Episode 222

Kyle and Sara Wester (00:01.061)
Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hey everyone. I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, something that we're kind of currently getting a chance to enjoy is watching our kids become teenagers. And something that we've talked about before in the podcast that we're very intentional about is kind of trying to make moments that are very pivotal, that are memorable, right? Yeah. And notice the moments that are happening. Yeah, and and like the thinking these moments kind of are transformational in the

The men and women that our kids are going to become, right? And so we were really excited when Maggie Dent, who, if you have not checked out that episode, go back a few weeks. That was a great episode with Maggie Dent, but she said, You like that stuff? Well, you got to talk to my friend. I said, Who's your friend? And she said, You've got to meet Dr. Arna Rubinstein. And he is like the guru when it comes to rites of passage, right? So we want to welcome Dr. Rubenstein. Welcome to the podcast.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (00:57.4)
Thank you. Very nice to be here. G'day everybody.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:00.933)
Could you tell us, I mean, what why are rites of passage important for our kids? Like how come you're so passionate about that stuff?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (01:08.132)
my gosh, because at the end of the day, I want our kids to become healthy adults with a sense of purpose, with a vision, with a healthy support network, and people who are going to contribute to the community. And indigenous and traditional communities have been creating rites of passage for tens of thousands of years. And interestingly, they all do it in a similar way. And

You know, it's probably easier to see the importance of rites of passage if we look at what happens if we don't have rites of passage. And the danger is if we don't create that transition, that adults remain, they're in an adult body, but their their mind, their psyche is still that of a child or an adolescent. And they still think it's all about them. They still think they're the center of the universe. They still want as much power as they can get. Instead of realizing that we're all part of a community.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:41.237)
Mm, that's cool.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:48.538)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (01:53.295)
Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (02:04.034)
And then if we have more power, it means we can do more good and you know, all the other things that go with being a healthy adult. And and I have a great concern that by not creating healthy rights of passage for our children, we are actually living in an adolescent society.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:20.333)
Hmm, yeah, a very immature society. Yeah. So how how does how do rites of passage help with that? Why are they significant to that process?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (02:23.736)
Correct.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (02:30.829)
Well

Sure. A rite of passage is a transformational event. And the way I look at it, that there's a there's a huge difference between a child and an adult. And we want children to have the mindset of a child. And for a child, they are the center of the universe. It is all about them. They do want a mother to do everything for them. They do want a father to be, you know, a hero figure. if they don't get what they want, they have a temper tantrum.

Kyle and Sara Wester (02:50.797)
Mm-hmm.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (03:02.982)
they think they're gonna live forever. So all of those are normal attributes of a child. But if we end up with adults who still think they're the center of the universe and still want, you know, a mother to do everything for them and they don't get what they want, they they have a temper tantrum, all that stuff, it doesn't work. And so we're looking to to create that transformation of the mindset of the psyche from how a child thinks.

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:05.632)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (03:31.544)
To how an adult thinks, where an adult is genuinely community oriented and understands that they have important gifts to offer to the community and knows, you know, as an adult, we we need to know that we're not gonna live forever. We need to be able to stand with our emotions. And as a man, I I don't I don't want to be marrying a mother. You know, I wanna have a a a partner to have a genuine relationship with. So

Kyle and Sara Wester (03:55.396)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (04:01.854)
my s work has been around first of all looking at how all the indigenous communities did it, and then working out how we can bring that into a modern context and do it in an appropriate way. Because we're not trying to recreate what happened in the jungle 500 years ago or you know, and and I absolutely believe we can. And and the research that was done over 150 years ago showed that.

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:19.661)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (04:30.208)
All the indigenous communities would would at a certain time take the children away, do a transformational process, and then bring them back and integrate them back into the community as adults. And I might actually jump ahead and just say: my first profession was as a doctor. I was a family doctor, and then I was in emergency medicine for 15 years. And I have a great concern with what I'm seeing in.

Kyle and Sara Wester (04:50.691)
Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (04:59.126)
young adults and teenagers, the mental health issues, the problems, the breakdown of family relationships, all sorts of things. So we've done a lot of work looking at what what do young people need to thrive? And so some of the key things that we've come up with is that for young people to thrive, they need to have a healthy sense of belonging. It's the most important thing to them. And if they can't find a healthy place to belong, they would rather belong in an unhealthy place

Than be on their own. So if the kids over there doing drugs or bullying other kids or skipping school, they'd rather belong to them than just be on their own. That's the first thing. The second is they need to feel safe and not only physically safe, but safe to be themselves and safe to also make mistakes and know that that's something that they can learn from. The third is they need to be seen. Like all of our children are different. You have three children. I have no doubt that.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:31.032)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:37.347)
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:49.155)
Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (05:57.145)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (05:58.154)
Every single one of them is different. And w we need to see them for who they are rather than have them thinking that what they're seeing on social media is how they have to be or they've got a major problem. And then the fourth thing that they need is to be loved and know they're loved. I would like to think that's pretty obvious, but there's a lot of kids who don't feel like they're loved. And then the fifth thing is

