Episode 220

As a parent, you know that kids these days are being inundated by all types of voices. all throughout social media. Come on, that's horrible. Okay. Take six, take six. Here we go. I'll get it. I'll get it.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:33.463)
As a parent, have you ever heard of terms like looks maxing? Do you know how to talk to your boys and girls about pornography? Do you know how to have those conversations so that they're not weird and awkward and that your kid just is gonna close off and not not talk to you at all? Do you know how important your guidance on these subjects and and your ability to connect with your kids on them and be able to hear their thoughts on it, how it's impacting them and

Their friends. Well, we wanted to bring somebody who can help you navigate those very important, but also just tough and sometimes awkward conversations. And that's why we're bringing to you Daniel Principe from Australia, who is going all over Australia and talking to boys and listening to boys and hearing how these messages are impacting the way they see relationships and the way they see women and the way they see success and how it's been getting distorted.

But he's he's trying to invite boys into something like having character and really having meaning and purpose in their lives. So we we wanted to have him on to really help equip you to have those tough conversations that I believe your kids actually want to have with you, even though it can be scary and it can be vulnerable. And so I know you're gonna really enjoy hearing his passion about it and really come away equipped with exactly the steps and the ways in which.

You can change your thinking on it so you aren't just scared to death and freaking out, but instead feel encouraged and excited to be on this journey with your kids and kind of helping them navigate and disciple them through these tough subjects. So take a moment right now, if you haven't already, to please rate, review, and comment. We'd love to hear your feedback. I know Daniel would love to hear your feedback on these topics and maybe other topics you'd like him to cover as well, because he's willing to come back and do more of that.

but we'd love to hear your feedback on how something like this is helping you navigate this stuff with your boys and your girls. but also if you need help in this area and you need some real one-on-one coaching, reach out to me at Kyle at Artofraisinghumans.com. And I would love to talk to you about how I can coach your family to create the relationship to where you can have these tough conversations because your kids need to have them. So without further ado, I've talked enough, but get ready to sit back and enjoy.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:57.523)
Daniel from Australia kind of walk you through these very tough subjects. And I know you're going to enjoy it.
 

Kyle and Sara Wester (00:00.863)
Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hey everybody, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, lately we have been given such a gift to hang out with some really cool people who are very passionate in talking about boys issues. I know. It's been great. We've loved it.

Yeah, and and so and so as we we got to talk to Maggie Dent a few weeks ago, right? If you haven't heard that episode, go back and listen to that one. And we also got to talk to the author of The Boy Code, right? And that was a fantastic interview, you know. And I I just think probably because we have a boy who's entering into the teenage years, and so we're like, This is very relevant to us. We're super passionate for that, and we want to be great parents to our son, right? And but also because we think when boys have a healthy understanding of manhood and masculinity.

I think it helps helps the world. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We're needing it. We're learning more and more through these conversations. I think it's enlightening more to me to the kinds of conversations we need to have more of. Yeah. And that we need to shine this light. And so this has been great doing that. Yeah. And so today's another one. Today's another one. We got introduced to another great person from down under. Maggie Dent told us about him and just raved about him. And then we looked up on all his socials and he's killing it over there. His name is Daniel Principe.

And he is speaking about passionate topics with boys all over the world, but specifically killing it in Australia. So Daniel, without further ado, we want to welcome and say thank you for joining us today.

Daniel Principe (01:27.682)
Thank you so much, Sarah and Carl. Lovely to speak with you both. Thank you for the privilege.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:31.985)
And and and Daniel, can can you share with us like what is going on with boys? Just start there. Like what are you mean? I know you're deep into this. So what are you seeing? You know, I know we hear words like manosphere. We hear words like looks maxing. I mean, I I know I just had a talk with a kid the other day in one of my sessions and he was buying into the looks maxing. And so I kind of what are you running into over in Australia and just online?

Daniel Principe (01:37.656)
Sure.

Daniel Principe (01:56.758)
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Great question. Yeah, keeps me on the edge of my seat and the tips of my toes, right? because it's a whole other world. And I think we have to start with that acknowledgement. So I'm a youth advocate, which means I do a lot of talking, professional yapper, but I try to do my best to listen to young people and the noises of the culture that they're in, recognizing that we went through adolescence at a significantly different time. Like my first phone at 15 was a Nokia 3310. You might remember that guy, the brick, the indestructible phone.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:10.418)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:23.974)
Yes, of course. Yes. Yes.

Daniel Principe (02:26.018)
Yeah, and it just limits the amount of carnage you can inflict on yourself and others. On your best and worst day, you can sit there playing snake on the back of a school bus. That's it. Whereas now the noise is unrelenting, mixed messages. It's not all bad, but of course, there is a lot going on in terms of what reaches the hearts and minds of all of our young people, well before perhaps their parents or educators or coaches or faith based groups can like reach them, hopefully with.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:34.333)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (02:53.006)
Positive, constructive, expansive visions of what it is to be a human, right? Where we want them to be courageous, kind, loving, tender, respectful, have principles, you know, like be a safe, trustworthy friend, like all these sorts of things, you know? We want them to grow in that. And it's obviously our job to guide them. But I think for the first time in human history, gosh, we're competing with so many other voices and noises. And so I say that because I think we have to start by having.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:16.988)
Yes, yes.

