Episode 229

You know, a lot of parents assume that if they could just figure out the right way to parent, things would get easier. But parenting isn't something most of us do alone. You're often trying to raise the same kids with another person who has a completely different childhood, different personality fears, strengths, expectations, and ideas about what children need. And we know that personally. We didn't come into pre-parenting thinking exactly the same way.

And we definitely haven't agreed on everything along the way. So today we thought we'd do something a little different. Instead of teaching a parenting strategy, we want to talk about our story, what we believed before we had kids, where we struggled, what parenting exposed in each of us, and what we've had to change and how we've learned to build a shared approach without becoming the same parent. Because if you and your spouse sometimes look at the same child and think, how can we possibly see this so differently?

You are definitely not the only ones.

Kyle and Sara Wester (00:01.112)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hey everybody, I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, we recently got to do a really fun interview, okay, with Eli Harwood from Attachment, the Attachment Nerd on Instagram, right? And a topic that comes up a lot, that a lot of people want to interview us about and that people around us seem interested in because I think it's one of our strengths that we have in our relationship is the ability to parent together, to be on the same team.

Yeah, and I think a lot of couples sometimes find parenting very hard to be on the same team. and that they seem to cause a lot of conflict within their marriage. Yeah, okay. So I think I think we run into it all the time. We run into I mean, you guys probably relate to this, you know, like you get you get married and you have kids, and I think even sometimes we even had some really good conversations. But we run into couples all the time, just like us, who are like, Wait a second, we're raising the same kids, but we see it very, very different. Yeah. How how

All these little situations. It can even be nurturing situations. It can be positives or negatives, but we we how we think we should parent or do something with this kid is way different. It creates so much conflict. And I think everyone can kind of on some level relate that you're on very different pages when it comes to parenting with somebody. Yeah. And before we dive into that topic, what I want to say, what we've been trying to do lately on the podcast is basically have kind of three different types of podcast episodes. Sometimes we're interviewing some expert.

you know, throughout the country to really help give value to our listeners. And then other times we have like a specific topic where we're trying to give you real step by step instructions about how we would handle that situation. And then other times more instructional, psychoeducational as they would say. Yeah. And then another one's more just kind of free flowing, right? Where we're just talking from the cuff. Yeah. Well we have an idea of what the topic is, but we wanted to just be more loose about that. Yeah. Yeah.

And really would love to get your feedback. So, as a listener, which of those three you prefer the most? It'd be great to hear back from you. And you can always comment on the podcast, or you can also email me at Kyle at Artor Raising Humans. would love to hear your feedback on which one you prefer. So today we're gonna kind of do that third style, you know? Yeah, kind of a just a conversation. And we love your feedback because we we really are doing this for the listeners, you know, like we we can sit and talk all day by ourselves, but we're doing this and we want it to be helpful. So knowing what's helpful helps us deliver that.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:22.626)
Well, and and we got to interview Eli from Attachment Nerd just a few weeks back. So I encourage you to check out that episode if you missed it. And then her interview with us on her podcast, How to Deal, will be dropping sometime in the next few weeks or months. And you can hear us kind of dive into this topic more in depth. Okay. but today, Sarah, you you you started kind of jumping into it where it is real we we all come into parenting with such different paradigms, you know?

even marriage with such different paradigms, relationships, you know. And I know for us, we came from more faith-based families, right? where that added its own layer of certain types of roles that we play, things that we should or should not be doing as a husband or wife, right? as a man or woman, all those kind of ideas, right? And yes, there's some early on in our marriage, which we were married about five years, so it's close to six before we had our first kid, you know.

And in that time we went and got our master's degrees in counseling. I I really thought we were super equipped to be able to do it. I thought we're ready to go. We we we're really healthy. We've talked through a lot of things, but parenting was on a whole new level. When kids entered the the mix, for me, it brought to light a lot of misconceptions I had about parenting. Yeah. I think it just brings up things you can't even anticipate sometimes, you know?