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:00.505)
Yes, they are. Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:08.687)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:20.835)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (06:25.516)
They need to go through healthy transitions from child. They need to go through a healthy rite of passage, basically, because all of our children are going to go through a rite of passage that will transform them from a child to a young adult. But unfortunately, most of them will end up creating their own. And that can often be disastrous. They might get drunk and crash their car. They might, you know, get into drugs. They might have an inappropriate first sexual experience.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:30.81)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:43.513)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (06:55.136)
All of these things are happening and have a negative impact on them potentially for the rest of their lives. So my work is about how can we do these rites of passage, which they're all going to go through, in a healthy way? How can we take them away, create a healthy transformation, and then help them to integrate back into their community as young adults?

Kyle and Sara Wester (06:55.503)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:17.027)
Yeah, I I wanna really affirm what you're saying too. I mean, with all the the teenagers I see, you you see them trying

To almost have these rites of passages. And it ends up looking like I saw porn for the first time, or I I stole something from the store, you know, or or like you said, or you said I'm driving erratically and I'm getting tickets, you know, and all this. It's almost like this is what it's like to grow up. And of course, getting drunk or or smoking pot for the first time, all these kind of things, they they think these are gonna.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (07:34.392)
That's right.

Kyle and Sara Wester (07:48.16)
show that they're more grown up because they did these things. And as I'm listening to you can hear them like they want what you're saying. They're like, they want to be seen, they want to be loved, they want to belong. so how how how would you suggest those rites of passage can be done? You know, like obviously you you take groups and I want to hear what you do with the groups, but then also how can families do this stuff? How how can they do this with their kids?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (08:07.618)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (08:11.01)
Yeah. And and if we just wind back a sec to what you were saying about how they're wanting it, there's an old African proverb which says that if we don't initiate, if we don't create rites of passage for our children, they will burn down the village to feel the heat.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:27.15)
Wow. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (08:29.378)
You know, they they need it. And if we don't create it, they'll go and do it with no supervision and no understanding of what they're doing, and they'll push those limits, that's for sure. Yeah. So so once again, my work has been around, okay, so how do we do this and and how do we make it practical so that everyone can do it? Because we want rites of passage to be mainstream. So if we look at those three stages: separation, transformation, and integration. Separation means we take them away somewhere, and that can be.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:31.011)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (08:50.478)
Okay. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (08:58.636)
Away for a weekend, it can be for a week, it can be on a journey. There's there's lots of different ways that that can happen. And we also, by the way, do a lot of work in schools because they have school camps. And that's a great opportunity when you have the kids away at around 15, 16, to not just do activities, but to create some sort of personal transformational process. So a lot of my research has been in what do you do in the transformation? How do you actually create the transformation?

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:10.023)
yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:20.858)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (09:26.372)
Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (09:28.866)
So the first thing is you you try and make a good container. And what I mean by that is they go away and you try and keep them away so that they can really be in that process. And the people who are involved in the process know about it, and you're actually intentionally doing something where you're saying, we are marking a moment where you're moving from child to young adult, and this is the moment, this is the time. And then

There are always the same four elements that are used in that period of transformation, in that container, to create the shift. And the first is the sharing of stories. So when children get to hear the stories of of adults, whether it's their own parents or their c community elders, that is the best way of passing on wisdom and knowledge.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:08.557)
Mm.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (10:25.25)
They don't want to be told how to live their lives. They're not interested in that from adults anymore. We know that. But they're super interested in stories. So, for example, as we speak, I have a a program running on my property about half a mile away with 80 men and boys. And every day they'll be sitting in a circle, man, boy, man, boy, man, boy. And on the first night, the men will share a story about what it was like for them when they were the age their boys are now.

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:28.417)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (10:54.956)
And what was their relationship like with their father? And I know, I know that up to half of those big, strong, tough Australian men will cry because they had such an unsatisfactory relationship with their fathers. And I know that those boys will sit there for two hours just listening. And and then at the end, when we say to the boys, if you become a father, what would you like your son or daughter to say about their relationship with you?

Kyle and Sara Wester (10:58.027)
Mm, man. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:05.593)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (11:24.716)
And what they tell us is beautiful. So we know they're listening, they're taking it in, they're hearing the stories, good or bad. Most of them are not great. Now and again there's a really good one. And they're going, when I'm a father, I want to be a good father. And so it's so and an and a and on a mother-daughter program, similarly, the mothers share in front of all the girls what was like when they were that age, the insecurities they had, how their own relationship was with their mother and their father and

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:33.369)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (11:53.26)
And the girls get to think about, you know, and another day there'll be a discussion on successes and failures. There'll be a discussion on grief and loss. There'll be a discussion on the impact of addictions. And so in all of these, the

Kyle and Sara Wester (11:59.63)
Mm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (12:03.075)
Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Whew. Man, they they're they're gonna see all that vulnerability, man. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (12:12.562)
absolutely. And they see the vulnerability. Because also one of our great dangers is kids think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. So they hide it and then they get in trouble. So sharing of stories is first of all a great way of passing on wisdom and knowledge. They also share their story the young ones share their own stories with each other. And when we know someone else's story, that's when we have empathy. That's when we feel a sense of connection.

