Episode 217

Kyle Wester (00:00.846)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hey everyone, I'm Sarah. And you know, we we thought Sarah that this man that we're dropping this episode the day after Father's Day. Yeah, we're real excited. And I know we're thinking, who could we get to talk about dads, right?

Yep. And then all of a sudden Tina Bryson, a fabulous friend of the podcast, connected us to Maggie Dent, this amazing woman down under. And she had a podcast that I stumbled across called the Good Enough Dad Podcast. Yeah. And it had so much great dad advice. But then I'm thinking, how does Maggie Dent know all this stuff? So without further ado, I want to welcome Maggie. Welcome to the podcast.

Maggie Dent (00:42.166)
Thanks guys for having me. I am super excited. Isn't it wonderful we can do this all over the waters?

Kyle Wester (00:47.936)
Yes, it's great. Yeah. Well what how how did you get so skilled and so passionate at helping fathers?

Maggie Dent (00:54.754)
I'll try and do it in a real nutshell. So I'm born and bred on a farm in the Wheat Belt in Western Australia. I'm the fifth of six and my mum was a fairly difficult mum. So I hung out with my dad my entire childhood just tagged along behind him. And obviously a farming dad is around a lot more. So I spent hours and hours and hours with my dad. And so I think I marinated all sorts of things. But when I worked out, it took a long time to realize that this is the 1950s. That's how old I am.

My safe, secure attachment person was my dad. He's the only one who came when I had a nightmare or I wet the bed or I went sleepwalking, which I did. And so isn't it beautiful that I learnt, right, as a little tiny girl, right the way through my teen years, dad was my safe base. And I think that shaped me a little. So I became a high school teacher, which I absolutely loved. Then realised the troubled kids kept coming to me and not the counsellor. So I became a counsellor.

Kyle Wester (01:53.174)
Mm.

Maggie Dent (01:53.304)
and did that full time for four or five years. And again, it was that beautiful journey that suddenly not just troubled kids were coming through the door, dads were coming through the door. And so I was able to really listen to the things that really worried them. And then there was also a time when I was doing some suicide prevention work and it was just men in sheds. And then it just gradually evolved over the years. I mean, I do a lot of work. And I mean, when I first ran seminars,

were no dads at all in the room. Now I can have up to 40 % of dads coming willingly and then I get stopped by nearly as many dads in the street for a hug and a selfie now as I do mums and so I feel like I've taken my dad's kind of compassionate fathering you know example out into the world and it's a beautiful time because we know dads are.

Kyle Wester (02:24.684)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (02:36.63)
Yes.

Maggie Dent (02:51.35)
wanting to turn up with big beautiful hearts. They're wanting to be the dad they wanted. And so, you know, other than the fact that I'm known as a boy champion, I think we just slash they grow up and then I can be a dad champion as well.

Kyle Wester (02:52.674)
Yes, yes, yeah. Yep.

Kyle Wester (03:03.598)
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I was wondering as you're talking, I was sitting there thinking, I think it really sounds like you had a neat dad and and I think a lot of people didn't experience their dads as someone they could go and talk to that said, I love you, that gave hugs, that showed up in that way. A lot of dads, in my even my growing up is like dad n was supposed to be the heavy at home. He was the tough one, he was the

So I see dads kind of changing. And I think some are asking, okay, if I didn't see that example, if I didn't grow up with that dad, and I've got this ingrained in me to be this other kind, how do how do they make that shift? Or what what would you say to a dad who's saying, I kind of want to show up different than than how I was raised? Yeah.

Maggie Dent (03:56.071)
that's so common. Even though my dad never actually told me he loved me, I think I worked it out because there were times he would be just giving me his 100 % attention while I told a very long story. So sometimes feeling loved is presence, genuine presence, which is really difficult in a digital world. Now I have this so much and it's so interesting because when I was running the programs for Dad's Early,

Kyle Wester (03:59.724)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (04:10.126)
Mm, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (04:22.84)
The same group of dads would turn up to the same seminar 12 months later. And I'm going, what are you doing here, mate? You were here last year. And they say, look, I've got three really good ideas, so I've come back for three more. And there's this pragmatism, and I'm sure Kyle recognises this. It's not, I don't want to know all the signs. Just tell me what I can do to be a better dad. And I'm to go home and try that. Right? And so I feel,

Kyle Wester (04:29.538)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (04:49.426)
one of the things is where do they get that? Now there are some dads who do read my parenting books. Some only read the highlighted sections and I keep on saying to them, you know, if she tags you when on a post, read it, right? You know, she's just those little glimmers are sometimes away. But there's another thing that's come up from this really, really touched me at a, it was a dad seminar and it was a tradie in a high vis suit.

Kyle Wester (04:57.396)
Yes.

Maggie Dent (05:18.818)
I suppose you have them over there. And he comes straight from work and he came up to me and he, he did drop a lot of F bombs, but I'm not going to add those. And he just said to me, my dad was an absolute asshole. He was cruel. He was mean, he shamed. And I don't want to be like that. I love my missus. I love my kids. You know, and I try really hard and every now and my dad came out my mouth and said, I found out you have short videos on YouTube. So for Smoko, which is their morning tea break,

Kyle Wester (05:20.408)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (05:27.758)
Yes.