Daniel Principe (03:22.302)
empathy and care, you know, compassion, sympathy that, hey, young people are navigating a world they didn't create, but they have to navigate it. But also for the parents listening, caregivers listening, like aunties, uncles, grandparents, like, hey, like we're also doing this the first time in a world that it's like, wow, the like the difference from each generation to now this generation is is huge. They're in a very different world. And so hey,

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:29.66)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:47.55)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (03:48.354)
Let's start with some curiosity, which I think like we all need to be more curious because you can't be curious and judgmental. So let's be curious. I always playfully say to the teenage boys, today when we're having these sessions, do you want me to be curious or judgmental? And they're like, no, be curious. I was like, great, let's do that. Let's do that. Let's be curious. Like, so they're in a completely different world and a world that we ourselves are trying to apprehend and make sense of. And so yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:55.72)
Mm. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:02.366)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (04:14.572)
They have multiple voices. They have a lot of people either preying on insecurities, manufacturing insecurities. And for boys, it's around physiques, finances, and acting tough. And the peer pressure and social pressure all around that is what's really, really loud now. Now I run sessions for adult males and I'll say to them, Hey fellas, when you were teenage boys, like were you hyper conscious about making lots of money, being ripped, having the perfect physique?

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:23.836)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (04:41.58)
99% of them say no. Like, yeah, one day I knew I was gonna go to uni or get a trade or start a business, but I wasn't like, you know, really concerned with it. But they they are, and it's full on. And I I think, hey, yeah, I remember my first job at 15 and I was working in like a big supermarket chain here in Australia. And at the time I was earning like $8.32 an hour, which I know sometimes might sound good in certain parts of the US, but

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:54.162)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:11.218)
Yes, yeah.

Daniel Principe (05:11.404)
You know, like that was not much. And, you know, like you took that home and I wasn't then doom scrolling through all these people portraying their lifestyles online. Like I didn't think I was less than. I didn't think I was I was of low value, low worth, never gonna be good enough, never gonna be able to ask a girl out one day on a date because I wasn't, you know, enough. And so

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:16.398)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:22.194)
Yeah. Hmm. It's good. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (05:38.37)
Getting that context around finances, physiques, where again, they're just bombarded endlessly with what they should look like. Whereas again, as a 15-year-old, when could I see like physiques on a men's health magazine when mum was doing the grocery shopping at like the checkout? You know, like it's a different world. I think there's always been, you know, social norms about boys to like, you know, act tough, to fight, to man up, to be kind of stoic. And I'm not gonna throw out

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:56.169)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (06:08.632)
Toughness. But what I say to the boys is, can you define it? Like, because I actually say you should be tough. but define it for me because I say to them, I think your sisters should be tough. And then I say, you know, your grandmothers and great grandmothers, they were tough, tougher than all of us. Let's be real, you know? Like, but what do you what do we mean by tough? Because like they're usually going tough. yeah, I'm gonna ride like e-bikes and vape and get into fights and do stupid things to impress the boys. And I'm like,

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:21.928)
Yes. Yes. They work. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (06:37.09)
Yeah, that's not tough. Like I think toughness, and I either go with modern word, which is like resilience or old school, because I'm a bit old school. Like I like the word fortitude. It's like the ability to go through trials, tribulations, to have your own disappointments, grief, pain, your own failings, make mistakes and like persevere, pick yourself up, keep your values, keep your principles, dust yourself off and keep going. And I wish we could help.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:49.896)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (07:04.514)
Boys at large just reimagine like that as a healthier vision of toughness. whereas so much of it is like pretty much here in Australia. I don't know if you guys have it. It's like, I gotta be nonchalant. I gotta like pretend to be unaffected. Yeah, absolutely. And it's like I say to boys, yeah, there's millions of things I don't care about, but there's probably a half dozen things I am all in on. I fully care.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:08.126)
So good. So good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:17.692)
Yeah. yeah. yeah. I I can act like I don't care about anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (07:32.372)
I am locked in. I need to show the world I care about these things. And I say, like, you need to work out those things as well. So yeah, the whole nonchalant. It's really interesting. One of my mentors, he lives in New York City. I look up to him and he polled hundreds and hundreds of women there and asked them, What do you find is the most unattractive thing in a man? And maybe it's a New York City gal thing, but I reckon this checks out, you know? where the unanimous number one was apathy. Like,

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:53.286)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (08:00.77)
You know, guys that just didn't care. They didn't they had no drive. They didn't care about themselves. They didn't care about their relationships. Yeah. They didn't want to make the world a better place or their world a better place. Their relationships better. That and so for me, it's like whether we talk about apathy nonchalant, it's this like, I don't want to care. I don't want to get on the court. I don't want to take risks, show up in case I make mistakes. And I get that. I'm a recovering people pleaser. I'm a perfectionist. Like, you know, like.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:02.77)
Yes. Yeah. N no no passion. Yeah, n yeah, exactly. Yes. That's good.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:25.758)
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (08:28.258)
Yeah, and then eventually you realize that's living not even a half-life, but like a shell of a life, and you're gonna have to get on the court and make some mistakes along the way. So yeah, that's a bit of the big picture as I'm seeing it, and obviously happy to lean into some of the specifics if we pick up no doubt looks maxing and the rest of it as we go.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:36.658)
But that's yeah, that's so good. Yeah. Yeah.