Kyle and Sara Wester (12:19.843)
Yes. Exactly. Yep. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (12:40.696)
So, in terms of building that healthy sense of belonging, the more we can get them to share their stories with each other, the more we're building community and creating that sense of belonging. So that's the first thing that always happens. The second thing that always happens on a rite of passage is there has to be some sort of challenge. They want a challenge. And you talked about with your boy about doing the climbs up the, you know, the peaks and those sorts of things. So we have to create.

Kyle and Sara Wester (12:50.595)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:00.229)
Hm. Yeah. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (13:09.75)
A challenge for them. And it has to be an appropriate challenge. And it has to be a challenge that is appropriate for the times that we live in. And for me, I think one of the biggest challenges in our time is whether we're going to have a world in 50 years, whether we're going to have a healthy place to live for our own children and grandchildren. So a part of our challenge is getting them to really think about.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:13.815)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:31.353)
Yes, yeah. Yep.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (13:37.762)
What sort of adult are you going to be? Are you going to be someone who contributes to the world in a positive way or someone who just takes from the world? so there's always a challenge and there's lots of different ways we can create them. So we've had story and challenge. The third thing we always do is we do we give them some s some time it on one of the towards the end of the program to create a vision to either draw or make out of clay or sticks and stones, a vision.

Kyle and Sara Wester (13:44.889)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:03.077)
Yes, we look at that. Yes. Wow. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (14:07.734)
Of what sort of adult they want to be in 10 years' time. And it's amazing. They all make visions with little families and houses and community and nature. You know, they don't make visions with dollar signs and big cars and, you know, they make wholesome visions. It's extraordinary. So that's the third one: creating a vision. And the fourth one is

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:10.799)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:17.365)
cool. That's so fun. Yes. Man.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (14:35.818)
I I call it recognition of spirit. And what I mean by that is the indigenous communities I work with, they all believe that every child is born different. And every child has a different a spirit. And or you don't have to call it spirit. You can call it their natural gifts and talents, their genius. And one of our most important roles as as parents, elders, caregivers is to bring out the gifts, the talents, the genius, the spirit from each child.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:38.501)
Okay. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (14:45.187)
Mm, yeah, yep. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Exactly. Yep. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:01.101)
Yes. What w what what to cultivate that, to help that grow. Yeah. And to see it. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (15:06.158)
Correct. And for them to know that we see it and we love it. Like we actually love them for who they are rather than them having to be someone else. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so today, today, potentially as we speak, this is extraordinary timing, guys. We have a chair down there, which is actually a big rock that shaped like a chair, and one at a time.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:12.356)
Yeah.

Geez. Where were you when I was a kid, Dr. Rubenstein? What were you That sounds amazing. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:29.037)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (15:36.578)
Those boys or young men will sit in that chair, and in front of the whole community, their father will come and stand in front of them and tell them things that they love about them, that they're proud of, and where they see it. And then one of the facilitators will do one of the same thing. And then one of the other men who's been watching the boys, and potentially some of the boys will do it. So that young man will be honored and recognized.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:49.945)
Woo! Wow.

Kyle and Sara Wester (15:59.354)
Yes. Man.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (16:04.77)
for his gifts, talents, genius and spirit, and feel loved for it.

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:05.029)
So cool.

Man. Yeah, you you know, you know, I want to tell you, just a few weeks ago was my son's 14th birthday. And we did something similar to this where I told everybody, it was all family and friends who came to the birthday party. I wanted them all, I wanted them all to be ready to share what they see about our son and what what you know what they've noticed about the time that they spent with him.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (16:20.792)
Brilliant. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (16:30.037)
And it was very moving. It was very moving. Like I there was actually one point where a a family member who's like married to my it's like my niece's husband, he spoke up and he said, Listen, Brennan, I don't know you that that well, but I hope you know that what is happening here is very special. He said, Like, if I if someone would if someone would have done this to me at thirteen, this would have changed my life. That's what he said. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (16:49.272)
Correct.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (16:55.406)
Correct. How fabulous. I completely agree. And I'll tell you something else. I can't tell you how many boys and young men I've had come up to me after this process and say, thank you. I've never had anything like that in my life. All I ever get told is how shit I am. You know, look at the difference. Look at the difference. One, you're just getting told how shit you are, and the other is people are recognizing your gifts, your genius, your spirit, and uplifting you.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:11.651)
Yes, yes, yep. I know. I know. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:24.003)
Yeah. Well Yeah, yeah. Do you find

Dr Arne Rubinstein (17:24.128)
It does, it changes their lives.