Maggie Dent (05:47.961)
I plug into that and I watch it and I watch them sometimes over and over. then, he starts Adam's apple tears in his face. says, and guess what now happens? Your voice comes out my mouth sometimes and not my dad's. And I just want to say thanks. Cause that's what I was hoping. I wanted to get him out of my head. And I think it's, have to recognize that is deeply imprinted in all of us. Right.

Kyle Wester (06:02.092)
Hmm. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (06:08.76)
Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (06:16.366)
deeply imprinted. And so you just can't, yes, I'm just going to be a different dad or a different mom, because it can be really challenging. What I'm also found in Australia, we've got this wonderful project called the Fatherhood Project, where dads are gathering in schools and they're going for, you know, doing things together where they talk together about the ways that they're gradually taming that voice within them.

Kyle Wester (06:24.269)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (06:42.988)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (06:43.256)
So I think there's, you know, there is a few different ways going forward, but I definitely are hearing a lot more dads who listen to podcasts, you know, as they work. And that's really where the Good Enough Dad podcast is kind of like, we've had lots of feedback, but there are some other really good ones where they promote positive fatherhood and in a light way, because we know that laughter is a kind of way that makes it, no one likes being told what to do.

Kyle Wester (06:51.062)
Yes, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (07:12.058)
and also the power of stories. So I think anywhere that men gather together without judgment and share stories on their wins and their challenges, then we're gradually shifting something that has been deeply, deeply embedded in so many days.

Kyle Wester (07:29.282)
I'm curious, Maggie, what what's some of the barriers you have found to men making this shift? Because I know early on, Sarah and I are both counselors. Sarah had been helping kids who'd been sexually and physically abused. Sarah was saying, hey, when we have kids, we are not spanking, we are not doing timeouts. And I was like, sure we won't. Let's wait and see. And it just seemed like my mind, every time I would read books about it,

Or even see teachers, I was a school counselor at the time, see teachers doing a great job with kids, it still felt so feminine. You know, it didn't seem very masculine. I almost felt like I was trying to be Sarah or trying to be Dr. Markham or trying to be Tina Payne Bryson. I was like, I was trying to be a some kind of woman, and I didn't know how to be this calming, strong, gentle presence with my kids.

without feeling like I had to talk like a woman rather than talk like a man. So I don't know do do do you run into that as a barrier at all and yeah.

Maggie Dent (08:24.014)
Yeah, absolutely. And then, so this is that space again, why I've became, you know, this kind of global boy champion, because I needed to deconstruct some of the social norms that are incorrect, that build men into thinking there's only one way to be a man or a father. And so one of the first ones is that boys are not tough.

Kyle Wester (08:43.842)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (08:49.366)
In actual fact, there's a fragility, especially around young boys. And we now know that the boys who are treated most harshly in the first five years are the ones that will struggle more later with their own mental health and finding a pathway into being loving, caring men. We still struggle with the messaging out there from the patriarchy, which says men are meant to be the provider, they're meant to be the protector, and they're meant to be the disciplinary, and they're meant to be the person with power.

Kyle Wester (09:16.674)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (09:16.942)
So you're absolutely right. So when you've had that condition deeply into you, it's really hard to become part of team parent. So team parent is where we're gonna come alongside and together we're gonna work. How do we do this? You know, without the sense that, you know, behaviorism is so deeply embedded into our, you know, Western world that the only way to raise good kids is to punish them when they do what you don't want.

Kyle Wester (09:24.482)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (09:46.137)
right, and reward them when they do what you want. But what we know, especially for our boys, is their impulsivity means they do make a lot more poor choices. Gosh, I've got a lot of examples of that. With no intention to cause harm to themselves, anyone else or the environment around them. And so from very early, and this is what I had to change with mums, your boys will have this enormous energy that's going to drive your burko.

Kyle Wester (09:46.892)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (09:55.756)
Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (10:14.252)
and they will do things without thinking, where your daughter will think it through and then go, no, not a good choice. And you just, so I think we've got to look at how do we build a healthy self-worth within the boys earlier on so they can hold that self-worth as men going later. And again, just know that they are going to find it difficult to undo whatever their father particularly modeled for them. But what I have also learned in

Kyle Wester (10:28.11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (10:42.828)
not only from boys to in the book Boys to Men when I asked men for their feedback on who helped them become the man that they're proud to be today. Many of them did say obviously they were good men, but I was looking at the good women. So the female teachers who respected me and helped me when I was feeling confused and fragile, who did it with a warmth, without judgment, without putting me down, without the shame, because there's so much shaming.

Kyle Wester (10:57.15)
Mm.

