Episode 210

Episode 210 Transcript:

All right, we know summer is fast approaching and that means you're gonna have a lot of time with your kids and that could be a lot of great connecting time. It could be a time for a lot of boundaries that we need to set or a lot of, you know, a lot of conflict that's gonna happen between parents and kids or siblings. And so we wanted to bring on Dr. Kim Van Dusen.

She's dropping a book this May called Parenting Through Play. And yes, we've had people on before talking about how important play is. And I know you as a parent know important play is, but we also know it's really hard to know how to do play well, but also what is the point of it? Like how can we use play as a way to set boundaries? Not only to have fun and connect, but also to set boundaries and teach our kids skills. And like, there's so many great ways to do that in a playful way.

to help your kids all the way from zero all the way up to teenage years to just be more receptive and open. So Dr. Kim, she's also called the parentologist on Instagram and all those places. She's gonna also talk about specific ways to help you do that, give you step by step ways in different situations about how you can do that this summer. So I know you're wanting to go in the summer and have a blast and you're not wanting it to be a time of just stress and over scheduling and all that stuff. And so.

This podcast is the one you're gonna want to listen to to make sure you're prepared to have a great summer of connection with your kids because some of your kids as they're older There's not many of these left, right? And we want to make sure you're able to use play as a tool to just deepen the relationship you have with your kids So take a moment sit back. Enjoy this episode. You really take some notes Get the book if you want what we'll talk about how to do that at the end and definitely if you haven't already take a moment to pause to

Kyle Wester (03:47.67)
rate, review, comment, tell us how you use play over the summer. What's some things you like to do? What are you looking forward to some love to hear from you. I'm always love to get feedback at Kyle at art of raising humans.com to hear how these podcasts are helping you. And so here we go. Get ready for the interview with Dr. Kim Van Dusen.

Kyle Wester (00:00.824)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi everyone, I'm Sarah. you know, Sarah, we have been talking lately about summer fast approaching, right? It is, yes. And our last few podcasts we did were kind of helping parents prepare for that, right? Kind of being intentional about going into the summer. And so I thought, at least my hope is, summer's gonna include a lot of playtime. Yes.

Right? I mean, intentionally, we definitely will. Yeah, you want to make some time? Yeah, to make sure you're connecting with your kids. It's not just full of just camps, camps, camps, camps, but there hopefully there may be some good camps, but we want to make sure we're connecting with our kids, right? And really playing. So I thought it'd be really great to have Dr. Kim Van Dusen on our podcast today. We want to welcome you Dr. Kim. Hello.

Dr. Kim (00:44.163)
Thank you for having me. So good to be here.

Kyle Wester (00:46.71)
Yeah, and we thought this was perfect timing, Dr. Kim, because you've got a book coming out May 5th called Parenting Through Play. And Sarah and I were mentioning before we came on here to chat with you about how we've had several people throughout the years who have had different types of play therapy type books, right? And I thought what was unique, what you were telling us that's little different about yours is you approaching parenting through the lens of play, right? So can you kind of tell us more about that? How

Dr. Kim (00:54.215)
I

Kyle Wester (01:15.694)
It's a little bit different than just focusing on play, but actually a whole philosophy about how we as parents interact with our kids in a playful way.

Dr. Kim (01:22.567)
Yeah, I would love to. This is just something I'm obviously very passionate about as a play therapist and as a mom and how I've raised my own children and how I've worked for almost 20 years now. I can't even believe it in the play therapy room with all the families and children I've worked with over the years. And yes, I found there was a void in the parenting space many years ago. growing up by way of a baby boomer who was very into you do as I say, I'm the adult, you do what you're told.

Kyle Wester (01:33.421)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (01:48.525)
Yep.

Dr. Kim (01:50.779)
If you want to cry, go to your room. know, feelings weren't validated. you know, coming into that, I feel like to a certain extent, our society, our parenting culture overcompensated by, you know, going the opposite direction. And that's where gentle parenting and conscious parenting. Right. And so I felt like there's no in-between, it seems like, you know, where you still need healthy boundaries and limits, but then also connecting through the language of a child, which is play and combining those together. And that's really where my

Kyle Wester (02:01.421)
Mm-hmm.

trying to balance it out kind of, yeah.

Dr. Kim (02:19.002)
more modern parenting philosophy, you know, style comes from. And so what I did in my book, Parenting Through Play, is I combined three evidence-based modalities, play therapy, solution-focused therapy, and positive behavior interventions and supports, which most people know as PBIS. So with those three modalities combined, again, all evidence-based modalities, is the trifecta on how to get that deeper connection, better communication, and really ultimately better behavior.

Kyle Wester (02:34.882)
Yes.

Dr. Kim (02:48.156)
from your child, which will create and cultivate a more peaceful home. So it's a win-win for the parent and the child and the entire family when parenting through this type of philosophy.