One of our first arguments we won't get into here was about Santa Claus. Who would have thought? Who would have thought Santa Claus that was a long would be a big deal? Yes. So I think it's like until you're there in the moment, you don't even know I I mean, I wouldn't say, hey, every couple before you have kids, make sure you discuss Santa Claus, Easter party, you know, Tooth Fairy. Those wouldn't be at the top of the list yet. That was, you know, it it brought in a whole

a lot of deeper levels. It wasn't just Santa Claus. It brought in a whole lot of things. It did, yeah. about how you talk to kids and truth and what's truth and all you know. So but I think it's such a great example of you can't anticipate at all. Things are going to come up when you have No, that should have been that should have been a big sign because that was about two or three months into our marriage. We should have taken that one and gone, huh, maybe we need a lower if we were that lasted till like three in the morning and by the end

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:39.234)
You were in tears and I was like, Why are you crying? Like this is I we're just talking about it's funny now, but it was a it was a dark moment. And what's funny, we weren't gonna have kids for another six years. yeah, yeah. But like it was so then we start Yes. It was so important for us to get this solved about it. It did point out that we're thinking away in the future, right? But I know I came in and sometimes I feel kind of embarrassed saying this, but I came into parenting thinking at that time you were working at an agency and you'd been working with a lot of kids.

That were very young, you were actually getting certified in infant mental health. And in my kind of compartmentalized brain, I was working with kids at an elementary school. And I really thought it made sense that you were gonna be the lead, the lead parent zero to four, and then I would be the lead parent four to twelve. And then we just needed to get better at teenage. And I remember you saying stuff like that, and I was.

And I never thought you were serious. I was serious. I was like, I'm one, definitely not relinquishing my elementary age. I'm like, okay, my parts are done. Here you go. Like, yeah, we don't have lead parents. But I didn't take you serious, but you know, looking back, you were serious. I was dead serious. Yes. You yes. I was like, whatever you think we need to do zero to four, you take the lead. Who's ever most educated at that age? You didn't even let me take the

I told you what I wanted, and you still didn't. That's true. That's true. But but there was a lot of even like, where are the kids gonna sleep? Are they gonna be in our room? Do they gotta be in the same Yeah, you did not let me take the lead. So there was a lot of ways we were not on the same page. Yeah. And what I began to notice, and I bet a lot of listeners have felt this too. I began to notice one, there was a lot of unresolved stuff from my own childhood that I'd never talked through. But then I don't even think you were aware of it. Yeah, I was I there may there were pieces you were

Definitely aware of, hey, this wasn't great. But then there were other things that you didn't know or didn't realize they would come back up. We don't always know what's gonna come back up. You know, the messaging and things that we just live by, we don't realize it till we have that little person in front of us and and here we are 2.0. Yeah. Well, and then the second part was this. you know, not only was I had to deal with that stuff that I wasn't aware of, but then also I wasn't aware.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:59.256)
How when this these conflicts arose about certain topics, typically at that young age, it was about sleep and about feelings. So big feelings and how big feelings were gonna be expressed. So the lack of sleep was surprising to me. Yeah. And then the big feelings and what we were going to do about those big feelings, that began to create some fissures in what I thought was a really solid marriage. Yeah. I th I thought we were able to talk and work through almost anything, but then all of a sudden,

It was seeming like we were so far apart when it came to those topics. Yeah, for for sure. And that and that that's something that began to worry me because I was thinking, like, I don't I don't know how do we get on the same page here. Because if we start to create some bad habits now, then that's going to continue creating a lot of conflict throughout the entire time we're raising these kids, you know? Right. And the more kids we have.

The more possible conflicts could ensue. And all of that began to really worry me. Right. And I I was, I mean, I've said this before, but for people who haven't heard me say, I was definitely worried. I remember, especially by the time I was seeing you as missing out because you had delegated the zero to four to me. and I didn't I was seeing that in action. I was seeing you really, I mean, I've it was like 90-10. I was 90% parent, you were 10% parent.