Kyle Wester (11:01.26)
Yeah, wow. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (11:12.078)
that's still happening that shapes the way as men go forward. that, you know, one of the things that comes up so often in the Good Enough Dad podcast was how much they want to beat themselves up when they didn't get something right, that they thought they'd got right and then they mucked up again. Now we all do it, mums do it too, but for dads, boys and men tend to give themselves self-worth when they do good. So when they don't,

Kyle Wester (11:12.27)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (11:39.771)
It's really a very deep shaming cycle. That coffin comes out then as withdrawal, as anger, as aggression, as extended physicality. So again, when we learn to understand there is a fragility in our dads, they want to get it right. when they, sometimes we need to teach them how to tag out so that if you, whoever you're co-parent with can hear your voice raising, we can go in and rub them on the back and say, hey mate, tag out.

Kyle Wester (12:01.336)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (12:08.206)
Yes.

Maggie Dent (12:09.815)
I've got this and they can go and cool down. No shame, no judgment, no whatever, because it's really hard to stay perfectly grout as you both know.

Kyle Wester (12:19.382)
Yes. yeah. Yes. Yeah. No, that tagging thing is something we've used both ways. And and I I think sometimes it is hard to let yourself be tagged out if you're really engaged and hot in the moment, you know, to be like, Okay, I'm gonna you know, he's like, No, I just got five more things to say and then and then I'll leave. But

Maggie Dent (12:36.558)
Yes!

Kyle Wester (12:38.924)
Well well and and there would be even times where I probably should have tagged out. I would come back in the living room after raising my voice at the kids and Sarah would just look at me and say, You know, this isn't what we teach parents to do, right? And I'd say, I know that. But this is happening right now. And you we'll talk later about it how to do this better.

Maggie Dent (12:57.086)
and I think one of my messages all the time is no one's nailing parenting. We never have. And that, you know, this whole pressure on parents to get it right, get it perfect, Instagram hasn't helped. And my challenge is once again, we've just got to get it right around 30 % of the time. But also the big shift I feel is when we have a rupture.

Kyle Wester (13:02.476)
Yes. Yep. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (13:21.73)
Yes. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (13:22.232)
we come back and repair the rupture and that's what maintains that relationship. And I feel the dads that have latched onto that have found it like a lifeline. Yeah, isn't it? You I'm going to calm myself down. going to, man, that's not the dad I want to be right now. And sometimes your kids will look at you and go, yeah, I know dad. It's all right, dad. They let you off the hook, but if you don't repair the rupture, then they hold onto that and then you hold onto that. And that's...

Kyle Wester (13:30.252)
Yes, you're right. Me too, yep, definitely. Yes.

Kyle Wester (13:42.559)
Yes, yes, yes.

Kyle Wester (13:49.548)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what what would you say to dads if they're thinking, Okay, what give me a couple things to really focus on with my son? What does my son need from me? What what would you 'cause I you had said, Well, especially trying to change the legacy. If I'm wanting to change that, is that I'm just thinking you were you were talking about, you know

Maggie Dent (13:51.64)
That's not good going forward.

Maggie Dent (14:05.028)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (14:13.56)
Boys as they grow up, what really shapes them and things and the the dad's role in that. And dads are trying so hard. They really do want to do a, you know, a wonderful job with their son, right? And so I find there's like a can I anchor to something? What what can I grab onto as as I'm not gonna get it right, but where can I focus? Is there a couple of things that are really important? Yeah, it's good.

Maggie Dent (14:34.138)
Yeah. I think the first thing is it's so much easier to connect with your son before puberty hits. Right? And lots of dads tell me, I know I'm being really hard on my teenage son, but I know I'll say, you know how important connection is. And they go in presence and they go, yeah, yeah. And I said, so what do you think's behind that? And they say, cause I don't want him to make the mistakes I made. Which is, it's like a noble.

Kyle Wester (14:59.148)
Yes, yes.

Maggie Dent (15:03.576)
However, that's not what our boys need. So one of the things that I suggested, it might sound like a really bit weird, and we know that the way we communicate with our boys, you know, it has to be quite different. And there's a whole list of things in my boys' book where you know about, you've got to check with timing, are they hungry? Is it just as they woke up? Have they got a phone in their hand? Have they just done some homework? You've got to pick a kind of time.

And then you've got to build a rapport and a connection before you launch into something. And we also know boys don't tend to want to have long conversations. They like kind of prefer the kind of shorter ones that we build on, but they also don't like eye to eye. know, that's why the car seat one, you know, in the back seat, that's when we start the conversation on porn is when they're in the back seat on a freeway at 110 K an hour.

Kyle Wester (15:44.874)
Mm, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Kyle Wester (15:58.999)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (15:59.427)
And we just drop a little bit of a message. And so we'll come back and visit this another time while they're frozen in the back, you know, like, okay. So one of the key messages I've done for dads is I want you to write a short note to your son. You can write it to your daughter as well, but dads find it easier to tell girls they love them and write a note to your son and just tell him you love him. So one of the things that happened was I did this at a seminar once and a dad came to the

Kyle Wester (16:05.455)
Yes.