Sure, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I actually I have a lot of things swirling around my head. One thing that I've really appreciated when I we hadn't we didn't know much about you and so we kinda jumped in and dove in, looked at all this stuff and I loved when I saw you talking to boys. It was some video and you were asking them questions, you know, going back to that curious thing. And I think as a parent, you know, you think about talking to your boys and and it's kinda scary, you know.

To lean into that curiosity, because you get scared, you know, and even the judgment is, no, my son tells me this and and it's gonna be, you know, you start catastrophizing all these things. And so I always kind of like to ask, what would be your tips or what how what would you say to parents if they're like, okay, okay, how do I do this curious thing with my kid? What if they tell me something that really kind of worries me or that I hear that they're

doing this thing to their body or to, you know, or have these thoughts about dating and and things like that. How where do they take that stuff if they can get their kids most of them be like, my kid's not gonna tell me that anyway. But if they did, you know, kind of where do they go from that space? 'Cause you kind of get worried and scared about your son and what what he's what's he into. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (10:06.39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, two ways to to navigate this. So, first of all, there are wonderful parents out there doing their utmost, but we are all comparing, sorry, competing with billion and trillion dollar industries that don't have our children's best interests at heart. And I say this in all of my parent sessions, which is just that your children being exposed to confusing, harmful, inappropriate.

Content online, racist content, violent content, gambling content, sexually explicit content online isn't because you're a bad parent and you got a bad kid. And I know I could say that a million times, but guilt and shame gets in the way, and I get it. But it's like we are competing against billion and trillion dollar industries that got a way bigger head start on us before we realize how wild the West is out there in the digital space. That there hasn't been safety by design, it's been profit by design and children's well-being.

And safety, a absolute afterthought. So that doesn't mean, hey, let's rest on our laurels because hey, it's like a really difficult, fast evolving, moving terrain, but like that's the context. So I'm not saying yes, your children have seen harmful stuff. I'm saying in all likelihood, they probably have. Like if we're talking like 10 year olds and onwards, and if they have access to devices or other people's devices unsupervised, hate to say it, but like they've probably seen some stuff online.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:17.822)
Sure. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (11:28.78)
And I don't know what that is. And there is no good reason to punish them for that because it's not their fault. You know, like first of all, we are the ones that gave them the devices or let them have unsupervised device time, not them. They're just trying to connect with friends or learn out of curiosity. And I have friends who are parents here who have done their utmost raising their teenagers. And Google's not always our friend. They search for things out of curiosity, right?

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:29.064)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:39.26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:51.836)
No, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (11:53.804)
You know, and it's like we can't punish our children for looking up things and trying to make sense of their wills, or they've heard an adult say this, or something on the radio or the TV, or their friend says, go home and look this up, right? So, hey, hey, hey, we have to get to a place where it's like we have to both in our heads but in our hearts be like, I'm not punishing my children for the fact that they're growing up in a volatile world. It's our job to help equip them through that, not punish them. So

I think having that as an unfortunate expectation, like as a starting point to manage that and to kind of deal and regulate with, yeah, in all likelihood, my child may have seen gambling content or racist content or violent content or sexually explicit content, you know? And okay, how are we going to respond to that? Because we're not going to punish them. We're not going to do what one of my friends' moms did, where she got locked in her room for four days as a 12-year-old, you know. And you can imagine the shame that then that, you know.

Kyle and Sara Wester (12:48.018)
Wow. my goodness. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (12:52.714)
She's had to work through well into her adulthood. So let's start with that. And then let's have compassion for young people and parents who, of course, we didn't choose to navigate this terrain, but these are the times we're in. So let's do this well, let's do this wisely, let's regulate ourselves and do that with a sense that, hey, this might actually be what they're having to navigate. Then what I say when it comes to the conversations, and I

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:06.333)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:16.872)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (13:19.618)
Playfully say this to the parents. Like, don't go rattle your kids out of bed and after you leave my talk and be like, Are you watching explicit content online? Cause yeah, because like everybody will start screaming in the house, you know, like, let's not do that. The everybody will be frightened. So I like to always ask, even in my sessions, I never go personal, like it's so full on. It'd be like if I said to you guys, what was your first harmful message you learned about sexuality in life? Like, that's pretty full on.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:25.443)
Wha what are you looking at? Tell me now.

Yes, yes. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:48.7)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (13:49.305)
Whereas like you I ask questions like, hey, what's been, you know, what's tough for young men right now? What's a pressure that all young men are faced with? What's something us adults don't understand about your generation? Why do influencers benefit from trying to make you feel insecure, anxious, not good enough, sexy enough, manly enough, whatever, rich enough? How would you know if someone's trying to help you or manipulate you online? So this is some of the critical media literacy that I start with.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:57.352)
That's good.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:09.853)
That's good.