When it came to sleep, when it came to all the Yeah, all the regular care. I mean, you couldn't have probably I think you knew her doctor's name. Yeah. Yeah. But you never went to her doctor's appointment. I mean simple, simple things. You know, like feeding, what she ate, when she ate the routines, the clothes, the I mean, I would pack the diaper bag, get in the you might lift the car seat into the car. I mean, it was like a ninety ten thing here. And I remember thinking, but on the

on the practical side, but on the relationship side you were as well. Yeah. And I was much more the person down on the floor playing with her, connecting with her, building that attunement, that relationship, that attachment. And I remember thinking how much you were missing out and and inviting you in, but not, you know, it's like I can't control you. It's your choice at the end of the day. But being worried about where this was gonna go down the road. And obviously the plan of just handing her over wasn't gonna work 'cause you didn't have the relationship.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:16.714)
And that's just a I hadn't thought a really dumb idea. It's a really dumb idea, anyways. I would never just be like, Okay, now he's in charge, but that wouldn't work. In my mind it came down and that's obviously a lack of understanding about parenting, was yeah, I wasn't thinking it was about the relationship. I think it was about education and like just being educated. So I feel like I've spent a lot of times at that point I'd spent with hundreds and hundreds of kids of over those years being a school counselor, and I'm like

I'm spending a lot of time with little kids. I know how to interact with little kids. And it was like that was my mindset. And it was also maybe the fear, because I did have a moment that was really a shaming to me where you had gone back to work and you left me with Abby and Abby was about nine months old and you told me how I had gone for I had I had to go for something. Because normally she was in childcare, but then for whatever reason, I don't remember the circumstances, I was gone and and

And by this time I was like, he kinda knows. It's only for a few hours or morning or something like that. It's gonna be okay. He's gotta feed her one time. Yeah. And I thought left the bottle. Yeah. And you you made feeding look so easy. And feeding And she ate at childcare, just fine. We had no worries. But feeding was very difficult. And I I felt like this is why I should not be involved with this little kid, because I can't even feed my own daughter. So this moment that could have if it had everything gone well, you might have actually felt

Capable of you might but instead it seemed to reinforce the concern that you already have. Yeah, that I shouldn't be doing this. And I even took her to the lady who did watch her and she fed her just fine. And that reinforced it too that I'm This is why I should not be there. So so that's probably where I even checked out a little bit more and just saw myself in these typical roles that I grew up in. I need to be the provider, I need to just work, I need to make sure I'm working more hours, making more money to make sure I'm paying the bills.

You do what you do. You were fantastic with Abby. You should be the one spending as much time as possible. And I wasn't thinking. I didn't know the brain. I didn't know how these these you know neural pathways are formed by me attaching to her and connecting. Hadn't read any of that stuff. And you had read all of that stuff. So you you knew that was important. Yeah. And we we just weren't in this space, and I think couples can relate to this of knowing how to really talk about some of these things. Cause even though I might say something to him and invite him into it,

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:38.777)
And we kind of knew a little bit about our separate backgrounds and things like that. It was we were a little still lost with all of this, with all that we were doing, still a little lost on how to really bring things to the table and ask good questions and kind of come together more. It was still sort of our s of your pathway, my pathway in parenting. And those were not similar at all. No, what yeah, 'cause you had talked to me how you

We you said we're not gonna spank you know. even though I grew up in a home where people were were spanked, so did you. And we thought that's just what you're supposed to do. And I I had some reservations about it, but I still thought that's what you gotta do. you know, really you wanted there to be less yelling, which is good. you didn't want it to be a home where there was yelling, where parents were threatening and those kind of things, you know, with with whatever threats they had. in my mind

I thought it was gonna look better than my home growing up. Like I didn't want to ever slap my kids where I had been slapped as a kid. and but I and I probably didn't even want to even spank, but I didn't know what that would look like. Yeah. And I didn't still kind of behavior. I would say you were yes, I had been I'm very I'm very grateful. some of the tools my parents gave me, I honestly do appreciate. And though there were some things I decided to leave behind, like a punishment.