So they are when we do those four things, when we do sharing of stories, creating an appropriate challenge, making a vision, and honoring and recognizing each of them, I know that that creates a transformation. That changes something in.

Kyle and Sara Wester (17:44.996)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is going to, for sure. Yes. Mm-hmm. I was as I listen, I I remind when I was looking through your stuff, I loved what you were pointing out about the importance of human connection. And that's something that's come up a lot for us lately is just how digital our world is and how you know, you you even see a group of teenagers, even if they're together, they're like that looking at their phones, you know.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (18:11.889)
my god. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (18:13.087)
And and I hear in all of this experience that you're talking about, that human connection and just the the power of someone looking at you, especially this grown adult and kind of speaking that I see you, I see this about you, and kind of calling that, you know, what's inside of them. And it's just man, as you're talking, it was so moving. I can't imagine having had that as a as a teenager. Is this something

You're doing these big events, you know, and as a parent I think, okay, if I don't have access to that, I mean, is there another way it could look? Is there a way I can, you know, what do I do? Is this something that just happens at a certain time? Is it something you build through their teenage years? Yeah, like a perfect age. Yes, I I'm just kinda, you know, for we have a lot of parents all over the world listening.

to this. So and and as a parent myself, I'm thinking, Okay, how how do I do this? You know? And I know how we're kind of creating it, but I'd love to hear your thoughts and how you it's great, these big events and and what do a parent do with that, you know?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (19:08.376)
Sure.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (19:16.888)
Sure. Well, it's it's such an important question because we don't want someone to leave a a podcast like this and go, well, that's amazing, but I can't do it. I want people to go, hey, we actually could do this and we can, we can create this. And, you know, I've been doing this for thirty years in Australia and we've now set up programs in probably 70 places around Australia, including, you know, multiple schools and twenty-five countries around the world where programs are now happening, including in the United States.

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:25.187)
That's that's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (19:45.652)
there's a big program on Vashon Island outside of Seattle. But in a nutshell, the first thing is about understanding the framework. Understanding we have to create a separation. Okay, we can take our kid away and maybe they're not going on a whole big camp, but we could get the imp their family members, the important people and go somewhere f you could do it for a day. You could do it for a weekend. You could do it for a week. Wha wha w you know, I I have people who

Kyle and Sara Wester (19:49.111)
Okay. wow.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (20:11.234)
Take their son or their daughter on a journey for three to six months, traveling around the country or overseas. So yeah, depending on what space that you have, you can make it happen. And then within that space, finding a way to share stories and finding creating an appropriate challenge and doing a vision process. You know, it's not hard to sit down, get out some paper and some colored markers and go, all right, let's sit quietly for.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:16.941)
That'd amazing. Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (20:39.618)
five minutes and then let's draw how we want our lives to be in seven years time. And also include it in that, how do we want our relationship to be in seven years time? Both of us. So however you do it, and then you can do an honoring process at some stage, you might do it around a fire. You might do it at after a dinner, special dinner, you might do it, you might go for a walk somewhere and sit down and you know and and it might be the

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:43.993)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (20:50.627)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (21:07.624)
just the dad or the just the mum or mum and dad or all the family members or you might pull in grandparents and aunties and uncles and people who are special in your son or daughter's life. And you know, you can't do too much honoring by the way. And you know, so so it it is Yeah. So so it is directly translatable and and it can be done. and

Kyle and Sara Wester (21:22.199)
Yes, I love that. You can't do too much on me. That's a great quote. Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (21:33.46)
one of our aims is to support people in doing this work. And and my main job now, I run leadership trainings in Australia and around the world. But we also developed an online leadership training, which people can do and they can do it self-paced. Or we we have ones where we have live master classes where I'll come on and do four, two hour sessions and and training people in the right of passage process. And and and in our course they also get a template

So that they can actually design a rite of passage for their son or daughter. So so it can be anywhere from a small family unit to a a a school group to an enormous, you know, as big as you want. As long as in my experience, you stick to the framework, then it really works. I know that. I've been doing it for 35 years.

Kyle and Sara Wester (22:28.185)
Man, that sounds exciting. That sounds exciting. I hope every parent is like okay, I'll go ahead and do that. That sounds really cool. But I I wanna i is there is there like a specific age you would say that you would be a a good time to start or you know.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (22:41.346)
Yeah. Yeah. It's more than it's it's not purely an age, it's more a stage. But that stage for boys is is is somewhere around fourteen to seventeen. And for girls is probably a year younger, to be honest. And it's more sort of a knowing. You know, when they tell you they hate you and they never want to speak to you again and they lock the bathroom door, that's when you know it's probably getting towards that time. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:09.487)
We've hit the stage. Yes, that's funny.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (23:11.404)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't want to do it when they're too young. In and in fact, in a lot of the traditional communities, it wasn't the parents who decided when they were ready. Because the parents would either want to get them in too early. yeah, my kid's ready to become an adult. Or they'd want to hold on to them. No, no, no, they're not ready. Let them stay in my bed a bit longer. You know. But the grandparents would say, Yeah, he's ready. Or the elders would see them in the streets and say, Yeah, yeah, they're ready. So

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:14.733)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:21.058)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:28.815)
Yes. That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (23:39.616)
It's when they're stuck, you know, it's when you're really noticing their behavior changing. And then I would recommend give it another six, twelve months. Because we actually want them to have had a few tricky times. We want them to have experienced a bit of life outside of the immediate family circle and everything that that offers, including the safety. Because then when it's happening, they actually really connect with it.

