the long run, you know, I'm just thinking of my son this week, you know, he has a group of boyfriends who they when they hang out, they get a little rowdy in a way that he doesn't love, like a kind of manic.

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:29.413)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:50.073)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Eli (37:51.497)
you know, and he was able to be like, you know, once this other kid comes into the mix, I don't really want to be here anymore. And so his friends continued to hang out and he came home and he called other friends and did other things. And I spent so many hours. I mean, I'm I wish we could calculate. It's probably thousands and thousands of hours in his younger years responding to his emotional cues, teaching him to notice them and what they're called and what they are. And

I'm honestly feeling pretty judged by other parents of boys in different settings. I kind of like, are you gonna let him do that? And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna let him do that. but I watch one of his peers actually recently said to me, Well, we don't cry anymore. He said that about their age boys. We don't cry anymore. And Slate goes, Mom, tell them what you told me. And I'm like, Well, the less you cry, the less joy you feel, you know, and this is like opening that up. And I

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:22.149)
Yep, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:34.181)
Mm. Mm, yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:44.129)
Yeah, yep.

Eli (38:47.458)
He has an advantage over his his peers because he has felt and I had a disadvantage over my peers during certain years because I was attending to those feelings instead of shutting them down and moving on. That would have been so much easier.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:50.427)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:59.429)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. You put in that work. And and I love the beauty of the relationship moving as they get older and older. You know, and how it does it builds that foundation that keeps going through the years. And and for us, a big goal of ours is to have, you know, my 16 year old come to me. I want my 20 year old to come to me. I want my twenty-five year old to come to me. Yeah. And the work we're doing each day now.

Eli (39:21.784)
Yes. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:26.781)
makes that possible and keeps that relationship through the years. And I just that part of it, now that we've been doing this work and my oldest is 16 and s and then I can see like, here it is, here it is. It's, you know, it's the relationship I wanted, the relationship I work for and continue to work for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And well and I wanna wrap up with this. You have a new book and I we love the title. So how to deal with your how do you say it? How to deal with your

Eli (39:43.374)
So sweet.

Eli (39:48.672)
Yes.

I usually beep it out. I s cause there's no we didn't put any swear words on it because I'm like, this is a parenting book. We don't need a book with swear words on the cover, but it's how to deal with your poop so your kids don't have to as much. An encyclopedia for ditching your emotional baggage. Basically, you know, I used the term paper parent before, but I think when you didn't have an emotionally secure, present parent to learn from, you probably have a a more primal response to your emotional states, whether that's you swim in them.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:55.942)
Yes, Victory. I know, yeah. Yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Eli (40:22.304)
And you feel overwhelmed and you're you can't shut them down, or whether that's you avoid them, or they just make you freeze. So this book has an encyclopedia style where a how do I deal with feeling anxious? How do I deal with feeling angry? How do I deal with feeling rejected by my children? You know, they want the other parent more than me, and that triggers something in me. How do I deal with feeling jealous of my children? You know, when we break cycles, there's an odd experience of.

You know, what like I worked very hard to create an income bracket for my kids so they wouldn't have to have struggle in the same way I did when I was little, where it was like, are there gonna be enough groceries? But then my kids don't understand the amount of privilege they have. And so then, you know, I have my own feelings about that, where it's like, but you okay. So anyway, the book is set in a

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:00.101)
Yes. yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:04.827)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Eli (41:13.208)
Topical organization so that you can go to it during a moment you are overwhelmed and go, what is happening for me? What is this emotion? What does it mean? How can I learn to regulate it? What can I teach my kids about it? and then there's further reading on each topic as well. So, you know, if you're reading through one of those and you're going, this is gonna be harder than the five pages that Eli just gave me. I need more. There's here's the books you're gonna read next. and you know, bad habits, things like

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:35.033)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eli (41:40.651)
a blaming habit or a control habit or a permissive habit. You know, how do I break these habits that are about the generational inheritance that I got so that my kids have a secure dynamic with me? so that's out now. You can also read Raising Securely Attached Kids. I have a mother-daughter journal and a mother-son journal that you can use called Uniquely Us, you know, to just help build some of those conversations between the two of you. It's fun too, like some of the questions are, you know, entertaining and there's like little suggestions for activities.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:52.251)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:59.395)
great, awesome. Yes. cool. Yeah.

Eli (42:09.532)
that's great for if you have kids that are like between eight and fifteen. If you have like a a deeply relational older cut child, they're great. They're not like too young, but it's just that's a good window to catch kids in for journaling with you. so and then the secure parent program. So if you are, you know, wanting some extra support on that, there's that. I have a podcast too now called How to Deal. can you tell that I am an overachiever? And that I

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:13.329)
Okay, okay, perfect.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:21.741)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yes. Yep.

Yeah.

Eli (42:37.378)
Put my value in productivity. Great.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:39.537)
Yes. Yeah, I I can relate. I can relate. Yeah. And what what I love about what you're doing and the work that we're we're trying to do along with you too is is too often, like you said, we grew up without much, similar to you. It was always a struggle, right? And we like we don't want that for our kids. We we want to make sure we're investing in our education. So we obviously we all went and got educated, you know. We're investing in

Eli (42:44.287)
Eli (43:00.654)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:04.263)
use learning how to use money, learning how to actually not like like not just grip onto it like with dear life, but actually try to do something with it. we're learning how to even create networks and relationships with it. So all those things we did intentionally, but it didn't hit me until we had the kids that like, there's another legacy that I want to leave for them. And it is this attachment legacy. It is the ability for them to know how to make.

Eli (43:06.125)
Yes.

Eli (43:22.519)
Uh-huh.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:28.729)
relationships that are healthy and they can trust the attachment. And man, that's that's I think so many parents don't think about that. They think about the other. You know, they're trying to eat healthy. They're trying to exercise. But like, yeah, but how are you responding when the kid is in distress? You know, that's actually gonna help them have better marriages and be in better jobs and so forth. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (43:32.248)
Yes.

Eli (43:39.384)
Yeah.

Eli (43:47.042)
Yes. And actually have better health. We know it's related to health outcomes too. Less cardiovascular disease in people who have had secure relational experiences in childhood. It's really cool. So I love it. I love your work. So so glad to be here with you all.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:53.541)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well what's all the ways if they want to know more about your work, where can they find you?

Eli (44:06.746)
attachment nerd dot com is my website. I run my mouth for free on the internet at attachment nerd, pretty much anywhere you look on the internet. And you can find my books wherever you buy books. So Amazon or if you like to go to an indie bookstore, you can go to them and say, Hey, can you order, you know, Eli Harwood's books for me? However, you wanna however you want to get them.

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:10.905)
Okay. Yep, yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:23.577)
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And you recently on your Instagram just had a great reel. I love that reel of grandmother reading the book and then the mom reading the book. And then you that was fantastic. Because that does describe kind of the generational shift that we hope we're at the forefront of and helping parents get there to make this world a much safer place. Okay. So thank you so much for being on. We really appreciate you great. You giving the time and look forward to seeing your continued work going forward. Bye bye.