you know, some punishment styles and behavior approaches. I had been fortunate enough to learn some really great things and start moving in that direction where you hadn't so much. You were getting exposed, but you were still very much we do what we know and behavior management was what you knew. Rather it be through punishment or yelling or whatever. Yeah. And so I was just in the we've talked about this on other podcasts, but I was in the space of, you know, a calm approach and then Well you've been learning how to be really good with infants and like

You you weren't focused on their behavior. You were focused on connecting with them, helping them regulate their emotions. And that's where so you and I were both ev it was like our education should have been a strength. Sometimes it was a weakness because I was getting reinforced the behavioral approach by the teachers I worked with and by the school system. And you were by the work you were doing spending time with learning how to tell parents how to be with their infants and how

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:54.029)
And so then we are almost like speaking different languages. Right. And that that made it. A lot of parents out there feel like here's my language. And this is how I am with my kids, is how I show up. And so it's concerning when the other parent shows up in an entirely different way. Yeah. And speaks a whole different language. Yes. So so there were some heated conversations, mostly at that early age, about sleep and about what you thought we should be doing about sleep and how I wanted to more

Just make them sleep. I'm just so tired of them waking up and being and you were much more compassionate with them and realizing more of a skills base like sleep. In my mind, I just wanted them to sleep that night. And you were like, we're trying to teach them how to sleep, right? Which I'm so grateful now that the kids are 16, 14, and 10. They'd sleep great. And like they have learned that skill, you know? And that that that was because you kept advocating for that. Whereas mine was just like, I'm stressed from work. I want to get some sleep. I'm tired of getting woken up.

And so whatever we need to do to make this sleep up. So I say that was kind of the first conflict. But then as Abby was getting older, and she definitely has big feelings, she has big, strong feelings, then that started to trigger something in me. That definitely in my home, big feelings, you shut that crap down. Like you do not let big feelings. Like especially this is a very, you know, kind of just from the culture I grew up in. The dad in particular needed to be big and needed to be strong and needed to make sure that I was in charge in that moment and Abby did not

need to be given that power to be able to like express her big feelings. Right. And yeah, so I don't know where we're going with this, but yeah. So my I'm saying but you sell it differently. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know. You wanted to No, I know. I mean like we're so my background feelings, I think, man, wasn't everybody raised where f feelings were

I mean, even coming if you look historically from World War II and the Great Depression, room for that kind of stuff, you know. But we have learned that the brain learns resiliency and all these beautiful things come from actually feeling the feeling, learning how you can survive it, move through it in healthy ways, have compassion for yourself. There's all kinds of podcasts about this. So I won't go into that. But I was now in that space of hey, I don't know exactly how to do this, but I know that I want to be

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:11.916)
That guidepost from my child that when she's having these big overwhelming feelings, she's only been on the planet for three years. Yeah. It's it's huge. She doesn't know what to do with this. I'm gonna be her steady and I'm gonna be with her and let her know. I'm gonna model it. I'm gonna lend her my calm. so I'm gonna be this steady, calm presence, which is not always easy. It's not always I did it perfect, but that was my goal. My goal was I'm gonna show up, I wanna be calm.

let her move through the feeling, not just shut down the feeling, but learn that she can survive it, she can experience it, she can come out the other side. And by doing this repeatedly, she will get these skills of how to calm down, how to take care of herself, how to move, you know. So that was where I was at. But it looked like from someone who comes from a model of w success is shutting down the feeling. Right? Success is not having the tantrum. Yeah. So you know my success was totally different. My success was

I have the feeling, I have the tantrum, I move through it, I learn how to calm, I get better and better at it. Had no idea about any of that. And and for you, that looked like failure. It looked like, my goodness, we're raising this kid who's gonna be out of control. She's gonna be a big puddle of emotion moving through, and she has no no self-control, no, you know, your mind can go all kinds of places with this. And so it looked like failure. Yeah. So when I was sitting in the room with her, being her steady, her calm, trying to do this stuff.

you would sometimes come in yeah and go, This is not working, this is failure. And from your perspective, it looked like that. Yeah, it did look like that. Your expectations, what you thought was successful. And so I think parents often what is success to one versus the other can be completely different. And it creates then there was conflict between us as well as her being in this moment. Yeah. And then you would then she's coming from one parent's like, my Godpost, help me calm down. The other one's like, shut it down, girl. You know?