Maggie Dent (16:28.442)
seminar a few nights later to talk to me and I thought, whoa, maybe I've mucked up. And he said, you know, while I was listening to you, I chose to work from home as an architect so I could be closer to my son because I never saw my dad. But as I was listening to you, I thought, no, I'm still being a grumpy ass dad. So he went home and he wrote on his son's mirror, I'm really proud to be your dad, love dad. And about 10 minutes later, his son came, 14 year old son came into the bedroom sobbing.

Kyle Wester (16:33.226)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (16:58.126)
saying, didn't think you liked me. He said, Maggie, what happened the next, I used to walk him to school, but I walked him like a Sergeant Major. After that note, everything was different. And the third day, he'd forgotten his maths assignment. And he said, Dad, I've forgotten my maths assignment. And he said, I leant down and I said, do want me to go get it or write a note? And he said, usually you just yell at me, Dad. So he said, what happens now is every afternoon,

Kyle Wester (17:05.771)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (17:26.816)
the door bangs open and my son yells out, where's my dad? And we have afternoon tea together and it was one note on a mirror. That's the biggie. And then the second one is when they're troubled. The last thing you do is what's the matter with you? Is sometimes we actually have, there's a neuroscience now that shows when girls get upset and the amygdala is fired up, the next centre of the brain is the word centre. And for boys it's,

Kyle Wester (17:32.526)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Maggie Dent (17:56.697)
the body. So sometimes moving the body opens the mouth. And so I've often said, you know, take him for a walk, go for a bike ride or shoot some hoops and gradually. And there are some principles now walking with a boy around the oval, you know, to discuss what's going on. And it was another beautiful story. I hope that's okay to share, but it was a

Kyle Wester (17:58.262)
Mm.

Kyle Wester (18:12.596)
Mm. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Kyle Wester (18:18.779)
yeah.

Maggie Dent (18:19.5)
a couple who had been having awful problems with their 14 year old, he'd been suspended twice, the schools, he just wasn't letting on what was going on and they were really worried. And I was doing a podcast on the radio as the dad drove home and he said, I've got a great idea. He said, love, I'm going to take him for a walk. I've just heard this lady and he's called out to his son and his son's come out a bit suspicious. Because when you try something different, they're going, what's going on? Walked all the way up to Maccas, had a smoothie and a bucket of chips.

Kyle Wester (18:41.518)
That's right.

Maggie Dent (18:48.666)
No interrogation and then halfway on the way home the boys turned to his dad and started sobbing. He said, dad I want to tell you what really is happening. The year 11 boys are bullying me and they've threatened to cut my face if I dob on them and this boy has just come out with it and he's sobbed in his dad's arms and then as they walked on home he's a very different boy and he ran through and said hi mum and she's looked at him like and he said who would have thought a walk on a bucket of chips.

and we've got to something we haven't been able to figure out for eight months. So sometimes it's the how. Our intentions often wonderful, but sometimes we come from, you know, a place that the communication isn't one that wants to open them up. So a couple of my suggestions.

Kyle Wester (19:33.042)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. Well, so we also wanted to get your thought on this. So w what I've been running into a lot over the past year is a lot of teen boys who are, you know, they're maybe like twelve, thirteen. I mean, they're not big kids per se. They're kind of smaller boys, but they're they're they're angry. They're they're aggressive verbally, physically, and like I'm getting these calls from dads.

Maggie Dent (19:51.802)
you

Kyle Wester (19:57.346)
Who want to handle it differently. Like the you know, everything within them, even within me, when I hear it, I'm like, wow, you see the you need to manhandle that kid. You can't let that kid dominate your house that way. But like the kid is literally like, you know, throwing things and yelling. And the dad's like, I'm trying not to use aggression back, but it doesn't I don't know what to do with this kid. He's so angry. I'm I I you know, I I even had a call from a guy, his son's seven.

And he's like an ex-military guy. He's a big dude, but he's like, I'm trying to get control of the situation, but I don't know how to do it without either being completely passive or running the kid over and scaring the crap out of the kid. And so what what's your thoughts on this? Cause this has been just, I think within the past year or so, I've been getting a lot more calls about this.

Maggie Dent (20:38.19)
Yeah.

Look, there's a couple of things underneath this. And I think if we look to the slightly older boys at the moment, the world's painting, twin boys and teen boys in such a negative light, which doesn't help them feel good about, you know, the journey they're on. But I also want to say it's a really confusing space for boys in that window. And I often find that severe anger is anxiety, like massive. I have no idea what's going on because we know with some of that brain pruning, they can get more forgetful.

Kyle Wester (21:04.376)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (21:11.106)
more disorganized so they get busted even more often and there's no one on their side. So that's the boy I call is untethered. Untethered even though that parent is saying what do I do to stop this? No what's under that? So what's under that is often a really really big layer of something that's troubling them very deeply but they don't have the ability to communicate it and they just it's just getting bigger and bigger so I feel awful and awful.