Daniel Principe (14:16.854)
And then we might pivot and and be like, yeah, like asking, you know, questions like that could then evoke a conversation where a young person says, Yeah, you know, like the guys at school, they think they know everything about sex because, you know, like they saw this stuff online or they've been listening to these voices, you know? so I always start broad, curious what's going on in the world of young people. I ask questions like, what do you think guys and girls misunderstand about each other?

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:17.064)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:45.374)
Mm, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (14:47.234)
You know, like where do you think we maybe yeah. So like I think you gotta work with normal, natural conversations. I just think you need a couple of those questions to act as good springboards, conversation starters, and just see where it goes. And every child's different. Most child, you know, they maybe don't want to like eyeball you over this, but like, yeah, you could just be having this on a walk. You could hear something. I love the media, teachable moments, like and sadly we live in a media hellscape where like there's too many teachable moments. Like

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:16.156)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. gosh. yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (15:16.482)
You know, where you've had Taylor Swift having deep fakes made about her or the Diddy fa like parties and now like Epstein. And I know that all sounds pretty horrific, right? But the kids are all joking about this from late primary school. So, like, you know, we can use it as teachable moments about, hey, what does respect look like? How come somebody would do this? What would you do if, you know, someone was ganging up on someone online or making inappropriate comments or pictures about somebody online? You know, like there's sadly

These are the things happening and helping young people. It's like, how would somebody feel if this was happening to them? So I like to ask those critical thinking questions, but I also like to ask questions that I think are like about building empathy and compassion, which is like, how would it feel if somebody was being ganged up on a group chat? How would it feel if somebody was being judged for how their body looks? What could you do in that situation to help that friend, that body, know that you've got their back?

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:14.982)
Yeah. No, that that is so good. That that is good. Yeah. When I'm just thinking as you're talking, Daniel. So I I the thing I've been surprised is some of these topics that to me as a adult who's 49 years old, I think things like looks maxing seems like, surely people aren't buying into this. Surely this is like and then and then the kids I'm talking to, they're not dumb. Like they're smart kids. And they're they're they're they're smart.

Daniel Principe (16:42.102)
Yeah, totally.

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:44.986)
And they have, you know, they want to be successful in life. But then when I talk to about some of these stuff, they believe it. Like they buy into the looks maxing and think it's important. Like what I was surprised. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yep.

Daniel Principe (16:51.48)
Totally. And let's go there. And let's go there, right? So, like for those that don't know, looks maxing, let's just flip the words, maximizing your looks, right? Now, for girls, they've been bombarded with unrealistic beauty standards forever. And sadly, we've kind of just accepted that a part of teenage girlhood is like you just hate your bodies and hate how you look, which is just so awful. And there's so many industries that profit on making girls feel insecure and not like and love themselves, right?

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:03.901)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:10.034)
Yep. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:17.83)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (17:17.91)
And just seeing their bodies is just whether they're hot or not based on the latest beauty standards, rather than the fact that they can kick a football, they can dance, they can hug a friend, they can go for a run, they can swim, they can, you know, sit and read a book, like that their bodies are for so much more than just how they look as ornaments. But now, of course, you know, people have realized we can exploit boys' insecurities too. And so, of course, a good question for boys is like, hey, when do you reckon looks maxim goes too far? Because on the surface, right?

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:33.17)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:39.804)
Yes, I know.

Daniel Principe (17:47.501)
We got no issues with boys getting a good haircut. Now we can debate what a good haircut is, but you know, like, you know, you know, like having a shower, hygiene, having a shave, like dressing well, like exercising, like, you know, like eating well. Like I've got no issues with that. But as I said to the boys, hey, fellas, would you know if it got too far for you or mate? Like, when would you know if this was like became a bit obsessive?

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:51.636)
That's right. Yes. Yep.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (18:11.958)
And as I hear from so many boys in Australia all the time, yeah, I'm exercising more than ever before, but my mental health's getting worse. Okay, well, that's a pretty big a big sign, hey, that this is not just about the physical now, is it? So it's trying to get them to think through again, asking them those critical questions, but human questions about, hey, when would this be going too far? How would you know you or somebody had a problem, right? Because yeah, we got boys obsessing here in Australia. Well, the stats that I've seen.

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:19.516)
Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Daniel Principe (18:42.24)
a colleague of mine, he said 14% of boys in his research in Australia obsess daily about a body image issue. So, like it's it's significant. And so again, I don't think we can come out and say, hey, boys, don't go train, don't go exercise, as if it's so good for them. I want them in their own ways, meaningfully, whether it's dancing, swimming, running, lifting, kicking a footy, I don't care. Go and do meaningful things with your bodies, right?

and and so, but it's like, how do we help navigate it? And how do we also affirm other things? And this is the big part, right? Because again, there is so much more to you than your body. So, like, are we affirming your artistic expression? Are we affirming your academics? Are we affirming your athletic pursuits? Are we affirming your character formation, your faith, your spirituality, your poetry, like whatever it is?