So well and I would say, so I I bring that up, and I'm glad you you bring up that story, is then when she was about two and a half, we had our son, right? And so then Brennan was born, and that so happened to come, it was all just such a perfect time because he was born right as I had the summer off because I was an elementary school counselor. Yeah. And that meant I was spending a lot of time with that.

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:21.644)
Right. It kind of threw you into this time of cause I was busy with him sometimes and and you were more Well, so my zero to four thing was blown out of the water. I had to spend time with my two and a half year old, and all of a sudden I began to experience what you were saying. That I began to get this stronger connection with Abby. That helped me better not only understand her, but also have more compassion and patience for her. Right. Right. So instead of her just like her big emotions being an inconvenience, it was like I saw that as a cry for help.

She's saying, Dad, will you help me? Yeah. Because we were having so much more like fun moments. Like we we, you know, we we when Brenda was born, we were exploring all the different parks in Tulsa. And you know, we were hanging out really, she was really early riser. She'd wake up at 5:30, I'd be up with her at 5 30, we'd be watching sunsets together, we'd be sitting there doing all these fun things together. And I started then having a glimpse of what you were trying to do. You know, now I saw your intervention less from a judgmental place. I began to see it more from curiosity, right? But then around that same time,

I also got to go to Florida and learn about the brain, about the science of the brain, Dr. Dan Siegel's science of interpersonal neurobiology, and just how the brain looks like when it when the kid is scared, and when the kid is overwhelmed, and when the kid is actually calm and able to regulate their body. And that then was an eye-opener to what you've been doing. All of a sudden I could see it in a different way. And I saw, wait, Sarah has a long-term plan here.

Like she's got she actually it's not about stopping the thing from happening, it's about guiding, teaching, discipling our teaching. Building the skill. It's not just this one moment. It's this one moment is revealing a skill she needs. And so we're gonna be building this so that by the time she's grown up, yeah, she's mastered it. And and that was exciting to me. It was exciting instead of this stuff happening to me where I almost saw myself.

Like in a silly way, like a victim to the big emotions. It was like, no, this is no different than teaching her how to eat, no different than teaching her how to ride a bike, right? Like teaching her what to do with her big feelings. my gosh, this is great. Like I actually like, I I mean, I want to do that. I want to participate that. And then that started us bringing us like several degrees closer together, close to where now our conversations were about skill building, about how to disciple our kids.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:42.156)
What is the long-term vision of success with our kids? Instead of just stopping something in the moment, what is that moment giving us an opportunity to build and teach? Yeah, because I think we had similar goals. Like if you would have sat us down and said, what do you hope your family looks like in 20 years? Right? We would have said, I hope we're really, really close. I hope we hang out. I hope we have a lot of laughs together. I hope, you know, we love each other, support each other, you know, those kinds of things. But our pathways for getting there were very, very, very

Different. And I think in that moment it gave us a lot more details about the path to get there. Yeah. Cause you then saw my path and and I had explained my path, but but sometimes having someone else come in and say it a different way, you know, or or it brings it it brought it to light. So I was dedicated to my path. It's like even if you weren't gonna come to my path. And so for parents, I think who

They're like, yeah, but they're not seeing it. They're not coming, you know, then I think you you stick, you know, that path of relationship and attunement and connection and attachment and all those kinds of things you're trying to build, even if the other person is there, still build it because your child can still learn those skills. Rather everyone's on board or not, your child can still learn it. And