Kyle Wester (21:20.182)
Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (21:40.581)
So I call it like, it's like the nervous system gets just full. And unless they've got something that is emptying it, so they've got a spark, like a fabulous hobby, or they're into sport or music, or they love riding their bike or their skateboard. If they've got nothing that can empty it, and they come home from a school environment, those boys are all in the window that I worry deeply about, because this engagement there, because boys are going, what's in this for me? Why do I have to do something? What are we going to use again?

Kyle Wester (21:45.1)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (22:03.043)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (22:06.999)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (22:09.174)
I had lovely boys say to me in English, why do I have to learn to write an essay and this I'm going to play football for Australia? Noble, very noble. So I'm saying there's a great level of misunderstanding for those boys. And I feel sometimes we need to be able to explain to them. So every time the body does a change around puberty, whether it's physical, hormonal, cognitive, emotional, you name it, the body goes into a state of stress.

Kyle Wester (22:16.568)
Yes, yes.

Kyle Wester (22:35.086)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (22:37.914)
because it's change, because it feels different, right? And so we need to prepare them for these changes. And I know that there is a section from Boyz Men, I explained all that, and there's probably blogs online that explain it as well. When a boy gets to understand why he has left his backpack on the bus, he hasn't suddenly got sick or stupid. His brain has pruned off something that helps him remember. And so when they get to understand the possible play outs of the changes,

Kyle Wester (22:40.204)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (23:01.429)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Dent (23:06.82)
they're able to go, so it's probably part of my brain stuff. And so, mum, can we work out a way that helps me remember what day the mass test is on? So in other words, start getting parents who come in going, I can remember it was, you and the dads need to say, I can remember how lousy it was, you know, because it happened to me as well, but you're in a busier world with even more negative messaging. And I want you to know that, you know, we're on your side. My big message.

Kyle Wester (23:28.15)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (23:34.509)
is you need to tell, I say every single kid, but because teenage boys make more poor choices, is no matter what, mate, no matter what choice you make in this journey, no matter what, no matter what grades you get, we love you when we've got your back. So if anything bad happens, we're the first people you call, we're coming for you. And every time they hear no matter what, it anchors them back into, so I'm not just, you're not out there.

and there's nowhere to land. It's the same safe base that our little ones need, our teen boys need it, but it's how we approach that conversation. And it's the scripts. So in Help Me Help My Teen, I wrote lots of scripts because I know how to open conversations with angry teenagers. And you probably have had a lot of practice too, is when you work out the way to open the conversation, everything shifts. But just saying, what the heck's wrong with you? Why are you so damn angry? They just open the door like permanently.

Kyle Wester (24:27.724)
Yes, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yes. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (24:30.638)
And so often with boys, what can open them to coming towards us is kindness when they don't deserve it. So when they've given you a serve when they've come home from school, because they're really angry because something you're not letting them do something and all their friends are doing it and you're the worst. The first thing I want any parent to believe is the fact they're saying that to you means you are the safest person in their world. They can't say it at school.

But if they can say it to you, they need it to come out because it helps the nervous system. So we don't take it personally. Yep, we let it go. It's just a stage. And then my recommendation is 20 minutes later, because we need the glitter to settle. The nervous system needs to settle. Otherwise, just, you know, two storming things, a disaster. So when it's settled and you've had yourself a nice cup of tea or coffee or eaten something lovely to calm down.

Kyle Wester (25:13.762)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (25:20.504)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (25:26.906)
I recommend 20 minutes you go down and knock on your son's door. Wait at least 20 seconds just in case. And then you pop in maybe a cup of hot chocolate or their favourite juice, a couple of Bickeys maybe, and then you shove a dog in if you've got one and then you shut the door. So you don't say anything because...

Kyle Wester (25:43.438)
Ha ha ha.

Maggie Dent (25:48.141)
we have this ability, we think that they should be able to come out of that room and say, gee, mum, I'm so sorry I spoke to you so disrespectfully. And I know it's caused you pain and I'm full of remorse. am sorry. No, they haven't got that ability. Right? So with we model, we are bigger than this and our connection is still solid. Then that gives that boy an opportunity later and often they'll come out and bump you or mutter, because in the bedroom,

Kyle Wester (25:53.603)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (26:00.194)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (26:14.602)
After a boy has been awful to the people he loves, he is at war with himself deeply. You might not see it on his face, but he seriously is. And then he beats himself up more, which makes him angry again, lowers his self-worth. He doesn't have much in the tank to go back to school the next day. And it all can just get too, too much.

Kyle Wester (26:20.654)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Kyle Wester (26:37.462)
That's good. As you were talking, I was thinking, a layer that that I see there's also all this information that's saying that boys are angry and this is what a man is and a man is tough and a man is and this is masculinity. And I just would love to hear from you. What do you say is mask you know, masculinity? Healthy, happy, you know. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (26:54.298)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's that whole thing of shifting the early years, allowing boys to have feelings and allowing boys to cry. I feel we are shifting it away, but it's almost like why we were going in a positive direction. Then, you know, technology and their disgusting algorithms is dragging our boys back into holes. Yeah, that they are not

Kyle Wester (27:16.706)
You're right. No, I agree. By sucking them back in. Exactly. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (27:20.664)
They are not seeking it. They come for them because they can make most money out of it. one of the things I want is first to get boys outraged that they're just being used to make profits for big tech. They don't care that they harm our kids. They just don't care. The same for our girls. So the first thing is to make sure they're aware of that. The second is, we giving, how do we treat boys when they genuinely make mistakes? Because again, so often it wasn't intended.