Kyle Wester (02:57.154)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. love the, the focus that I'm hearing is there, there's this need in parents. You get kind of worried. You want connection. hear a lot of that. want to have a great relationship with my child. And then how do I do that and not feel like I'm always giving into every feeling and thing that they want? How do I do boundaries? And, I hear you speaking to that and you're, when you were telling us about your book.

And I'd love for you to share just a little bit around that, because I think that's a really big one where parents are doing that TikTok of giving, you know.

My child is crying and eating this. And then how do I also hold the boundary? What, does that look like? How do you address that? How does that fit into your philosophy? Or I'm even thinking Dr. Kim on top of what Sarah's saying. I remember when we were had, our kids were very little. You know, now we've got a couple of teenagers and, and one that's going into that preteen time. when the kids are really little, I almost felt like, it was like everything I was asking them to do. I had to make it fun and make it playful. And I was like, kind of resentful of it. I was like, you know what my parents.

never did this. They just told me what to do and I had to do it. then like, but like I did find when we made it playful, it definitely got done better. It was still I just yes. Yes, yes. It does. Yes. Yep.

Dr. Kim (04:10.044)
See, that's the thing is it saves you half the time. It eliminates the power struggles and eliminates the tantrums or at least minimizes it. I mean, we're human and we're even adults. I mean, we get dysregulated and kids do too. So those things are gonna happen. mean, kids in general, you know, might have a lower frustration tolerance or even parents do because our mental loads are so vast these days. Our to-do lists are never ending. And so we do have a million responsibilities and obligations. But like you said, I mean, you literally hit the nail on the head when it comes to the message of my book is that

Kyle Wester (04:29.122)
Yeah, yep.

Dr. Kim (04:39.076)
when you make it more playful, it gets the job done and a lot easier and faster. And so, you know, in my book, I try to debunk the myth of when a parent hears the word play, that that means they have to sit on the floor and have active dialogue with their child for 30 to 60 minutes every single day. And if not, then they're not a good parent or they're not doing it right. Or, you know, they're not going to be able to connect with their child or whatever the case is. And to me, that's complete myth.

Kyle Wester (04:56.866)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (05:07.484)
My philosophy is that when you sprinkle in little playful pockets of play throughout the day in just the language you're using, the idea of how you, like I said, parent when it comes to chores, homework, cleaning up toys, whatever the case is, that when you do that, you're sprinkling in that playfulness throughout the day, not just in one big lump sum. And so yes, there's a time and place for that. And absolutely play with your kids and play with them often.

However, if you generally just have this playful banter and language that you use with them on a regular basis, the more you do it, the more second nature will become. And that will cultivate that deeper connection and the better behavior just by doing that, not necessarily just sitting down on floor and playing with them.

Kyle Wester (05:53.938)
Can you speak to this myth? as you're talking to another myth popped up in mind that I firmly believed or at least in these moments of stress, I would believe it is.

You can't make everything fun. know, like some things just need to get done. And so like it doesn't always, and even though I would say, yeah, but Kyle, they do seem to like do it better. They seem to do it more efficiently when it is fun. It doesn't matter. Sometimes they just need to learn how to just do it, whether it sucks or not. So like, can you, can you speak to that myth? Cause I know I'm sure there's a lot of dads and moms who are thinking that too of like, yeah, I wish life could always be fun and a lot of play. would get a lot of but it just can't be. And I'm trying to prepare my kids for real life.

Dr. Kim (06:33.946)
Right, 100%, 100%, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. And so what I want to say to that is that's why in my book, also talk about, there's a whole chapter on how to get your kids to listen and cooperate, how to set healthy limits and effective boundaries. I talk about choosing your own outcome adventure, an outcome to being responsible and accountable for the behavior that they're having. Always validate the emotion.

and hold space for that. But then you also want to hold them accountable for the behavior. And we can go into that later. I talk about, you know, them, you know, teaching them empathy, you know, teaching them how to make a repair role modeling those things for them. But I also have a whole chapter on, I call them do-overs and, you know, giving choices. And so if they are misbehaving, if they are defiantly not doing what you're asking them to do after the hundredth time you've asked them, then you give them the choice and you say, okay, here's the deal.

Kyle Wester (07:06.254)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (07:27.82)
you either let's say they're jumping on the couch, know, jumping on the couch isn't safe. Go back to the rule. Don't blame it on yourself and have them be held accountable for your emotions. I hear a lot of parents say over the years, that hurts mommy's feelings. Don't jump on the couch. Like you're making me so sad. And you know, that's that's kind of a no-no in my book. But right. But you give them the choice and you say, OK, jumping on the couch isn't safe. That's not that's one of our house rules. You just can't jump on the couch.

Kyle Wester (07:30.19)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (07:36.725)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. agree. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (07:52.141)
Yeah.