And I but I think in that moment you there was like a light shone on my path and it made more sense. It illuminated it like the long term goal here. Yeah. So you were like, okay, I see some of what you're using to get there. I see the pathways. I see the the tools and things that you're trying to pick up and carry and bring into our family. And so that was immensely helpful. And it sparked us having a lot more conversations ongoing about that. Well, once I saw it as skill building, then I was able to move away from the shame. Like instead of me going,

Why am I not a good dad? Why am I constantly failing? I was able to go, I just don't have the skills. I don't actually know like I don't know how to do this myself. I don't know how to regulate my own emotions. When I'm getting mad, I'm losing and why would I expect the three-year-old to be better than me at this? So all those kind of things started illuminating. So now I'm like, I need to, I want Sarah and I on a regular basis, whatever that looks like, like multiple times a week, whatever that looks like, for us to be consistently talking about just like we would.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:53.068)
about finances or just like we would about anything that we're trying to get better at, we need to be talking about parenting. We need to celebrate the wins. Like if I don't lose it on Abby when she throws that tantrum, that's a win. That's great. Right. and and and like when you're able to like set a boundary, even though you want to like be kind of soft on it, but you need to be a little more firm and you do that, I'm like, whoa, look at that. Sarah was able to do that, right? And so like whenever we're able to we're able to celebrate that, but then also come back and be able to say, hey

Can I show you a better way to do that or at least a different way, you know? And then when you would show me a different way or I'd show you a different way of handling a situation, that just illuminated there's so many ways I could have handled that. There wasn't just the one that I did or the one that my parents did, you know? Yeah, I think it's sort of like if we bring it out to if we were

Fixing up our house. Yeah. Right. Maybe you're picking up new things. Maybe you've never done drywall before, whatever it might be. You know, you're like, I need to learn this skill. So I think we saw it as we're teaching our kids skills, but how much we were learning skills along the way. Yeah. We at sometimes that meant delving into our past and looking at at role expectations or looking at how how was this handled in my house? And it is that what I'm doing now? Is that voice coming back up in me? So

It led to a lot of conversations and looking at ourselves individually, but then coming together, just like you would if you were building a house like, Hey, look, look what I figured out how to do or look, I did that, that's totally wrong, it's messed up, I've gotta redo it. Yeah. You know, so in that similar kind of I like that. Yeah. You know, we were coming together to have those well to some extent. It's it's like I love that example 'cause like we were building a family. Yeah. And there's ways in which maybe we we put up the wall and it was funky or we

Patch that hole and like yeah. And so like as we're building a family. And so then then it became kind of like you're saying, we could get, you know, look at the home improvement product and get mad about them or see them as a way to come together, right? Like, cool, we get to fix up this house together. And that's how I started seeing raising our kids. Was like, not only is this gonna be something that's gonna strengthen our relationship, not only is it gonna help us grow as individuals, but actually by the end, we're gonna be just better human beings all together because those kids

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:59.042)
The kids are bringing to light skills that we want to be able to do this life with our friends and do this life as professionals and how we help other families. Yeah. And I it allowed for us to each also do it our own style. You know, I know we had a lot of conversations about that. Cause you weren't gonna look like me in the nurturing department, how that looked when you intervened with kids versus versus and I wasn't gonna look like you. Yeah. to me a real easy example is I

play with our kids, but I'm not as playful in my interventions. I usually move in with a lot of compassion for how they're feeling and a lot of, this is how you feel and this is how we cope. And I move in more with a lot of, I would say like kind of nurturing spaces. And you were really quick to come up with some playful way to get something done and use a lot of play in your interventions with them. So if they were having a hard moment, didn't want to go to bed, I would use play, but not like you.

You would take it to next the level of using play to help them switch gears and get into bed. And so it was really cool where we had this, okay, we're not going to use a get to bed or else approach. but my way of let's go read a book and snuggle together and get them to bed, and yours, hey, let's be ninjas and and creep down the hallway. You know, both got them to bed and both with this relationship skill building approach. but we both got them there and we got.