There is so much more to how you show up as a brother, as a son, as a grandson, as a neighbor. Like there are so many other things I want to affirm you for than just what your body looks like. Because the internet is so noisy about that for all of our young people. So I think us as adults, can we pump up our kids' tires for more than just how they look, right? Like genuinely, we have to because they are just being told that.

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:44.434)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:58.495)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (20:03.042)
Your status, your money, your physique is the most important thing about you, not your character. Whereas in my work and in my world, character is the most important thing about any person. That's why, whilst I'm running my mouth all day, all I'm doing is scanning rooms for character. I'm just like, where can I see good character so I can affirm it and celebrate that and get the boys themselves to get around that and affirm that. So I think, yeah, let's like.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:13.02)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:20.424)
Mm.

Daniel Principe (20:31.17)
Be aware of looks maxing, but we want our boys to use their bodies just like we want our girls to. But we want to affirm all of them for their character and things that are much more than just how their bodies look, what they're wearing, these sorts of things.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:44.21)
Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. It's yeah, this weird feeling of just like, wow, welcome boys to the girls' world. You know, and and on yeah, yeah, it it is where you know, you've for so long that's been the girls' story of you know everything's you walk into a store and it's just full of all the ways to fix you. Let's fix your smell, your hair, your you have too much hair, not enough hair, this hair, that you know, everything about you needs to be

Daniel Principe (20:53.294)
Totally tragic.

Kyle and Sara Wester (21:12.67)
carved out and changed and and how and then you know I'm just like, so sad that we're now welcoming boys into that same just let's rip you down and then we're gonna reconstruct you to hope, you know, make you into something that we've deemed good enough. And but so I love what you're saying because I think, man, I I need to include my son in more of those conversations. You know, because that pressure is so real. I actually I wanna it's kind of

Daniel Principe (21:28.515)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (21:41.545)
connected to that, but it's something we have not talked about ever on our podcast. And I think it's such a big thing. And I want to talk, I know I know this is something you do talk about, but I want to talk about I want to hear about pornography and work. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just gonna leave that one open for you. Just take where you want to go because it's obviously such a big topic. It could be its own show. So yeah. So let's just let's just hit upon it though because I know that's a really big thing.

Daniel Principe (21:46.253)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel Principe (21:54.374)
gosh, yeah, we could do that.

Daniel Principe (22:01.23)
Що

Daniel Principe (22:05.062)
absolutely.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:11.766)
yeah. Well, it's also such a big thing, even with the kids I'm helping or the parents I'm coaching, Daniel, where they're how do I approach this? Like what what what is what is okay and not okay? I'm catching my son masturbating. Well, you know, we're looking at what do I do about that? Right. Those kind of things pop up. And they don't lots of times they don't even know what to do in their own marriages about it, or those kind of things. So it becomes a very confusing thing. How do I talk about it with my like especially a lot of the moms want their boys to grow up?

Daniel Principe (22:19.448)
Totally.

Daniel Principe (22:27.299)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (22:33.302)
it's huge. It's huge.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:39.184)
in the and in a healthy way and they know that's not gonna be it, but they don't know how to talk about it. So yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on

Daniel Principe (22:42.733)
Yeah.

Sure. And I would say where it's hard to give exact prescriptive advice, because this is what I say in all our parenting sessions, is it's like, what's your anchor point, right? I know my anchor point. I know my values. I know my principles, not just of what I don't want, but of course, what do I want and why? Like, because I know this can be a weird thing to say, but like obviously there's a likelihood our children will grow up, pursue romantic relationships, be sexually engaged one day. And I know that that's such a like, ugh, but like.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:13.342)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (23:15.298)
There's a sense of, well, what kind of partner do we want them to be? What kind of partner do we want them to pursue? What kind of relationship do we want them to create? What skills and values do we want them to possess so that they can bond in healthy ways and create healthy relationships and perhaps a healthy family one day? So what ideas do we they need to have about conflict, about love, about intimacy, about sex, about consent, about, you know, you know, honesty, you know, all these sorts of things.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:43.368)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (23:44.717)
And it's not purely just like our job because some of that like you got to take responsibility for once you're an adult pursuing adult relationships, right? But we should certainly be thinking about like how do we, you know, raise you and nurture you along that journey of thinking about this. And of course, the question is, folks, and I ask it about my own life, was me learning about romance, sex, intimacy, consent from pornography, was that a good thing or not?

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:51.902)
Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (24:11.138)
And this is the the question I ask all my audiences is I was exposed to pornography as an eleven year old boy. And what did it teach me? What did it teach me about men, women, pleasure, sex, consent, love, intimacy, commitment? What did it teach me? Bodies, you know, and are we happy with that? Are we okay with that? And obviously I'm not. I think it's horrific that most young people, pornography, they see a couple of years before their first kiss, let alone their first sexual experience. So

Every year the average age of exposure slightly gets younger and younger because it's ubiquitous. You know, we're talking about an industry that some people estimate at 97 billion dollars makes up a significant proportion of online content. And sadly, as I alluded to earlier, it's not a matter of if, but kind of when for most children, you know, 95% plus of, you know, pre-18s have seen pornography, right? at least 50% by the time they're 13 have seen pornography. Like that's the sad.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:42.621)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:50.268)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:01.458)
Yeah. Yep.