Dr. Kim (07:53.628)
or you're going to break it or whatever reason you want to give them. You always have to give them the why, right? And then once you do that and you say, okay, I'm going to give you a minute to make your own choice, empower them, let them feel like they have some power and control over the situation. And then say, if you continue to jump on the couch, the natural outcome might be that you have to come in the kitchen with me. I call them time-ins, give them a responsibility to do with them so you're not just sitting into the room being isolated.

Kyle Wester (07:55.532)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (08:16.878)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kim (08:21.051)
But you know, this is your natural consequence or natural outcome really is the word I use in my book. And then, or if you know, if you stop jumping on the couch, then let's go get a snack and go play a board game or whatever the case may be. So no, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. There is have to be like those accountability. And I talked about in the book of how to go about doing that. So you don't get more power struggles. You don't get more defiance when it comes down to, cause they're going to hold their ground. They're kids, their, their brains are still developing and they.

Kyle Wester (08:30.99)
yeah yeah yes

Dr. Kim (08:48.353)
are, you know, one of their jobs is to push those boundaries to see what, how life works. And so, you know, allowing that space for that negotiation, that compromise together, almost like co-regulation, but you're co-deciding, you know, what these things are gonna look like, it really makes your job much easier. You know, there are gonna be times when it comes to safety and health.

Kyle Wester (08:51.618)
Yes.

Dr. Kim (09:10.395)
100%, if that's a no, that's a big hard no. If they ask to eat the whole giant chocolate cake, you're not gonna negotiate and compromise on that. You might say, about a piece, but you know, right? Or if they wanna run out in the middle of the street, you when a car is coming, I mean, you absolutely have to put your feet down when you need to and when it absolutely is necessary. But if there's an opportunity for that choice to take place, it really can be a game changer for parents.

Kyle Wester (09:13.101)
Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

Kyle Wester (09:32.92)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Cause I, I heard it in all of that. Okay. You're honoring what the kid, where the kids at, what they're feeling. You've said the empathy, which we've heard. And then you move into this, Hey, but we've got this structure. We've got these things that we need to do to keep safety, to take care of our things and take care of ourselves. And then you're bringing them into that process. They understand why you're setting that there and, and you're bringing them in that.

process of what's going to happen next. Let's build that brain development, right? Let's look, if I keep doing this, what's the next thing? What are these next steps? I want to ask, and I told you was going to ask this, okay, so we've got this. What if my kid has really, really big feelings or what if they, a lot of people, sometimes it's like, my kid is that extra thing going on. And there's so many things I feel like can't even list them.

but would this work with them or can you speak to that kind of a child that's just hard and we love them and they present some extra things that we've got to think about? Yeah, that's good.

Dr. Kim (10:40.751)
Yes, absolutely. And you know, and I like to say this, and I've said this for years, even in my clinical practice, is that my techniques, interventions that I have created in this book will work for the everyday parent, for most children. There are some children that need a higher level of care, a higher level of intervention, let's say. so there are some things that will work with kids with sensory-seeking.

challenges, if there's a sensory seeking or sensory avoidant, if they're neurodivergent. You know, I worked in a clinic for about four years, just up until a couple years ago, that worked exclusively with the autism community. And so I've worked and used a lot of these skills with that community and that population. And again, you know, I have a whole chapter in my book about how to, with maybe very, very quick how to prompts.

on if your child has sensory seeking, do A, B, C, or D. And you can flip right to that page or that chapter. If your child has sensory avoidant, you can try A, B, C, or D. I had a client years ago who she was telling me how her daughter just would not go to bed. No matter what she did, she just could not fall asleep. She couldn't stay asleep. Her brain was just very active, which I saw a lot, especially with the children I worked with, even with ADD, ADHD, and so forth.

So she kept saying, we know we've tried all the things. We've tried deep breathing. We've tried, you know, massages and all these things that I think most people, maybe more typical children might think are relaxing. We think, we want to relax. Let's go get a pedicure, go to the spa or something like that. But if you're a child that is not, that those techniques don't work for, then, so what I suggested to this client, said, okay, that's the wrong thing because her sensory levels need more stimulation.

Kyle Wester (12:04.321)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (12:11.82)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (12:30.221)
Yeah.

Dr. Kim (12:30.745)
So I said, don't do the deep massages, don't do the deep breathing, that's gonna make it worse. What she needs is to do like 100 jumping jacks before bed, or what she needs is to jump on a trampoline, or she needs to activate her senses. And then once that's fulfilled, then she'll be able to fall asleep. And so we completely just changed the narrative on that. And it sounds counterintuitive, but it worked. And then she was able to almost get hyper before bed and then she crashed. And so...

Kyle Wester (12:38.626)
Yeah, yep.