Kyle and Sara Wester (23:54.221)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:02.735)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (24:09.336)
And they Yeah, I am. They they know they're moving into the adult world. Yeah. And they also feel lost.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:09.699)
Yeah. Yeah, they get it. Yeah. Is it hard Yeah. Is it hard to get their buy-in? Or do kid do you find that they're pretty excited about it?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (24:20.354)
Well

Dr Arne Rubinstein (24:24.022)
No, no, it's well it's a mix. It is hard to get their buy in. you know, with the boys that we've got you know, probably half of them don't want to be there. You know, they want to be on their phones, they wanna be playing video games, you know. But you can usually get the boys to come along and you know, they'll do it. I always say with the girls, if they don't want to go, they will burn down the house before they'll go.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:26.423)
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:35.237)
yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:43.287)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (24:54.006)
It's just my personal experience of, you know, what happens out there. And so in many ways, I think with the girls, you know, doing it younger and even having women other than their mothers involved as well, that really enrolls the girls. But also the more it's in the community, the easier it gets. So in a traditional in a in a traditional community, you didn't ask a kid if they wanted to go through their rite of passage and become an adult. They'd just go and grab them in the middle of the night.

Kyle and Sara Wester (24:56.173)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:07.279)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:14.629)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:20.869)
It's true. That's true. Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (25:24.14)
You know, these days you have to say, excuse me, we'd like you to become an adult. Is that okay with you? You know, to a kid who's on their mobile phone playing bloody video games and whatever. So, you know, it's a tricky one. And I always say, when they're young, when they're children, we make the decisions for them. When they're adults, they're gonna make their own. And there has to be a turning point, and maybe this is it. And this

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:32.039)
huh.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:50.405)
Sure. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (25:52.536)
could be the last major decision you'll ever make for your child.

Kyle and Sara Wester (25:54.79)
Mm. That is interesting. What what what could you tell me what are some mistakes that people make? Like you talked about earlier, sometimes going too early or holding on too long. Are there other mistakes that you would say, hey, if you're doing this with your kid, watch out for these kind of pitfalls that people tend to fall into?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (26:11.512)
Yeah, yeah.

Look, I I I do think it's really good to involve people who are outside of the immediate family. because, you know, traditionally a parent was not even present at their child's rite of passage. But we're in a different world now, and and I do think it's it's great to have the parents there. But getting some help is a really good thing and and and really understanding what you're doing, you know, it's not

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:21.509)
Okay, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:27.247)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (26:44.224)
just about climbing a mountain coming down and and you're a man or you're a you're an adult, you know, they're great things to do, but it's really for me really important to have all of those pieces in there, the stories, the challenge, the vision, and the honoring. The other thing that most people are not aware of is that when your child goes through their rite of passage, you as parents also need to go through your rite of passage because you're letting them go. You know

Kyle and Sara Wester (26:46.467)
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:09.541)
Mm. Good point. Yeah. man. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (27:13.524)
You're you're letting go of control and decision making on their behalf. And that's actually moving you up the staircase, which ends in, you know, elderhood and eventually death. And most people in our society don't want to go up that staircase. You know, they want to pretend their way down the staircase. and so if the parents don't change at the same time, it actually pushes the children back.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:18.82)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:27.278)
Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (27:43.512)
the you know, the young adults back into that child behaviour.

Kyle and Sara Wester (27:44.846)
Yes. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Well what they just go back they go back to the same old dance they were already doing. Right. So so you're you're what I love what I love what's so beautiful about that, it really speaks to the heart of our podcast. Like our our our podcast, what what we talk to our listeners a lot about is that change starts with us.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (27:51.192)
Correct. Correct.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:04.025)
You know, change starts with me. So so it's not about how do we fix our kid? It's like what what what what can I do differently in me that then can help my kid, right? So in this process of like you saying a really to do the rite of passage journey correctly, it should be a journey for you too. And if you think it's all about it's all about just growing up your kid and making them more mature, you're you're probably just gonna get resistance. You're gonna get, you know.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (28:13.013)
Absolutely.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (28:23.512)
Correct.