Daniel Principe (25:07.382)
Facts of it, right? So we have to preempt those conversations. I think we have to get in there early. We don't even have to use the P word, to be honest. When I work in primary schools, I don't waltz in there and say, hey kids, are you watching pornography? I literally ask them two, yeah, I know you're relieved to hear that, right? But however, however, I asked them two simple questions. Why would a trusted adult want to keep you safe online? And that's after I ask them, what do you enjoy doing online? Two simple questions.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:07.9)
Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:16.338)
Yeah. Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:20.851)
Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:35.294)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (25:36.331)
And I listen, I listen for the information, the language, what parents might have said, so I can compliment that. And if the P word doesn't come up, they'll at least talk about things not suitable for children or inappropriate content or adult things. And it's like, we know what they mean. We know what they're alluding to, right? And so that's the world that they are in. It's not their fault. And we owe it to them to have these conversations with them. And so

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:48.156)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (26:02.636)
Yeah, I think we owe it to them to talk through the fact that they are growing up in a world where there are things online not suitable for children, I would argue not suitable for adults too, that, you know, are gonna present pictures of people either not wearing clothes or engaged in sexual activity. Now, depending on the age of your child, you gotta to say that, but with what language, you know, whatever's comfortable. Now, I would say what I've just said is probably for late primary school.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:12.316)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:30.898)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (26:31.008)
And then I would say, you know, when we're getting to mid teen years, I think we're going to talk about like, hey, this is an industry built off the back of exploitation, human trafficking. This is destroying individuals, mental health relationships, marriages. So many of the people involved in this industry end up killing themselves, drug overdoses, you know, like this is this is serious. Like you need to hear this, right? And that was for me like why I quit was because I was like, I don't want to be a patron of this industry.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:49.896)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:58.578)
I know. Yes. Contribute to that crap. Yeah. Yes.

Daniel Principe (27:00.31)
And I didn't like what it was doing to how I saw women and how I saw sex, which I have a significant view of sex, right? And I would say like there's four views. And I like my C's. I use a lot of alliteration in my work. So, like, and I wanted to use the word conquest. And as I say to parents, I'm imagining you don't see sex as conquest. That's one of the C's. And I say, and if you do, could you stick around in the car park afterwards so we can have a conversation?

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:07.57)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:12.37)
Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:24.67)
Yes.

Daniel Principe (27:28.566)
And it's like, okay, so is it conquest? Well, is it casual? Do we see sex as casual? Is it commitment? And and for for some people, it's covenant. You know, that's the other C. And it's like, well, which one is it? And I'm not here to tell you what you should believe in your family. I'm saying you need to work that out. And then you need to articulate that to your children and why. And not just here's the rules. Talk about brain science. And I come from a health background. So I talk about oxytocin. I talk about dopamine.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:33.576)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:37.97)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:49.18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (27:55.629)
So obviously pornography spikes dopamine, right? The anticipation of this reward, it's a supernormal stimulus. And I affirm the fact that it is normal and natural to be curious about sex, bodies, have attractions, be aroused. That's all normal. That's all natural. Happens in different ways and stages. And it releases dopamine. And of course, when it comes to relationships and bonding and not just sexual relationships and sexual bonding, our bodies release oxytocin.

When we talk about catching feels or love goggles, that's because we've got oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine and endorphins flooding our system. And so when parents talk, yeah, bring your values, bring your morals to the table, but use science, use principles to illuminate that, not just, hey, don't have sex or wait for marriage. Hey, if that's what you believe, believe it, teach it, but bring the brain science in, bring like principles as to why.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:27.73)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:39.944)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (28:50.294)
Or why, as I say to young people, I think you shouldn't jump into bed with someone really, really quickly. Now, I have friends who would describe themselves as sex positive, who are part of really, you know, pro sex progressive circles. And they've said to me, Dan, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we now tell our like adult listeners, like, hey, if you're looking for a serious relationship, not just a casual hookup, you should call it because it takes you time to get to know somebody.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:02.418)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:17.16)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (29:17.206)
And if you're gonna jump into bed, like it's just gonna cloud judgment, you're gonna bring even more feels in. And if you're actually looking, like, hey, if you're looking for a hookup, like hey, you do you, don't recommend it. The sites tell us it's not great sex, anyways. But if you're looking for a healthy relationship, like you should probably cool it. And these are the conversations with young people, not because it's bad, not because it's wrong. It's like these are the things that make it hard to determine. Like, how do you know if somebody's trustworthy?

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:32.23)
Yes. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:46.845)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (29:46.957)
And before that, I've already had chats with all the young people about how do you actually get to know somebody? How do you know if someone's truly a friend, let alone a romantic partner, let alone someone that you're going to do life with, right? So I think these are all the building blocks that I think shape relationships so that we're not just there going, hey, don't watch porn. Our message is not just don't watch porn, don't have sex. It's like, well, what is the vision that we want for you?