Kyle Wester (12:50.126)
Yeah

Kyle Wester (12:56.364)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (12:57.627)
I talk about that in my book of how to do that. So yes, my techniques and interventions should work, like I said, for the everyday parent. They're meant for most children, neurodivergent or neurotypical, in the 3 to 10 age range for the most part.

Kyle Wester (13:12.866)
Yeah, I love that, because I'm thinking that what play did for me too, kind of like in that example you gave, was I think my first inclination due to, like you said, being raised the way I was, most of us were raised in homes where resistance was the means by which we change behavior. So like the parents would see behavior they didn't like and they would just resist that behavior until that behavior relented, right? And so my default in these times of stress, in times of like when I was in a rush or I just hadn't slept

well, whatever it might be, was to resist my kids behavior, you know? But I think what's great about any kind of, when you buy into the philosophy of play and how powerful it is as a parent, it started to change me to where I didn't see the behavior as needing to be resisted. Instead, it just needed to be listened to.

It just needed to be guided. And so what that led to, you know, we, we, we've homeschooled our kids and, and when they were really little, especially our oldest who has big, big feelings when she was little, she did not like that transition from playing in the morning to then let's do school. And I didn't feel all that competent as a homeschool parents who was trying to teach my kids. I just wanted them to be like, yes, dad, let's do it. And I want them to be like, and so any kind of resistance they came back actually

I felt more insecure and I felt more kind of incompetent. So I would get more upset, right? And be like, come on, let's just do it. But then what I found was really cool, Dr. Kim was doing something like you said, where I would turn on some music. It was from a movie I liked. It was very like loud and rambunctious. was like, you know, didn't have words, but it was like very active and it was three minutes, 15 minutes, three minutes, 15 seconds long. And I told my daughter, Hey, for three minutes, 15 seconds, you get to wrestle me as much as you want.

Just come at me with everything you've got. But as soon as that song's over, we're gonna lay down, take some deep breaths and do school. And that worked so well. She loved that time. We probably did that every day for months. And she was like, dad, are we doing the music again? Like the louder it was, the more active it was. And so I just, know, if you could speak to that, that I just think it's such a powerful concept that like you said, we didn't see that. Like I actually, I love my parents, but I don't remember playing with them all the

Dr. Kim (15:17.345)
Hahaha!

Kyle Wester (15:31.212)
You know, they weren't very playful. My mom could be playful. My dad wasn't very good at that. But it was like, I never really saw that. So it almost seems foreign. It seems weird. But as I've embraced that kind of thinking, I became much less resistant to them and more accepting of them. And therefore I'm able to be more effective in guiding it.

Dr. Kim (15:51.811)
Absolutely. So it sounds like you already read my book because I have an intervention in my book that I use with one of those colorful sand timers. And you can get them on Amazon or some, you know, your store of choice for less than probably $6 or like a dollar each, you know, from 30 seconds to a 10 minute interval. And in the book, I have a little chapter on taming tantrums and managing meltdowns and, you know, big feelings, if you will.

Kyle Wester (16:12.63)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Dr. Kim (16:14.962)
And I tell, know, they say, what do I do with my child's, you know, in this tantrum? And like I said, it activates our nervous system as parents, and then it just escalates because then we get escalated, then the child gets escalated and just, you know, keeps going on like a domino effect. And so I say, okay, it's a strategic intervention, a therapeutic strategic intervention where I say, take the timer, have them see it because a of kids need that visual confirmation that you're not lying on the time because they can't tell time yet. So if they see it, it's

Kyle Wester (16:36.812)
Yes, that's true. And probably because you have in the past. Probably because you have a line about this time in the past.

Dr. Kim (16:41.228)
Right, right, right. Two more minutes and it's like 30 seconds goes by. So you take the timer and you tell them, know, have at it, have your, have you do whatever you need to do. Kick on the floor, cry, scream, you know, punch a pillow, kick the pillow, you know, whatever it is, like they can basically have this tantrum or this meltdown for however long your timer lasts. Five minutes is usually what I say would work best for most children.

Kyle Wester (17:03.948)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (17:07.706)
And once the timer's up, then we get to go play a board game or then we get to go whatever outside and take a walk, whatever the case may be. And you let them know. Usually the kids don't even need that long. Usually about about two minutes, they kind of yell and scream. They're like, OK, I'm done. Let's go. Let's move on. You know, but if you don't and you said you're resistant to that, then it might last longer because you're both escalated and, your your cortisol levels are so high by that point that it just makes it worse. But if you, like you said, kind of accept it and kind of.

Kyle Wester (17:26.796)
Yeah. Yes.

Dr. Kim (17:34.874)
give into it and you're prepared. You can't just wing it in those moments. As parents, I feel like I talk about that in the book. You just can't wing it. You have to be prepared. So it takes a little front loading, a little like practice, a little get you getting used to. But once you do it, again, it comes second nature. And so that's just one intervention I talk about in the book. But my longest chapter is about self-regulation, emotional regulation for the parent. And I have tips on how parents can become regulated and come back to baseline. And then I have a whole section on how parents can help their children come back to baseline.