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:32.249)
More defiance from the kid. Yeah, it's just gonna go back to old old patterns. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's true. Yeah. Yeah, because the kid will think you think I'm Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well it

Dr Arne Rubinstein (28:35.916)
All of that, it's not going to go well. You're actually likely to start a war in the ho in the home. Which is what commonly happens. Yeah. And so if you think back on the framework, you know, the parent having the opportunity to vulnerably s share their stories in front of their children is as valuable for the parent as it is for the child. You know, we have parents who share stuff they've never talked about, but that's still alive in them and impacting them. So that's incredibly powerful. The challenge

Kyle and Sara Wester (28:55.575)
Mm, mm, hm, mm, yeah, yeah, that is.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (29:05.772)
The challenge where the the children are thinking about who they want to become and what they need to let go of. We need to do that as well. Who do I want to become as I become an elder? What behaviors do I need to let go of? Why shouldn't I have a vision? You know, I can create a vision for the last, you know, the this next part in my life. And also, in terms of the recognition of spirit, you know, I have gifts and things to offer the community, but they're different.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:13.476)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:18.339)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (29:33.634)
from how they were when I was 15 or 30 or, you know. So when the that's why we run a lot of our programs parent child together, so that they both go through the transformation. And in the programs that we support, for example, in schools, where it's just the the children who go away, we have a parallel program happening with the parents. and and what's really important is I said the third stage of a rite of passage is integration.

Kyle and Sara Wester (29:56.39)
Cool. That's fun.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:02.991)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (30:03.074)
So it's not return, it's integration. We don't want them to return to where they were before. We want them to integrate into a different way of being and a different relationship with themselves and their community.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:18.093)
Yeah. Man. Well, and just to reiterate those, those three are separation, transformation, and integration, right?

Dr Arne Rubinstein (30:26.702)
Correct. And within transformation there's story, challenge, vision, and recognition of spirit or gifts and talents.

Kyle and Sara Wester (30:34.829)
That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's so good. Wow, that I I almost think the parent part is more important. You know, because how many times do we do we find ourselves, you know, holding our kid, you know, kind of getting in the way of our kid? You know? And we have to we watch them grow up and so much we're thinking, they need to grow up, they need to learn this, they need to do that, they need to go.

And how much we need to turn that on ourselves because we are in this process of raising them and that whole now now helping them transition and and it the whole time it's a transition for us. Yeah. We have to do the work. And I love that you're highlighting that. That's that's hard. It's intimidating, you know, to be that because you get back home. And I would just think it's so easy to fall into what was. Yeah. You know.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (31:13.805)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (31:20.066)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (31:27.106)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (31:28.025)
What can what do you have any tips for parents like how they can get back home and, you know,

Stay in that space that you you know what's happening in that, you know. Well it kind of reminds me of you sometimes you go away to camp and you have this like high experience. And like I know as a kid, I'd be like, I'm gonna come back different. I'm gonna be more responsible. I'm gonna do my chores and I'm not gonna argue with my parents. But then within like three days, it's back to the same because because the parents weren't on that journey. Yeah, it was just something I went on. And then you'd be like,

Dr Arne Rubinstein (31:58.498)
Correct.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:00.293)
Well that whole freaking thing sucked because I I didn't ch it didn't change anything at all.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (32:03.138)
That's right. It's yeah, you you can actually go into quite a state of depression because you've done all this work, you've seen yourself, you've grown, and then no one recognizes you as being different. They just want you to be or they treat you how you were, and that actually creates a wounding. So having the parents in involved is really important. Having their understanding, making joint commitments, making

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:08.141)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:14.373)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:18.649)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (32:31.288)
You know, having stuff written down. And and actually on our programs now, we give the parents and children a program to do at home for six weeks once a week. So, you know, one of the first things we teach them is how to do a check-in and we encourage and we give them a talking stick and we encourage them once a week at dinner to do a check-in. Each member of the family gets to share how they're going, what's been going well, anything that's been tricky, anything, you know.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:33.401)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:39.939)
Good. Okay. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (32:50.159)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (33:00.162)
weird or unusual going on, and the rest of the family just listens. And then the next kid, and then the next kid, and you know, and then the parents, or in any order, and anyone who's at the table. So that's that's the sort of thing. And they make a vision together and they talk about privileges and responsibilities and what privileges the the the young now young adults want, but what responsibilities they're going to take if they get those privileges. So the more we can integrate it well,

And integration is the hardest thing to do well, because this work is actually not about how you are on the last day of the camp. That's not when the work ends. That's when it starts. It's what you're able to take home and continue with that's really important.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:32.985)
Yeah, I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (33:47.758)
Yeah. Did now do you and I I'm I'm asking this because I might want to steal it for my own kids, but do do you ever end with like a a meaningful token or a meaningful like you know, some you know sometimes programs like this you'll have like a a a a special knife, you know, or like a coin or I didn't know if you had something that you guys do for your

Dr Arne Rubinstein (34:03.544)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, you're not allowed to steal it. You can have it. Our our our model is open source. We want everyone to have it. So I'll tell you how we finish our programs. I'll tell you how we finish th this father son programme I'm talking about. Tomorrow, all the men, young and old, will walk back at about at forty five minutes an hour to a big hall.