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:57.887)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:07.774)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Daniel Principe (30:14.018)
What kind of experience, ideas, attitudes of dating, of your body, of other people's bodies, of commitment, of character do we want so that you can discern well in the right time? Right. That's the vision that we have. So we can't just be like, no, no, no, no. It's like, yeah, well, what are we building into them? Like, how would we like them to be able to discern who is a healthy friend, let alone romantic partner one day? So that's where I

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:27.144)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (30:42.314)
Always come back to because I could wax lyrical about pornography and give data, but all it means is the parents listening are going to go into a state of fight or flight mode and get overwhelmed. And I want to come back to we got to stay connected. These are ongoing lots of conversations, not one big birds and the bees sex talk where you're waiting for the perfect spring summer's evening where the house is, you know, at peace and everybody's well fed, and you're gonna like.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:51.154)
That's right, yes. Exactly. So true.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:07.934)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (31:11.776)
Now's the moment. It's like, no, no, no, no. These are lots of teachable moments that we have over time. And it could, as I said, use the media to make it relevant. You could, you know, talk about your own experiences. And I think, hey, parents, like, I think we have to have some skin in the game here. We can't just be like, because even okay, even if you've never looked at pornography, I love that. And more power to you.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:13.254)
Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (31:38.189)
We've all had our visions of sexuality, romance, dating shaped by Hollywood, shaped by music videos, shaped by our parents, better or worse. And it's like, well, what are the things that we've learned that we've hung on to? But what are the things that we're like, no, actually? Like Hollywood taught me that, like, hey, when you go and date somebody and you get into bed with them, that everything just works perfectly and you just know and it's fun for everybody. And it's like, actually.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:44.702)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:01.116)
Yep. yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (32:05.91)
I had to learn that the discovery of intimacy and pleasure and being safe and being known is an ongoing thing. And most of the skills aren't mechanics, it's connection and human skills and like listening and curiosity. Like, so these are the conversations that I think actually matter because hopefully the parents, like you and I, we're all a work in progress. We're all reflecting on our humanity, our values.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:12.957)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:16.434)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Good. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (32:33.986)
Our relationships, our marriage, our parenting. And it's like, yeah, well, what are the things we've had to unlearn about sex that maybe we picked up? Maybe it was that sex is this big, awful, sinful thing, and we should save it for the person we married, marry and love most. And you're like, okay, well, what was that like? And and how did that have to get unpicked into framing it as something that you maybe saw as beautiful and sacred and good that you create with somebody and a mystery over time? So

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:47.73)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (33:02.784)
I hope this is helpful. I'm rambling a bit. yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:02.834)
Yeah. it's super helpful. No, no, you're doing great. No, and and I I wanna thank you for helping us, like Sarah said, topics we've never approached on the the the podcast before. If you could, you know, the thing that I think people resonate the most with you, Daniel, when you're talking, especially these boys, these teenage boys and also the adult men, is you do have a very positive outlook of of of men and and why they're so important, right? And and I I think I think

There is a time that Sarah and I are feeling as well that we need to have voices speaking and inspiring these boys into the men they could become. And so if you could just take a moment and like your thoughts about the importance of that, about these boys knowing their worth and knowing their value. Cause I think when they know that, then these other things just aren't as enticing. You know, it's very much, yeah, they're they're trying to like become something they think they already aren't.

Daniel Principe (33:55.349)
I agree.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:00.378)
And and I I know your your voice, your message consistently is like you don't need that 'cause you already are. But I'd love to hear you kind of voice w what what's your perspective of the culture? Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (34:00.621)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Principe (34:08.374)
Yeah. Well, I could give you data. There's a great US sexologist that talks about the fact that, you know, when men lack meaning and purpose, they're seven times more likely to be porn addicts, right? And unsurprisingly, we live in an age that lacks meaning, and that's a whole philosophical conversation for another day. But, you know, when we see we talk about lost boys, now whether people agree with that, see that. Now I see so many remarkable boys, but yeah, I'll be honest, I see lots of lost boys who sadly don't have great home lives, who haven't had positive role models, who

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:17.862)
Yeah yeah. Mm-hmm.

Daniel Principe (34:37.346)
Don't know what they should pursue. So it's left to the pack, other uninitiated boys, the internet to guide them. Hence, we've seen a rise in all these voices. Some are great, some are horrific online trying to guide boys, right? And how do we even know? And I say to boys, how would you know which ones to follow? Which voices are true and good, which voices are trustworthy, right? You know, and so we owe it to boys to raise them. And I just love that your podcast, The Art of Raising Humans.

Because it I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that it's our job to raise them. They don't raise themselves, right? We gotta challenge them, encourage them, nurture them, give them these opportunities to step into who we know they can be. And so my vision, and you might have seen it on my website, and I use it in my sessions, all of them is boys will be. And we fill in the blanks with all sorts of, you know, words. And it's our job to give them that vision. But as you know, you can have a vision. Like

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:11.603)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:28.734)
Yeah.