Kyle Wester (17:37.965)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Wester (17:53.304)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kim (18:03.451)
when it comes when their nervous system is activated and they go into fight or flight mode or whatever the case may be. And so I talk about that and give all sorts of reasons and ways to do that. But one of the, it's actually in my introduction in the book, I talk about a scenario when my son was in kindergarten and it was after school and all the parents come for pickup and they were all standing outside playing and.

You know, like you said, when they're in the middle of a preferred activity, it's really hard to transition them out to, let's say, a non-preferred activity or to leave. And I have a whole section on transitions in the book too and ways to make that playful and fun to get them to leave the park or whatever it is you're doing. And my son just did not want to leave. And he's five, you know, he's with his friends. I don't blame him. And so I tried, usually what parents typically try, I tried to bribe them. Hey, if we leave right now, let's go to Starbucks and get a K-pop, right?

Kyle Wester (18:31.704)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (18:48.942)
That's right. Yes. Yes.

Dr. Kim (18:51.116)
It didn't work. He didn't want the cake pop. He always wants the cake pop, but it didn't work. So then I said, okay, if you don't come now, you know, no iPad for the rest of the day or whatever it is that you want to take away. Again, the better the punishment, the better, you know, the better, because that's going to hurt the most. Right. And that didn't work. He didn't even care about that. He's like, I don't care about the iPad. Like, I just want to keep playing with my friends. I said, okay. So I, know, and the parents are watching me because they know what I do for a living. And they're like, you're supposed to be this parenting expert play therapist. Like, and your kid's not behaving. Like, what's wrong with you?

Kyle Wester (18:58.862)
Yes of course yes yeah yeah yes yes yeah yeah yeah exactly

Dr. Kim (19:19.012)
So I felt the pressure and know, as I feel like a lot of parents feel like in that moment and I tried these things, I even tried to pick him up at one point, he, you know, didn't really kick or anything. He just kind of like wrestled out of me and you know, I'm like, okay, well that's not even working. So I just took a deep breath and I paused for him because if we're not regulated, we will not be able to parent in a play-based way. You just won't, because you can't think of that creative outside of the box things, right? So at that moment I said, okay, you know, put your play therapist hat on. And so all of a sudden I just yelled.

Kyle Wester (19:20.482)
Yeah, of course. Yep.

Kyle Wester (19:35.82)
Nope, exactly. You can't, no.

Dr. Kim (19:47.178)
choo choo, the train is coming. And he stopped in his tracks and he said, what, there's a train? I was like, yeah, it's coming around the corner. So I told the moms to watch them because we're all friends. I said, just watch them for a second. I'm go get my car. So I got in my car. I came back around to this area where they are all were standing. I put the window down and I yelled again, all aboard the train's leaving. He got in the car so fast that I thought, my gosh. And then he asked for it. Like your daughter with the song.

Kyle Wester (19:50.466)
Yeah.

Yeah

Kyle Wester (20:10.968)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (20:13.153)
He asked for it day after day after day, he can the train come pick me up from school again today? And I never had that problem of resistance and that power struggle again. And it was just that little modification in the language I used and the technique that I used to lure him to leave this preferred activity. And so sometimes it just takes just something little to make a big difference in that parent and that child's life.

Kyle Wester (20:32.102)
Yeah, that's that's one every parent has a problem with right when you're leaving the playground the school the swimming pool is coming up this summer and something that that we started doing dr. Kim when the kids were little that worked just like you were saying that was almost similar to that was just having the expectation that when it's time to go right we'll give you a heads up five minutes one minute whatever it is and then in that last minute I want you to pick the last thing that you want to do and I want you to do it and tell me about it because I want to see you do it

And I want to see that and I want to like be excited for you. And so it's, that worked fantastic. Like once we implemented that to her, Hey guys, we've got one more minute. What's that last thing you're doing? And then each of our three kids picked the last thing. Like I'm going to jump and do this or go down that slide and do that. That's awesome. Do it. And let's all watch them do it. Great. And then come over to me. And it was like, that was so cool where that got to be the ritual where the kids, if I forgot it, if I was like, Hey, it's time to go. Wait, you didn't ask for our last thing. And then like,

Dr. Kim (21:29.495)
Yeah, they'll remind you.

Kyle Wester (21:31.052)
Yeah, and the reason why we did that, the philosophy on that was like, kids love to be seen, they want that connection, they want me to notice them, so I'm gonna give them the opportunity to get my undivided attention, and I'm gonna see that, and that will be the thing that they want more than staying longer, you know? And so just those kind of little things, like I said, going back to my own growth as a human being, it started rewiring my brain to not see their resistance as something like a bad thing.