To do it in our styles. And so it was kind of fun. I would watch you in your playfulness with them, and that encouraged me to be creative in my playfulness, you know, and and I think vice versa with the nurturing. But it was really fun to see us come together, you know, and we still do this, it's still a work in progress, but kind of coming where we we can sit in our strengths and in our temperaments and in who we are as mom, dad, roles, whatever personalities, we can sit in that.

But then still kind of be going towards this similar goal set. Yeah. Well, and I think that also all those conversations and what you were saying, the big picture of that was we started to create a vision together of the kind of kids we wanted to raise. That when they left the house, these are the skills we hope they have. Yeah, we weren't like, I just want kids that are obedient or kids that are respectful. It was more like we want our kids to be fully equipped with all the skills they need to be successful, adults and humans, right?

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:22.424)
But also relationships. Yeah, I was gonna say have successful marriages, have successful friendships, all that stuff. And then it also brought to light you and I, this is the the dad I want to be. You know, this is the mom you want to be. And having that picture and that vision, then those conversations were about how we were becoming those people, you know? Yeah. Instead of us just stopping a behavior or changing something about our kids, it was about how we were being transformed through relationship with our kids.

Which was really beautiful and powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And so so this isn't it wasn't about are we doing parenting perfect? Are we doing it right? Are we getting all the right techniques? Eventually it became much more just fluid and natural in regards to is what we're doing in this moment helping build that family that we wanted to build? Is it helping us become that person we wanted to become? Yeah. So yeah, and and I think our family of origins are so much a part of that story of even just

I love this part, this thing that my mom did, the way that she, you know, you tell stories about your mom and how a great of a listener she was. And she she would just non-judgmental, let you kind of pour out, you know, whatever. And and I and and I I love I appreciate my parents even when they were they were really great at calming themselves down and approaching us from a calm state. And those kind of things were where it's like we were able to delve into that as well as all the things we wanted to change, you know, 'cause 'cause and it's not without judgment. It's like looking it's not looking back.

It's without judgment, not without non without. Yeah. Anyway, so you look back and it's like, they did that really well. And I my kids, I want them to do this same thing. I want them to look back. So it's this, let's dive in, let's pull out the pieces we want to make sure that we bring forward. Yeah. And looking at our families that way. And then if we have a response we don't like, go, huh, what's that about? Why why did I do that? Why is that important to me? What am I thinking and believing in that moment?

So it does take some time, some conversations, but and intentionality rewarding. And and like we're saying, like I think for me, just the regularity, the comfort of coming together and discussing this with you was so life-changing. And it made us, like I said, individuals better, strengthen our marriage, but also then helped us become the parents we wanted to be. Just those continual coming back. So what I hope every listener is getting from this is it wasn't necessarily us learning the right techniques, although techniques are important. It wasn't even us

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:43.991)
knowing fully what we believed about parenting. It was about understanding how to keep coming back to it in the process of growing in the skills and as people to do that in relation with each other first and then inviting our kids into that with us. So so you have a question. No we're wrapping up here. Okay, what if somebody's listening they're like, yeah, but I don't know how to get him or her to participate in these conversations. Like I'm ready to have these conversations, but they don't.

They're not doing that, you know. So how what would, you know, what are your ideas? Yeah, I mean some of it w I just say kind of what you did, because I definitely wasn't always happy to have these conversations. Yeah, I was resistant to them because typically I I frame them as you're gonna tell me how I'm messing up and doing it wrong. And there was a lot of shame there. Like I said, after trying to feed Abby that one time, felt like a moron, felt completely incompetent, right? But you I I I I would say what you started helping me do is realizing the power.