Daniel Principe (35:34.455)
In my early 20s, I started to see some good men around me. And I started to see some positive men and female role models that I looked up to and I was like, wow, and there's a healthy relationship. And I was like, my gosh, I've I've seen it. But then I realized, okay, now that I'd started to see it, I didn't have the skills to build it. So it's like we got to give them the vision. And I think a lot of it is caught rather than talk, right? Like you can talk till the cows come home, but they got to see it in other people and find that attractive.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:50.534)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:56.412)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Principe (36:02.572)
And then it's our job to help them like actually build those skills they need personally, professionally, romantically to show up well in life. And yeah, they just they they they just gotta be those willing recipients of that. And so yeah, I do this work because I have a high view of boys, and I realize that if their strengths and talents and time and resourcing isn't channeled for good, they just have capacity to hurt themselves and hurt others. And that's just a fact. We can't deny the evidence.

And that things get pretty ugly in in small pockets of the male world where I think, yeah, this can lead to so much carnage. Is actually why I started doing this work because I saw the hurt that could come to men and to the women and girls in men's lives when men weren't healthy. And there's lots of reasons behind that, but we actually have to do our utmost to help guide boys. We owe it to them. And could I say, like, we owe it to not just

Our own sons, we owe it to other people's sons as teachers, grandparents, as coaches, as pastors, as whoever it is. It's like it does take a village. I know it's cliche, but it's like we need that. And like that's why like one of my challenges that I always put out to parents is like, yeah, go and affirm the gold in your sons because they hear so much trash talk and put downs and shaming, right?

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:00.85)
Yes. Yes. yeah. yeah. yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Daniel Principe (37:24.596)
And they tell me roughly that there's like 200 bits of shame, trash talk for every positive bit of affirmation they receive. Right. And one of the biggest honors in my life is when parents come and seek me out because they're like, my son came home, like smiling ear to ear, because you just called out the good in him. And like he just felt that. And then the parents come and find me. And like, I feel like that's my.

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:31.068)
Yes, yes, I'm clear. Yes.

Daniel Principe (37:51.321)
greatest privileges to do that, but then everyone can do that. We should pump up other people's children too. We want them to feel good. I'm not talking about fake flattery. I'm not talking about fluffy, meaningless, but when you see good things and good character, like affirm that. Celebrate it. Cause yeah, what we celebrate, we we're gonna see more of. Because I talk about culture. Like I love a Latin motto and plaque as much as the next person. But

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:54.994)
Yeah, yeah.

Yep. of course. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, yes. Yeah. Yep.

Daniel Principe (38:20.522)
Our culture's not just like a great mission statement or Latin motto. It's like, what do we celebrate? What do we tolerate? Who are our heroes? Right? What stories do we tell? And I think we owe it to boys and young people to tell stories, to show them where they belong, what they're part of, you know? And that they get to contribute as part of their belonging to something much bigger than themselves. So yeah, that's a that's a big part of it all. We can't achieve that in one day.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:27.496)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:41.852)
Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. Yeah. No. Well, we and you know, Daniel and one, I hope every mom and dad listening to that, what Daniel just said, is inspired. Is inspired to understand that your presence is important, your words matter, and how you're modeling to the kids around you is very important. Yeah. I I remember when my son was born,

Daniel Principe (38:46.53)
You know, or even one year, like it's we're playing the long game here.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:07.768)
I I think with my when my my oldest, my daughter was born, I felt like somewhat I was a good role model to her about you know somebody she may marry someday. Right. And I thought I I felt comfortable in that. But when my son was born, I remember just holding him and thinking, he's gonna look to me as to what a healthy man is. And I thought, I'm really worried about that. I need to get my crap together. And so I I I I I always tell my son, like he inspired me to be much more intentional.

Daniel Principe (39:31.532)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:36.828)
much more thoughtful and he has made me a better man because he's around me, right? And so so I I hope everybody listening has been inspired by your words. And if they want to know more about the work you're doing, Daniel, how can they connect

Daniel Principe (39:42.306)
Mm.

Daniel Principe (39:50.86)
just through my website Danielprinchaper dot com dot AU.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:54.736)
Okay. And then you're also on Instagram too. Can they find you there as well? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Daniel Principe (39:57.91)
Yeah, they can just put put my name into Instagram. Yeah, and and find me and connect. I don't do much on there, but if they want to, they can. Yeah. Mm yeah. Mostly we just want to post about sunsets and cooking food. But yeah. And 'cause social media is pretty toxic, so you wanna just share the good stuff. But yeah, they can find me there. There's some resources on there, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (40:04.158)
Okay. Great. Okay.

Nice. Yes. Well, well, well, Daniel. Yeah. Well, Daniel, we are so thankful that you came on with us to talk about these. Like I said, we were once we saw, we're yes, he'll give us a chance to drink us up because Yeah, we were so excited. Yes, yeah, because we we we just like so many boys, like I'm saying, that I'm seeing, they want to have conversations about this stuff. And when they can do it with me.

in private, it's very freeing. But then when I get to like turn them back to their parents to have those it's so freeing. So I want to encourage every parent who's listening to really dive into this, be encouraged that that that the kids want to discuss this. It may be hard at first, but if you do what what Daniel's saying and move in with curiosity and not judgment, that they are hungry to have those conversations. So so the thank you for being with us today, even though you're way down in Australia and you know I look forward to our audience getting to meet you as well. Okay. Have a good day.

Daniel Principe (41:04.813)
Awesome. Thank you guys.