Kyle Wester (27:25.08)
Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (27:49.051)
but we so quickly want to have a go at them and go, what did you do that for? Would you break the window for what we did? And again, we're not allowing the calm down to happen where we go, what were you trying to do? Right? So that they can see they weren't actually aiming at the window. It was a mistake and I need to be accountable for the damage I've done. And I need to know next time, where would I play with my baseball?

Kyle Wester (28:07.107)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (28:17.444)
So we, know, the, we go through those process allows them to feel like immediately, I don't have to go into shame mode, which is what the patriarchy is basically done. says, and that anger is the only pathway out. I, what I've done with so many boys over the years, I said, walk it out, walk out that big feeling. Cause under that big feeling is other feelings, right? And that we are, we are starting to see a shift in that direction.

Although I feel at the moment we've got a little bit of an overflow from the other, but you're absolutely right. So where do vulnerable feelings come out? In homes? In the dark? In the bedroom? So yeah, quiet pillow chats? In the car? And whatever it is, can sit it up if you need to have a chat with a boy that could potentially bring up some anger because we're calling them out on something they've done that they've embarrassed about.

Kyle Wester (28:56.526)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (29:13.034)
it need you need to buy I need to have a wherever you have the chat so in my house it was a deck chat so when when when's a good time for a deck chat and they look at me going no

Kyle Wester (29:18.563)
Mm.

Kyle Wester (29:25.486)
Yes. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (29:28.026)
It's a Finchia afternoon tea and is that a good time or do you want to do it in a little while? So I want to make sure they're fed. They've got some agency on when we're having the conversation. We never drop it on them big time. And as they come out, it's the same space every time. None of their brothers can hear them. And I stand in the same space and we're out in nature and he's next to me looking that way and I'm this way.

And I start with that, I've just had a call from the school around something that happened that obviously you got really angry at and I just want to know what was happening for you. Can we have a chat about it? So I come in at a really, what I call calm, curious and compassionately. And then what happens is then they can, no need to be defensive because they can hear that.

Kyle Wester (30:11.146)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Maggie Dent (30:20.814)
we're going to explore it because a part of him wants to know why did I get so angry? So one of the other things too is as our boys get older in the puberty window, we know the limbic brain grows. And so this explosive stuff is very common between 13 and 15. But I even had a year 11 boy once in my English class, all of a sudden get up and throw his desk and his chair and punch the brick wall.

Kyle Wester (30:45.996)
Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (30:47.806)
and took off outside and we looked around the room and none of his friends knew what the hell had happened. So I went out and I'm really good at deescalating. Anyway, not only have I got a drink of water and I'm sitting side by side so can't see him and I said, you know, how are you doing? said, sorry miss. He said, I failed my math test. So what had happened, it had taken 15 minutes from the math test failure in my English class.

for all of the big feelings, which are largely irrational and massive, to explode. And so what would happen in most schools is he'd be sent down to be disciplined, whereas that's not what he needs right now. Right now, he just needs to come back down and be calm and go, can see that. He broke three knuckles. What I really loved when I went back in the classroom was his mates had put all his stuff back up and they were just, there's this beautiful space as he walked back in.

Kyle Wester (31:21.526)
Mm.

Kyle Wester (31:25.634)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (31:45.179)
because they knew that we can explode at any moment in this really bumpy window. And that anger is often what's at the top, but what's underneath it was his profound disappointment. He'd aim for it, it was important to him, and he had failed. And so again, adolescence is a bumpy ride.

Kyle Wester (32:07.61)
Right. What you know, we know our biggest audience is is women. You know, so the women mostly listen to this podcast. and I know a lot of women are probably listening to this, hoping their husbands will listen to the podcast and going, Man, this is a great episode. I want them to hear what Maggie's saying. What what would you say to those moms who are hoping to get the dads on board to maybe moving away from this type of you know, the the anger being the main

Go to the harshness, the authoritarian type approach. What w what do you do to encourage moms on how to shift that in their home?

Maggie Dent (32:44.762)
Oh, look, think it's, you know, I think I said it before, no one likes being told what to do better. I think it's the, you know, what are we modelling in our home is incredibly important. And we all lose our schmick, come on, we all do it. And I think it's that message again, that knowing anger is a very valid human emotion, it's not a bad emotion, it's a very valid human emotion, just like many others. And I think that the hot moments that may happen,

Kyle Wester (32:50.303)
Yes, yes.

Maggie Dent (33:12.438)
If we just allow ourselves to be exactly what our toddlers need, a safe and grounded space, until everything has settled, like that glitter jar, everyone's glitter jar has got to be calm. And then we might have, you know, we might have a chat when we're all calm, you know, where we reach out to each other and say, what else could I do? I need to notice myself when I'm starting to get stressed.