Kyle and Sara Wester (34:11.363)
Okay. That's right. Yes, that's good. That's good. Yes, good. Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (34:30.678)
And all the families will be there, all the mothers will be there, heaps of people from the community will be there. And there'll be a big welcome ceremony. And as part of that ceremony, each of the young men will step forward one at a time. And then one of the facilitators will present that young man in front of the whole community and share with the community some of the gifts that they see that's in that young man. And and for the for the

you know, the families and community members watching it's amazing because they go, the young man's been seen. How fantastic. And then the young man will state publicly to everyone a commitment that he's made that he's going to change that will be good for himself or good for others. And they say the most beautiful things. They say things like, I'm going to stop judging people when I first meet them and give them a chance and get them to know them first. I'm going to try new things rather than just say no because

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:15.533)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (35:27.042)
I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it or not. I'm gonna stop procrastinating when I come home and put my phone aside and get my work done before I get on video games. You know, I'm gonna stop bashing up my little brother or sister and actually be not, you know. It's amazing. And the other thing is each of them get presented with a necklace that has a it's the same arrow shape. And so for many, many years they've been getting necklaces and the idea is that when they walk around the street,

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:29.476)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:34.607)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:46.498)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:49.977)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (35:55.29)
Yeah. cool. Yes. Yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (35:55.31)
If they see someone else with that necklace, they know they've been on the program. In the early days, 30 years ago, we used to give them a knife. but now they've made in Australia it's illegal to carry knives unless you have a reason. And so we thought, well, we wouldn't want 60 minutes to come on and say Dr. Rubenstein's organization is arming the young adults of Australia with knives. That's right.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:09.797)
Okay. Yes. Yeah. Got it.

That's right. He's making a militant group of men to fight. Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (36:23.362)
That's right. So whether I agree with it or not, you know, the rite of passage has to be appropriate. And so they get a they get this necklace. And and we also say to the fathers, you may have some sort of family like heirloom that you would like to pass on to your child, and this could be a good time. It might be an old watch, it might be something from a grandfather, it could be, you know, anything. And if if you were gonna do something like that, this could be a good time.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:25.805)
huh. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:38.649)
Yes, that's yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (36:50.211)
Yes, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah I I I wanted to to point out something too that I I've heard, but I've also noticed and maybe you've noticed this too, is that because of the lack of rite of passages, specifically I'm talking about in America, a lot of I one time I heard it in a movie where I think it was Ben Stiller who was saying he feels like he's a boy trapped in a man's body.

And and and when I heard that, I really resonated with that because there's many ways when we first got married that being a husband to her, and then eventually like being a dad, I was like, I'm not equipped for this. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm still so immature in so many ways. And it wasn't till like my mid-thirties.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (37:13.697)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (37:32.611)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (37:34.458)
When I when I actually did something courageous, I actually quit my job and started the private practice that I run today. And there were some men who journeyed with me through that because it was very scary. And I and I remember specifically, and this, you know, once again, my late thirties, this is when this happened. I remember coming out of that just feeling so different.

Like that, I had done something really scary, but I didn't do it alone. I did it with other men who were very open and vulnerable with me. And I felt like something shifted in me. And I'm I'm I'm hoping that's what's happening in my son and these boys that and and girls that you're working with. But but have you noticed that? These these boys who are trapped in men's bodies. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (37:54.382)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (38:10.765)
Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (38:15.278)
Have I noticed that? I I look at many of our global leaders and I go, you know, are we being led by healthy men or are we being led by boys? And, you know, even what you describe. So healthy, and I wrote a whole model on the difference between boy behavior or boy psychology and healthy man behavior and psychology. It's in my book, The Making of Men. And I can actually send you a copy of it if you want to put it on the links that people can get.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:23.514)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:39.117)
Okay.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:42.926)
we'd love to. we'd love to. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (38:44.408)
the the the model. And there's also a girl to woman model and child to adult. and so healthy men support each other. Boys and unhealthy men compete with each other.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:50.06)
great. Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (38:59.397)
yeah, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (39:01.634)
So what you talked about with having gone through something scary with other men who supported you and and it was therefore able to have that impact, that's a really actually a beautiful anecdote.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:06.179)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Kyle and Sara Wester (39:18.787)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. I want to highlight girls for a second. You I love all the stuff you said and man, it's so moving. you talked a little bit about when they're young. What do you see in women? if that makes sense, like you said, you talked about how the boys and then when they're men, there's some differences there. And your work with women and your work with girls and helping them go through this, what do you notice? What do you see?

happening there. Does does that make sense kind of as you were highlighting the boys, I'd like to hear more about the girls.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (39:48.428)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Look, I I in in the last ten years I've probably focused my energy more on girls than boys because I have a huge concern for the girls and their mental health issues and the pressure that's on them to look a certain way, to act a certain way. It's not only boys who are watching porn, it's girls who are watching as well. And they believe it's real and they believe that's what they're supposed to be doing, and on so many levels.