Dr. Kim (21:47.118)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (21:59.638)
It's just, they're saying, I need help. Could you make it playful? Cause then it's easier for me to make that transition. Yeah. Well, I noticed that in your story, you're create, you came to that creative space when you just took a breath. Yeah, that's good. And that's something I always have to remember. Cause when you have those eyes on you, can feel real. This is an emergency. and you feel that.

Dr. Kim (22:07.907)
Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Wester (22:25.23)
pressure. I don't care if it's you're in the grocery store and your child's melting down because they want that toy or, know, I think we all as parents can relate to those moments and just going, okay, take a breath, you know, and then that creativity came to you and it wasn't you didn't have it wasn't some huge production. didn't have to act like a giraffe. It was something that I think, wow, that was that was actually kind of simple, which is encouraging because play and thinking of play to me.

Dr. Kim (22:44.089)
Hahaha

Kyle Wester (22:53.398)
I feel like it can be intimidating for parents to think, I've to come up with some really fun, exciting, magical thing to help my child. And, I, and I think that it discourages parents. I'm not going to creative. I'm not that whatever. Yeah. I'm not used to playing. do I? And so, so, cause you, just shared that moment. I loved it. And I thought how, just, what are some encouraging words or what do you say to parents who feel like, but I don't know how to play and what do I do as a parent?

Yeah.

Dr. Kim (23:23.565)
Yeah, and I think that's been something that I've done in my private practice again for years is kind of reteaching parents that it's okay to play, especially as an adult, you know, or, you know, to let go of their inhibitions and anxiety around play. Because I think our society gives us messages as adults that it's not, it's immature to play or it's, you know, they're being judged for playing or if they, if they look silly or playful, then like, that, that person never grew up or that person is, you know, whatever it is judged in that way. And I think.

Kyle Wester (23:31.213)
you

Kyle Wester (23:42.368)
Mmm, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (23:48.834)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (23:52.538)
you lot of times parents do forget how to play because again, you're told to, you know, as you get older, you need to be more autonomous and have agency and be more mature. And, um, and it's even as a parent, even if it was a young child, it still looked as maybe unacceptable. And I think that's my biggest, um, challenge, let's say, uh, with parents that are resistant to play or feel like they can't do it because they write it off before they even try it. Um, or they don't value it. Maybe they didn't grow up with it. Like you said, and you know, they just think, well, that's not going to work. That's kind of hogwash. That's,

Kyle Wester (23:55.394)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Wester (24:00.813)
Yeah.

Dr. Kim (24:22.361)
kids need rules and boundaries and things, which they do, and they do thrive on that. And even with getting my books sold, of having parents say, yeah, I value play enough to give it a try. If you think it's really gonna work, then let's do this, just show me the way. But it is true, and I think once parents let go of that, and one, if they try and realize how much it actually does work and how simple it actually is, again,

Kyle Wester (24:36.642)
Yeah.

Dr. Kim (24:50.975)
not these long, drawn out interventions, you know, very quick, just these little, like I said, just even just the words you use. know, for example, you know, when you when you're at meal time and your child's resisting the meals that they're eating, you know, it's just take the fork away and give them a little pair of tongs, have them eat with their tongs. So simple. takes two minutes and you'll probably get, again, less tantrums as power struggles, defiance. But it's just like those little modifications that you need to make. Again, it doesn't have to be, you know, and you don't have to look silly doing that. They're the ones probably look silly, you know, using the tongs, but they'll like it.

Kyle Wester (25:06.478)
Yes, yes, yes true. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (25:20.895)
And you don't have to, like you said, hop on one foot like a dropper or like a bunny or whatever it is. So I think just, you know, if once a parent realizes that it works and they realize how much peaceful their home is and how much better their connections with their child, then I think the buy-in is there. But I think getting them to buy-in is still one of my biggest challenges of saying, you know, this is an effective way to parent and it's an evidence-based effective way to parent.

Kyle Wester (25:24.673)
Yes.

Dr. Kim (25:46.867)
And, but that one I'm still working on because it's kind of a work in progress because I have had some pushback. If parents get it, they're all in and they know it works. But getting the pushback from some parents, just writing it off, even just from the title alone, they're like, plays in the title. I'm not buying that book, you know? But I promise it's life-changing. If parents give it a try, I think it's really going to change, change the world.

Kyle Wester (25:54.732)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (26:00.12)
Yes. That's right. That's right. Yes.

Kyle Wester (26:09.986)
And if they, and I think I personally, I remember when I worked with families and play therapy, I would teach them some play. And I think books like yours are really helpful because where you feel like I don't have the creative ideas, that's fine. That's your starting point. Right? That's good you read the books. Cause then it's like, okay, I'm going to borrow your ideas because, and then from there I will have my own creative twist on it.

Dr. Kim (26:26.104)
I give them all to them. I literally hand them some on a plate. I'm like, here you go.