Kyle Wester (33:24.61)
Yeah, yep.

Kyle Wester (33:36.654)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (33:36.933)
So one of my hints for parents is if you feel yourself starting to come up, you have a prefrontal that works. Your teenager doesn't. So you need to be the bigger person that goes, whoa, I'm getting fired up right now. And you put your hand up and say, hold on a minute. I've just noticed how really stressed I'm getting. So I'm gonna head off to my bedroom and calm down and I'll come out soon. But I also recommend in your bedroom is a large block of high quality fruit and nut chocolate, because technically it's a health food.

Kyle Wester (33:43.64)
Yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:06.114)
Ha ha ha.

Maggie Dent (34:06.668)
and sock back a couple of pieces of that, take some deep breaths, regroup yourself and then come out and be the parent you want to be. Because what is your child just seeing? You can struggle with anger and frustration. However, you paused and did something about it, whether it's walk outside or it's go get a drink of water, stick your head under a tap. And that's what our kids are watching. They're learning off us. Whereas if all they hear is the shouty, yelly, backfire,

Kyle Wester (34:18.008)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Maggie Dent (34:35.874)
then what are they learning about navigating big moments of anger and frustration?

Kyle Wester (34:42.178)
Yeah. Can can you encourage us? I know a big message of the good enough dad was you don't need to be perfect. You just need to be good enough. So if you could kind of in wrapping up this conversation, kind of encourage the audience about we're not looking for perfection. Sarah and I, Maggie are very big on sharing the ways we mess up on a daily basis. And actually I think perfection would be super discouraging for our kids because they would have to live up to that crap.

Maggie Dent (34:48.632)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (35:04.266)
way too

Kyle Wester (35:07.084)
I know. They'd be so anxious. They'd be like, how do we do this? So actually the fact that we mess up gives us so many great opportunities to repair, like you said, to ask for forgiveness, all these other skills that you actually want your kids to have. And if you did it right all the time, you you wouldn't get to do that. But but but but talk about how the the research actually shows being a good enough dad is good enough.

Maggie Dent (35:15.012)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Maggie Dent (35:28.826)
I think it's one of the best things that we've unraveled from the science of child development over the years is that we really can raise kids who grow and thrive if we get it right around 30 to 40 % of the time. And that 30 % of the time does sounds really low, but so in the good enough dad, think one of the things that we were very, I was very careful at, because I knew, I know that dads are way deeper.

Kyle Wester (35:45.782)
Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (35:55.855)
than what the world portrays them. Look at all the Cardane shows and shows that always made dad look like a boofhead, which is so outrageously disrespectful for most dads. So I always ask them, what's your muck up? And what's a proud parenting moment for you? So they did the whole, gosh, we got some hilarious muck up moments. one of my favorite parts of the show, because they have no prelim, is I asked them at the very end.

So what is the one thing that you want your kids to learn from you because you are their dad? And the number of times I get tears, I get Adam's apples going, you know, they suddenly land on the importance of them. And my God, I just want them to learn to be kind. I want them to know that I don't just say I love them. I want them to feel my love. These really profoundly deep things.

So I wanna reassure, and you know, when the mum's out there who think dad really doesn't care as much, he actually does, but we've gotta change the way that we allow them to express those feelings. And that means sometimes it is a, you know, it's a warm conversation with a good coffee or a good Milo or a good glass of wine where we really let them feel heard because I think...

Kyle Wester (37:09.794)
Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Dent (37:14.114)
Women are always talking about parenting and raising, being a better mother, but sometimes it's not been a space. And I know many dads were shamed for walking a pram down the street in the early days. So that's why I'm loving the movements around fathering that are honoring the fact that, you know, there's a big heart inside. Yeah, they can be strong and powerful and caring and loving. And I feel that that's the message that, you know, I think all dads need to be reassured by.

Kyle Wester (37:19.394)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (37:44.108)
Yeah. Well, and I would say it was those kind of you're describing the kind of conversations that Sarah and I had over many years that her doing such a wonderful job of listening to my heart, believing the best in my intentions. And even though I continued to fall back on

Weird ideas that she had never thought of, like good cop, bad cop, these kind of things. Like she's like, I don't understand what you're even talking about. Like you're making me bad cop. I've gotta be bad cop. Yeah. And there's all these types of ways I felt like I was getting sucked into becoming a dad I didn't want to become. And just talking that out with her, it really helped me. It wasn't even like her correcting me. It was her giving me an opportunity to almost hear myself out loud, like say these things and her say.

Maggie Dent (38:06.074)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (38:17.006)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (38:30.806)
I saw it differently. And then and then just blowing me with way how she perceived that moment with our kids. and then my my proudest moment, Maggie, this was a really proud moment, was our first two kids, I kind of sucked at being that dad who would help at night when the kids woke up.