Kyle and Sara Wester (40:12.579)
Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (40:20.886)
It's such a problem. And so I absolutely believe that girls need to go through a healthy rite of passage as well. And that many girls go through very unhealthy rites of passage that transform them into young women and they regret it for the rest of their lives. so I absolutely believe we can be creating and I know, I mean, I work in the largest single sex school in Australia with two and a half thousand girls, and they had three suicides in twelve months.

Kyle and Sara Wester (40:34.937)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (40:48.602)
wow.

May have

Dr Arne Rubinstein (40:51.328)
And and on the day after the last one, the headmistress rang me and said, you know, can you help us? And and they and then she actually went out and I helped her in the visioning process. They bought a retreat center and now all the girls go down in groups for one month at as fift in in their year nine, which is fifteen years of age here in Australia, they go and they spend a month at the retreat center with no phones, they don't do schoolwork, they go through a rite of passage.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:16.143)
Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Man.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (41:21.272)
So girls need it absolutely as much as boys do. And we and the framework is just as applicable, but it has to be modified, but it's just as applicable, you know, in terms of it's for girls, it's not for boys, you know. Where the boys, the best challenge may be, you know, climbing a big mountain. You know, the girls, yes, we want them to get in touch with their powerful side, but we also want to get them to get more and more in touch with their inside.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:36.399)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:42.563)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:51.364)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (41:51.522)
You know, and their inner knowing and their inner voice. so there are differences there. and you know, in terms of some of the elements of the girl versus woman, we talk about how girls, it's all about external validation. People telling them how good they are, how pretty they are, how whereas hopefully in healthy women the validation comes from inside. I think that's

Kyle and Sara Wester (41:55.333)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:10.179)
Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:13.487)
Yes, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:20.022)
Mm-hmm.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (42:21.206)
a really big one. and also there's a a part of the model which talks about girls either care completely about themselves or completely about others. That's whereas hopefully in healthy women we can balance care for self and others. so yeah so so there are all these things and

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:34.605)
Mm. Mm, okay, yeah. Yeah. That's good.

Kyle and Sara Wester (42:44.567)
Yeah. That's been Yeah, that that's really good. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (42:50.006)
And look, I'll tell you one one more thing that I've the beauty for me in rites of passage is it I just keep going deeper and deeper into it. And one of the things I realized is with the boys' rites of passage, one of the core aims was to humble them. And by that I mean to humble them so that when they became men and had power, whatever amount they had, they realized it wasn't just about them, it was actually.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:07.183)
Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:14.435)
Yes. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (43:19.778)
For the good of their community. And when we don't do that humbling process, the danger is that those boys, as men, become arrogant and entitled.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:21.593)
That's so cool. Yes. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:32.611)
Hmm, yes.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (43:34.432)
And I know that women listening to this will know what I'm talking about here. And we don't need or want arrogant entitled men as fathers, community leaders, or global leaders. And for the girls, one of the main aims of the rite of passage was to empower them. And when we don't create the rite of passage in a healthy way and the girls are not empowered, they end up playing small.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:38.285)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (43:45.337)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (44:04.898)
And they think that boys and men are more important. And that affects how they dress. That affects what they eat. That affects what job they go for. It affects everything in who they have a relationship with. Because they're doing it from a small place rather than having this deep inner knowing that they are powerful and amazing and have so much to offer. So it's like, my gosh, I think

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:09.061)
So good. Man. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Dr Arne Rubinstein (44:31.308)
We're not doing rites of passage. We've got way too many entitled, arrogant men, and we've got way too many fabulous women who who don't realize that. And imagine if we could be creating healthy rites of passage and, you know, end up with a world.

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:40.931)
Yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:51.076)
Yes.

Kyle and Sara Wester (44:55.363)
Yeah. That's exactly what I was gonna say. You that's I was thinking I I was gonna wrap it up with that 'cause that sounds like a great vision for our world. And so, Dr. Rubenstein, man, this has been so so good. How can people find out more about your work if they're interested in and joining some of these groups or also just doing some of their own in their house at their families?

Kyle and Sara Wester (45:26.031)
Yeah, yeah.

Okay, nice one to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (45:40.153)
Yes. Great.

Kyle and Sara Wester (45:52.131)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle and Sara Wester (46:03.577)
That that's so awesome. So once again, thank you. I know you're busy right in the middle of a camp. And we're really thankful for you taking the time to share this info. And we are huge champions of the work you're doing. And so we will continue spreading the word as well. And I hope every parent listening to this has been inspired to say, I want to do that with my kids. And it's never too late. Don't worry about them being too old. I'm telling you the kids.

that that they will be appreciative that you took the effort to be intentional with this. So so we hope you have a great camp and thank you so much for joining us.

Kyle and Sara Wester (46:43.952)
Thank you. Have a great day.