Kyle Wester (26:37.336)
But to start with, I just borrow your ideas. They're right there in the book. So I think that encourages. I think you spoke to it though, Kim, where you were talking about how, lots of parents, and we talk about this a lot when we're coaching parents, is they live in a dichotomous world. Where either I'm in charge or the kid's in charge. So it's either like, you're being really serious or you're being like super silly. And like, you're not, there's no boundaries there. we're all like, so you'll hear even like sometimes moms or dads were complaining about their spouse and be like,

Dr. Kim (26:41.186)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (27:05.995)
He just, he just always silly. He's not really setting any boundaries with the kids. And so they feel like they've got to be super serious and later. And, but, but there's this third way. And you kind of spoke about this. There's, there's a third way. It doesn't have to be that way that actually what I've noticed, I'm sure you have too, in working with kids, when you can just relax and just be yourself. And sometimes that is just being silly. And it's just like, it's actually so freeing to the kid and the kid actually feels safe. The kid feels safe because they feel like

Dr. Kim (27:33.122)
See, that's, yes. So I want to stop on, or if I could stop on that because, you know, in the play therapy room, like the very first thing they teach you in your very first play therapy class is create a sense of trust and safety with your client before you proceed. And that's exactly what I'm bringing home in the message between parent and child. When you have that foundation of the safety and the trust and the playfulness and the connection, then when you do need to set a boundary, when you do need to set that limit, or when you do need to say, that's not okay,

Kyle Wester (27:35.596)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (28:00.567)
we need to figure out a way to not do this again next time because you're not being respectful, responsible, safe, whatever the case may be, then they're more likely to respect you and follow you in that realm without using yelling, without using punishment, whatever the case may be, because you've already set that foundation up by the playful safety and trust. Does that make sense? So I just wanted to point that out because I really believe wholeheartedly in that part.

Kyle Wester (28:20.684)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so many times we, cause we don't come from that place. We have so many more just power struggles with our kids. What you just said is so brilliant and wonderful. And right there is like, just get that, just listen to that. Well, even when I was a school counselor, part of what I was supposed to do was talk to kindergartners, you know, 20 to 25 of them for about 40 minutes about feelings. And sometimes that was a very hard thing to do. And I tried to be the serious teacher who would be like, stop doing that. You listen. Right. And then

I realized the magic happened where one time I was gonna do something with Play-Doh and I asked one of the kids to hand me some Play-Doh and then I said, can you hand me another container? And as the kid was getting, I was throwing this Play-Doh up in the air and I just kept throwing up and catching it. And the kids were like, wow, that is cool. And then they said, can you do that with your eyes closed? And I said, I don't know, I've never tried. So then I threw it up with my eyes and it hit me in the head and the kids thought that was so funny. And I had...

no behavior problems that day. Like it was so easy, cause the kids were like, he's funny. He like, I want to listen to this guy. And I was like, wow, that actually felt better to me too. Like I actually thought that whole 40 minutes went by. It was much more enjoyable because I wasn't trying to control and resist all of them. I was just being myself. I was controlling myself. And then I was just inviting them in to learning in a fun way.

Dr. Kim (29:36.853)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (29:52.098)
And I think sometimes that's actually harder to do simply because we don't let ourselves be creative like that. just, we have been taught to just shut up and do it, just buckle down and get it done. And almost like if you don't like it, you're gonna learn better, which is just not true. Like it's through the fun, like really good teachers know when you make it enjoyable, you remember it, you know, it sticks with you. And I think that's what I want parents to hear from what you're saying is when you ask them to do these things and you do...

Dr. Kim (30:11.589)
Exactly.

Kyle Wester (30:19.488)
make it in a fun, playful way. The connection's there, therefore there's less resistance, but there's also more learning. And the kid now would be more likely to learn that habit that you're wanting them to get.

Dr. Kim (30:30.38)
Yes, exactly. And I even talk about how when a parent gives a directive, you know, let's say they're yelling at them and saying, basically you do as I told them, they don't give the child a voice, they don't let them feel seen, heard and loved, then the two things are most likely going to happen. One, there's going to be even more defiance and pushback because they're going to, you know, their nervous system is going to be so out of control that they are going to go into fight or fight mode and they're going to fight back or they're going to withdraw and, you know, completely just disengage.

Kyle Wester (30:50.7)
Yes, Yeah.

Dr. Kim (30:57.752)
Either way, they're not going to be compliant and they're not going to be listening to their parent because they don't, you know, it may look like it works in the moment because it's most like a fear or scare tactic, but long-term it actually does a lot of damage to their mental health, to the relationship itself. It's going to sever that a little bit. And, you know, it's just, it's not as, it's not as an effective way to parent as the one is the kind that I talk about in my book and the one that you just mentioned and, you know, creating that connection through play. And then you ask for, like I said, you set those boundaries and limits and it's a win-win for everybody.