Maggie Dent (38:32.794)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (38:46.252)
like waking like helping the baby and holding the baby. I was kind of I I didn't feel very confident in that. But by our third, I did feel confident. And there was this moment where I came in and she had been like up all that night with with our third. And I came in and I held her and I kind of just like sung to her and like swayed for a bit and she finally fell asleep. And this was really cool. And I'm saying this because this was really helped me and my change. That next morning I got a text from her and she said, I wish I could have videotaped that.

Maggie Dent (38:52.953)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (39:13.966)
'Cause that was a moment where you looked exactly like the dad. I know you wanted to be, the father I wanted. It was just such a sweet moment. Yeah. And so Yes. Yeah.

Maggie Dent (39:14.052)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (39:21.498)
And sometimes not big moments. Sometimes it's turning out with your favorite cup of tea while you're breastfeeding in middle of the night, or it's just, let me do this tonight. You go and have a bath, let me run the chaos. It's just these little gestures. And I think when we do it both ways, so one of my tips for co-parents is, what is it that you'd like to do for an hour and a half a week that would fill your cup? I need you to prioritize that before your children's needs.

Kyle Wester (39:30.189)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Wester (39:50.072)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (39:50.553)
Because what we know then is that one hour, even so, some mums just go to a coffee shop and read a book for an hour and they reckon it's just like, whoa, right? So what comes back is a full cup in the other parent, which gives them more to manage all the things because raising children, like they've always been messy, annoying and unpredictable and, right?

Kyle Wester (39:56.172)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (40:13.54)
So our ability to navigate them in a really stressful world, let's be real, it's way harder right now with all the sorts of things that are making us frightened. It is about, am I prioritizing taking care of myself? And I do laugh because I keep saying, I love the men who ride in Lycra, very long distances, that makes them feel good. I went, good on you, definitely not one of mine. They may think worse, but whatever it is.

Kyle Wester (40:35.63)
Yes, yes. Yes.

Maggie Dent (40:42.586)
Because then we've got more for the family. Yeah, it's not one doing more, you know, like, because that's, that's a really easy one. So I hope that makes sense. Look after yourselves.

Kyle Wester (40:45.644)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (40:51.01)
Well yeah. does. Yeah. Well, Maggie, you have shared some fantastic wisdom today. And I hope every dad who's listening is encouraged. I know they will be. And every mom who's listening, make sure you share it with the just say, Hey, listen to this. This is pretty good. Yeah. Like find a way to do it while they're exercising. Help them listen to it. But we want to thank you so much for the work you're doing. It's so important.

Because we really do believe dads are crucial to the raising of their kids. And your voice, and I know we only recently stumbled upon the long history of your work and we're like, dang, she's been saying this stuff for a while. Where I wish I would have stumbled upon it. So for dads who haven't heard of her work, tell them where they can find you, Maggie, and and really get in touch with the work you're doing.

Maggie Dent (41:22.532)
you

Maggie Dent (41:32.057)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (41:35.451)
Oh, look, apparently according to my grandchildren who are now tweens, you just Google my name and I'm everywhere like a rash. So maggiedent.com, but also, so within that, that leads you to all other podcasts I've done with other people, but also there's lots of free information. And then there's my YouTube channel where I've got over 200 short videos that I've been creating since 2011. And what I love is most of it.

is free information. Obviously I've written 10 books and done lots of other stuff but that I wanted it to be accessible to people regardless of whether you could afford to buy a book. And so yeah, it's pretty exciting. My audiobook sales are interesting because of course shipping a book to America can cost a lot of money. That were the number of times we've had audio book downloads because you can hear me in my Aussie accent.

Kyle Wester (42:02.903)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (42:29.826)
That's right. Awesome.

Maggie Dent (42:31.382)
And sometimes they're really quite cheap and easy to do. I'm hoping, yeah, it's lovely. And I want to thank you both for all the work you're doing for families, because when we have really good therapists who are able to hold this, you know, this place of just genuine care and concern and compassion without judgment, who are able to show how imperfect we all are, it makes it so much easier for them to walk out and go, okay, I've got this. And you are your kid's best bet.

Kyle Wester (42:34.967)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (42:57.912)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I want to encourage all the dads to like at the Good Enough Dad podcast. What's so great about it is you interviewing all these other dads. Cause I think like Sarah pointed to earlier, it is hard sometimes if you don't have that vision or have that picture of what does a healthy dad look like, right? If you don't really have a model for it. Well, you put them together on a podcast and they got to hear a lot of great voices, not talking about how to be perfect, but about how to show up for your kids, how how to guide them, talking about rights of passage.

Maggie Dent (43:22.755)
Yeah.

Maggie Dent (43:26.796)
Nice.

Yeah.

Kyle Wester (43:31.984)
All types of cool topics. And so I encourage all of them to to find you there. So so thank you once again for coming on. I know you're all the way down in Australia and these are always kind of hard to set up, but I really appreciate you prioritizing this and just can't say thank you enough.

Maggie Dent (43:36.708)
Thank you.

Maggie Dent (43:41.05)
Thank

Maggie Dent (43:48.356)
Been my absolute delight. Thank you very, very much. Cheers.

Kyle Wester (43:52.068)
Okay. Okay. Goodbye.