I had and you weren't focused on the power to disrupt and destroy and mess up, right? and I I give an example in our interview with Eli at her podcast where we'd come home and the kids would be

somewhat in disarray like they'd be around like they're making noise. We had little kids and so sometimes they were upset at 7 30 at night and sometimes there were still toys out. So I'm sure you're all shocked. But he would come home to the My expectation was it was all gonna be perfectly put away. Yes, exactly. And then I then you would tell me, Kyle, many times they're doing just fine. Like we're just playing. And then they get nervous hearing you come home and you you kept saying I'm not saying this as a bad thing. It's just I want you to know

you have an impact. If you come home, you can help disrupt or you can help also calm it down, right? So if you come home and you're ready and you you don't believe everything has to be all perfect when you come home, then you can just get on the ground, play with them for a minute, and that will help them calm down, be ready for bed. And I started thinking about that. Shame immediately said, she's blaming me. She's saying it's my fault, you kidding? It's not my fault. I've been at work all day, right? But instead it was like, No, I could come home. What am I doing to prepare myself to see them and to help create the home I want? So

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:53.837)
I think just through ongoing conversations of you not not picking on the parts of how I'm competent, how I was failing, but instead believing that I could have this relationship with the kids that you knew deep down I actually wanted. Right. And you And you you brought value. Yeah. You know, and seeing the value you brought and wanting more of that value. Like And and so that was helpful. But then we know we know there's a lot of listeners who

You've been doing this. You've been consistently doing maybe there's some things you could tweak or do a little different, how you're having conversations with your spouse. but this is a lot of what we do. Like when we're helping couples get on the same page. So, Sarah, you put together a fantastic workbook that we can put in the the show notes of this that people can grab that really kind of walk through the steps of what we did to get to where we can talk about this in such comfort and such vulnerability. This really was a big pain area for us. This was early on a real concern.

for us, you know, if you heard our whole, you know, but so sometimes I've reflected on this because we get asked it a lot. There's a lot of this is a real common issue. And so I've reflected and obviously you can't make one little paperwork book encompass everything. But I've I've gone back and I've tried to think through questions or things that were helpful that kind of were some turning points for us, but other couples we've talked to. And so I've tried to put together

all of those rich pieces into something that that people can use to try to bring some motion into this and change and bring you guys together a little bit. Invite you yeah to intentionally connect and talk about so it's just something you can grab we'll put the link in the show notes and and it's just something you can grab and and work through. Yeah. and then also if you need more work, that's a loved I love to do parent coaching with couples to where we help them learn the skills

That they then are going to give their kids. And in learning that process, Sarah, I get see so many couples just go from being completely on different sides to slowly moving back together. By the time I'm finished coaching them, they are they're moving towards that same vision because we've spent time formulating it, creating it. So if that's interesting to you, please reach out to me at Kyle at Art of Raising Humans. Go check out our website, artofraisinghumans.com. You'll see a tab that says coaching, and we can even set up a Zoom call to see if you're a right fit for the program.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:12.274)
And and I'll say, I mean, one, we we've been through this ourselves. We've been through this with lots of other couples. it's very, very common. And we ourselves reached out, we didn't include it in our story today, but there were there was the we also reached out sometimes when we when we you hit that wall, you know, as a couple. And and sometimes it's just great to have someone on the outside talking. So s there was a few times we reached out and we're like, Hey, can you help us work through

This, we have kind of different perspectives on it. And it it was amazing and it would kind of get you through, you know, you kind of hit that wall, it would blast through that wall, and then we could carry that a lot further. So, so that's something we've also used ourselves. And it was beautiful when they were a little bit. That's why I love doing it with couples, because it was done for us. Yeah. So it's so great. So thank you so much for I hope you enjoyed this more kind of just open and vulnerable conversation about our journey. And I'm sure many of you listening can relate to it. I hope it was helpful and gave you some hope and some courage.

for the conversations that you're gonna have with whoever you're co-parenting with. and just we're really grateful for you taking the time to listen. Go check us out on YouTube. We're doing this all on video too. We'd love to grow our subscribers over there. And we're always doing stuff on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. Check us out there as well. So thank you so much for taking the time to listen.