Kyle Wester (31:04.034)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Wester (31:27.394)
But once again, not only were they more likely to do it, but they're more likely to learn it, learn the skill rather than just doing it. So it's like, is a win, win, win, win that goes, continues to go through. And then once again, it helped me as a dad to enjoy parenting so much more because I wasn't taking myself so seriously.

Dr. Kim (31:31.703)
Yes.

Kyle Wester (31:46.318)
and I can be a serious person, but actually most of the time with your kids, you don't need to be. You can be fun and playful. they actually, I'm like, know we talked about before we got on with you, what age is this perfect for? And I'm thinking like, like teenagers want that. know, like, I mean, teenagers want you to occasionally just walk by, grab them and like tickle them and rough house with them. And they like, they miss that stuff because life is so serious.

And they feel so anxious about growing up in this world and all the scary decisions. And they want to be able to laugh with you and play with you. And so if you aren't doing it when they're young, it's going to be almost impossible to do it when they're grown. And that's why you want to get into the habit of doing it early, because this is a natural part of it, even into adulthood that you can still play around. know me and my brother are adults. And the best way we connected by being stupid with each other and like playing around, right? And it's not talking about at times serious things, but it's mostly through being silly and joking with each other.

Dr. Kim (32:25.942)
Yes.

Dr. Kim (32:36.15)
Hey!

Kyle Wester (32:42.54)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Kim (32:42.581)
Yes, or even as a couple, you know, in your partner relationships and in spousal relationships. I mean, there needs to be an element of playfulness, too, to keep the marriage fun and alive. You know, it can't all be about paying the bills and, you know, who's going to cook dinner tonight, who's going to do this and that. There's too much stress in the world, you know, for that. So you do need that lightheartedness. And I'm hoping that's book number two. So, you know, you can voucher me because you're not the only person that's asked for that.

Kyle Wester (32:54.595)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (33:03.362)
Yes. that'd be cool. Yes. Well, yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking if your marriage doesn't have that, it's not going to last that long. Like it just isn't. It's too hard. It's too hard to not have fun in it. Right. It kind of like when Sarah and I, we've done some trips on different teams and one of the team leaders I had, that's what he said. Something like we had heard, you know, sometimes you hear the family or the group that prays together stays together, but he changed it to the family that plays together, stays together.

And I thought that actually is, I really resonated with that. Because I'm like, families that really are safe with each other, they play together. They laugh a lot, they joke a lot, they enjoy each other's presence, not just get crap done.

Dr. Kim (33:48.096)
Yeah, and it doesn't stop in the teen years. Again, I'm hoping that's going to be in book two because the tweens and the teens, really because they're they're already like going in that autonomous route, you know, right, where they're maybe starting to drive. They're not as home as much. And so that connection piece becomes really vital in those years, you know, just as much as they do when they're a toddler. But it may be even worse. And so setting that foundation when it really is very important and continuing it through those years, you know, put on and put on some song and have like a little impromptu dance party, you know.

Kyle Wester (33:58.35)
Yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:04.802)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:15.412)
Exactly. Yes.

Dr. Kim (34:17.387)
build some Legos together, play a board game, play a card game, run through the sprinklers, honestly. mean, just there's so many things you can do to connect with an older child that is really imperative at that age. So, yes.

Kyle Wester (34:23.5)
Yes! Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Wester (34:30.508)
And they eat it up. They love it. Yeah. Well, so in wrapping up our talk, so Dr. Kim, the parentologist, where can our community find more about you?

Dr. Kim (34:41.279)
I would say the first place to look is my website, theparentologist.com. I have my blogs on there. I have links to my podcast, to my book. The book's going to be available wherever books are sold. It's on pre-order until May 5th then after May 5th, it's out in the world. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, there's a bunch of links on my website. I'm most active on Instagram. My handle is at theparentologist on most platforms.

Kyle Wester (34:59.203)
Yeah.

Dr. Kim (35:10.391)
But primarily, like I said, I'm on Instagram there and yeah, I'd love to be connected.

Kyle Wester (35:15.468)
Yeah, that'd be great. So if you want to know more about the power of parenting through play, definitely check that out. Get that book. And so you can start reading that before the summer. She's sending out perfect timing for you to read it. And then intentionally, I'm just telling you, that's what your kids are wanting. Your kids are wanting to laugh and play with you this summer. They're not just wanting to get a bunch of stuff done. And what you'll find is more stuff gets done.

because you end up laughing and playing together. At least the important stuff, I think, gets done. So thank you so much Dr. Kim for being with us. It's so great to have you on as a guest. And I know you're speaking soon at the Mom 2.0 conference, so we hope that goes well for you as well and that a lot of parents are helped through that and really hoping for success for your book. So thank you for being on with us.

Dr. Kim (35:55.649)
Thank you for having me.